Thukydides

2 hours ago, jpalmer1970 said:

The painting of the hull is a bit daunting as I know it is so easy to muck it up at any stage, but on the other hand it is easy to sand it all back and start again, even if that is a bit depressing!

That is the beaty of painting larger wooden surfaces. You can even go part way and just sand a bit to get it smooth and then add another coat. Lots of thin coats is the way to go. It takes longer, but will look much nicer.

I have been slowly picking away at the blocks and now have all the single blocks with the gun tackle ropes attached to them done.

Now just 20 more double blocks to be done. They should take less time as I am much faster at doing these than when I started and not having to attach the rope does speed things up a bit.

27 minutes ago, mrt88 said:

Would I need anything else to thin down the planks at each end or is it just a case of sanding them ? 

Do you mean taper the planks? If so i just used an exacto knife. If you look at glenn’s build log he likely detailed the process. If not you can take a look at my build log. Not the same kit, but also a cutter and the process is pretty much the same.

Welcome to MSW.

As for a recommendation, I am enjoying alert (first time builder), it is a great model and there are lots of build logs to follow along with.

Log #45: Blocks for the Gun Tackle

Thanks to everyone who has stopped by. I am beginning to understand why some people hate rigging the guns. Even for a ship as small as Alert I need to prep 48 very tiny blocks :). That being said I really do prefer the look of cannons that have been rigged and so having done a few test version, I have moved into mass production.

Step 1 is to get the block, hook and cut off a 30mm piece of 0.25mm rope. I experimented a bit and found that any less than 30mm made life very hard.

I then made a small knot in the rope (this picture is an older one, I forgot to take a picture of this step). I found doing the knot and then pulling it tight around the block was easier than trying to do the knot afterwards.

I then pulled the knot mostly closed, but left a small gap. Into this I inserted the end of the gun tackle. A small dot of super glue was added with a sewing pin and then I pulled the knot tight.

Once this dried I used some matt varnish and secured the end of the gun tackle to itself. I did not attempt to do more than a cursory imitation of a splice as this will all be hidden once the tackle is on the model.

Then with the line secure I flipped the block over and slipped the hook onto one of the two ends of the rope running around the block. At this time I also used a small dot of super glue to secure the knot on the top of the block.

Then using tweezers I inserted the other end of the rope into the hook from the opposite side. Once it was through the hook I looped it through the gap at the bottom to make another knot.

Another small dot of super glue was applied to the inside of the hook and the knot was bulled tight. Once dry I also covered all the knots with varnish both to hide the super glue shine and also to make sure that everything was secure.

Then into the bag with the other finished blocks. Half of them have the gun tackle attached and the other half do not. The process for those that don’t is pretty much the same, just the first few steps are a bit easier.

I still need to cut off the ends and add a little bit of seizing, but I don’t like doing this until I am sure everything is fully dry so I will wait till I have them all done before doing this step.

Seven done, fourty-one to go.

Looks fantastic. I agree a bit more colour variation may help. Try to make things a bit wavy. Water distorts light. Also consider making the transition less of a straight line. Notice how in your reference photo some of the lighter bits extend deeper into the water.

If you want to further break things up you could add a rock or two sticking  up just off the shore. Again see your reference photo for inspiration.

I like what you did with the rocks. I think they look just right now.

Overall great job with the painting.

Wow this is fantastic, I would have never have guessed this was card from the photos.

Fantastic job!

Time for another minor update. I am making faster progress than I thought and have all the breaching ropes done. I then attached all the deck fittings as the gun tackle will be done on a jig and then just hooked in so I am not as worried about things getting in the way.

17 minutes ago, BenD said:

This is totally how polyester behaves. One thing I've found about rope made with Gutermann E thread is it takes CA glue really well.

Yes I have found that very small amounts of CA seem to hold it well. Also I am happy to take these problems to avoid the issue of fuzz.

