Thukydides

Thanks for the thoughts. I have a copy of Goodwins construction and fitting of the english man of war on the way. I am hoping he may discuss the issue more in it.

@Gregory So if I understand correctly, it seems that the evidence is uncertain and you could reasonably justify using either method?

On