19 minutes ago, BenD said:

Another way to shape this rope is to use "super thin" CA, it goes right into the rope and then holds whatever shape you want. You will need a good applicator to pull this off. 

I always worry about using thin CA as I have trouble controlling it. Also I would worry it would make the rope too brittle.

Log #44: Hiding the Super Glue Spots

I managed to get a bunch of work done on the model today and so I figured I do another short update expanding on how I went about making the breaching ropes lie properly. The polyester rope has many of advantages, but there are two big disadvantages to it that i have found.

1. It is very stiff and doesn’t like to be shaped unless you want to use heat (which I don’t want to bring near the model itself).
2. It doesn’t adhere very well to white glue.

The combination of these two issues mean I need a way of tacking it in place, but with a glue that adheres quickly and well. I have not been able to come up with an alternative to super glue for this. However, as you can see in the picture below, even if i am neat you can see the spots of super glue.

The solution to this is to use ultra matt varnish to help cover over these shiny spots and to apply the final shape to the rope. The varnish can’t be used right from the beginning because it doesn’t adhere super well to the deck (where I applied the oil based wipe on poly) and it takes a while to dry. But you can see below the same cannon after I used the varnish to apply the final shaping to the rope and to cover over the spots.

It sometimes takes several tries to get it to hide the super glue as you need to apply it in thin layers and you can’t tell if it worked till it dries. I have managed to accomplish this process for half of the guns and will hopefully finish the other half next week.

It is looking really good. If I may make a small suggestion the rocks probably need some sea scum too. It looks a bit odd them being so clean and the base of the wall so dirty.

9 hours ago, Glen McGuire said:

pea gravel I'd carefully selected from a pathway in my backyard.

It is probably fine, but in the future you might want to make sure you treat anything you get from outside before you add it to a model. I have used many outdoor items as basing materials, but I have known people to have mould start growing on their models which is not ideal. I tend to bake outdoor items in the oven for a couple hours to make sure I kill anything that came in with the stones.

Log #43: Rigging the Guns Continued

Thanks for all the comments and likes. I am getting excited to get to the point where everything is in place on the deck.

On 8/31/2023 at 5:18 AM, Jack-in-the-Blue said:

Thanks for the detailed description of your process and the excellent photos. It’s been a very useful and timely tutorial for me, who has ten guns awaiting rigging right now. 👍

I am glad you found it helpful. I find that one of the benefits of documenting the process is it keeps me motivated to keep moving forward. I have learned so much from all the build logs I have read and I hope others can also learn from me muddling through the process of figuring this stuff out.

With the breaching ropes all attached to the cannons, the next step was to attach them to the ship. I found in my experimentation with the first two guns that it was easier to attach the ropes before fixing the cannons in place. There is nothing particularly complicated about this process, just patience, a bit of epoxy and a pair of fine tweezers.

Then using a small bit of super glue on the bottom of each wheel I attached the cannons in place. I also at this time decided to add in the deck fittings that did not stick up too much. The rest will have to wait till I have finished the gun tackle so as not to get in the way.

The next step is to get all the breaching ropes to lie properly. You can see I have done this with the cannon on the top right, but the others don’t look very natural as the rope is not flexible enough to lie naturally. To fix this I use a combination of small dots of super glue to hold specific parts of the rope in place and ultra matt varnish to help hold it in place as I shape it. This is a fairly time consuming process as you need to use very small amounts of glue and varnish to avoid getting it in places you don’t want it to be.

Congrats, this really is an amazing model and you should be proud of it. I particularly like the sheer amount of detail you managed to get into the rigging work. Well done!

Log #42: Mass Production

With two of the breaching ropes attached and the problems ironed out, I have moved to simultaneous production of the remaining guns. This is a general principal that I like to follow. Do an initial test, often redoing it until I am happy. Then do a second to get the process down and then move to mass production.

The first step was to cut all of the breaching ropes to size (as I have already noted 95mm)

Next I attached it at the mid point with a small drop of super glue to the bottom of the cannons.

Once this had dried I wrapped the rope around the and secured it in place with another small drop of super glue.

I then attached the ring bolts to the end of each breaching rope using a small drop of super glue to hold the folded rope in place. To control the super glue I place it on a plastic lid and apply it using sewing pins. I didn’t take any pictures of this part of the process, but what I did was to set my micrometer to 4.5mm and then would place one end of the breaching rope in the gap. Using the micrometer as a guide I then pinched with a pair of small tweezers at the 4.5mm distance and folded the rope over attaching it in place using the super glue. You can see the result of this below.

I had found that the thread I used for the first two cannons was a bit thick so I made it thinner by removing one of the three strands that it was made of. I then used a sewing needle to secure one end of the thread before wrapping it around the breaching rope.

After 4 loops, I tied off the 5th to secure the thread in place. Once both seizings were in place I secured them with some ultra matt varnish. In the picture below the varnish is still wet and looks a bit shiny, but it dries to a clear matt finish.

And below you can see the final result.

I still need to trim the ends and once I have done so I can attach them to the ship. I have also been playing around with the gun tackle and have my first one done. I will discuss my plans for mass producing gun tackle more in a later post.

Looking good. You might want to put some masking tape on your keel. It looks like you may have caught it a bit when you were sanding near where it meets the stern post. I made the mistake of failing to do this for the stern post and ended up thinning it a bit by accident.

3 hours ago, Blue Ensign said:

Picking thro’ my scrap box I came across this little fellow, a six pounder carriage from the cutter Alert.

Hard to believe these two are the same scale.

It really is amazing how much bigger indy is. I am currently working on Alert’s guns and I don’t think it really occurred to me till I saw this picture how much smaller they are.

Time for another minor update as it might be a little while before I have enough progress to justify a full post. I have most of the breaching lines still to do and since I am planning on fully rigging the guns, a lot of hooks to attach to blocks. See below for a preview.

I am using Chuck’s 3mm hooks.

I also having done another blackening session managed to get enough eyebolts done to finish off the bulwarks.

However for some reason none of the brass worked despite the copper eye bolts coming out perfect. The blackening just came right off, something I have never had happen before. I have had blotchiness and parts that didn’t get fully covered, but never every single piece not working out. I currently have them all soaking in acetone just in case there is some sort of coating stoping the blackening from adhering and then I will give them another dip in the pickering solution and try again.

46 minutes ago, Adri said:

Thank you guys!

Definitely i'd have to go for the Speedy, but  >=400€   mhh let's think about it.

If you want to go a bit cheaper, but stick with vanguard, alert is a great kit. Also the new cutter Chris just released (Trial) also looks very interesting.

On 8/4/2023 at 11:13 AM, michael.brandt91 said:

Trying to learn Chick Passaro's Planking method. Tried to lay everything out with string but going to get some tape today. 

Trying to do it right with the first layer of planking will also allow you to get the necessary experience to make the second planking much better. I learned a lot by following Chuck's method on the first planking that helped me when I came to the part that actually shows.

Make sure you get the fairing right, it will make the subsequent planking much easier. I ran into a number of issues which were a direct result of my poor fairing job.

Log #41: Odds and Ends

@jpalmer1970 I have noticed a number of nice looking tools that various people on the forums have used for rigging (fly tying vices, quad hands etc…). I have been tempted, but at this point I am managing to make do with what I have, likely just at a slower pace than I could achieve if I had a more comprehensive setup. I have considered that it shouldn’t be too hard to make something like the quad hands with some alligator clips and shrink tube I have on hand. I may investigate that.

@Theodosius thanks and also thanks to everyone else for all the encouragement. I am really motivated to get these guns done as I am looking forward to seeing what she looks like when I have all the fittings in place.

I continue to pick away at the guns and have completed a second.

Now that I have my process down I have switched to mass producing each stage. So first up I am cutting all of the breaching ropes to size.

You may have also noticed that the 2nd cannon is not attached in the first picture. That is because I ran out of blackened eye bolts and I don’t want to attach the ring bolts the breaching ropes are tied to until the eye bolts are installed. So this necessitates another batch of blackening and while I am at it I am also going to blacken a bunch of other items that need to be done in the near future.

For the metal posts that the railing rope (not sure what this is called) is attached to I decided to file them a bit to try and make them look less flat. This involved filing the sides to make them less thick and then also rounding the corners. You can see how much of a difference  even just this little bit of cleaning up does to them below.

It’s looking good. You are making brisk progress.

Log #40: Rigging the Guns Part II

Part II of my adventure rigging the guns is largely concerned with scrapping what I did in part I and starting again. This seems to be a common occurrence with this whole project so I am used to it at this point.

@Marcus.K. had a great suggestion which really should have occurred to me. In any case when I tested the length against the available room I found that at a number of the ports, the guns would hit the deck fittings when recoiling which is obviously not an ideal scenario. After a bit of experimenting I decided on a revised length of 95mm which is about as long as I can make them and still have some reasonable clearance.

One upside to redoing things is I have a much better process having done it once already and so I figured I would document the steps for the benefit of those who have never attempted this sort of thing before.

Step 1 was to use a small bit of super glue to fix the breaching rope to the bottom of the cascable.

I did consider some alternative methods of attaching the rope (see here for a discussion on it), but in the end I decided to stick with the arrangement as shown in the Goodwin drawings for two main reasons:

1. Attempting something like a cut splice seemed a bit beyond me until I have more experience with ropes at this scale. I might attempt such a thing on a future model, but it seemed wise to set my sites on manageable goals. Doing it this way is very easy.
2. Asthetically I like the look and I suppose I can imagine in my head there is some sort of seizing holding it in place.

I again used a small drop of super glue and let it sit for a few minutes with a small clamp pulling the ropes into place.

For the seizing I decided to use a slightly lighter thread to help it stand out more. I held things in place with a pair of revers tweezers (the kind you squeeze to open) held in my vice.

When doing the seizing, I started by running the thread through the rope using a needle to help hold it in place. Then I wrapped it around and ran the need through again to close it off. I then gave it all a coat of ultra matt varnish to hold it in place before cutting off th ends.

To try and simulate the splicing of the end of the breach road into itself I clipped an angle off of the end to make it appear like it merged in when it was covered by the seizing and attached using varnish. I wanted to take a picture of this, but I was unable to get a good enough image to demonstrate what I did.

And you can see below the finished cannon attached to the model to demonstrate how far it can go back. The breach rope no longer allows the cannon to hit the deck furniture and the lighter thread I think better highlights the way the cannon is attached to the bulwark.

Once the glue for the ring bolts has dried I can fix the cannon in its proper place and try and arrange the breach rope properly. Now I just need to do this 11 more times :).

He doesn't really say much apart from describing the characteristics of the 6 pounders which were installed in 1778 replacing the old 4 pounders.

Yes they are six pounders. I had a post on this topic about a year ago and I think the answers were inconclusive. I was not ultimately able to determine why Goodwin shows double blocks in his AOTS Alert book. If I remember correctly from the discussion Lavery makes some mention of double blocks being used sometimes (but he doesn't elaborate, I will have to double check when I get home) and someone in the thread said Caruna mentions only the larger guns had double blocks.

I still havn't really decided what I am going to do to be honest. I bought the double blocks based on Goodwin before the question arose, but I may go back and get some single blocks instead. Still on the fence on this one.

Thanks so much @allanyed for the response. Alert was launched in 1777 so I guess that would imply one of the latter two methods. However, I am not entirely sure I understand what you mean by them.

I am having trouble picturing what you mean by thimbles attached to the neck of the button.

By spliced eye are you referring to something like the example I cited from glbarlow?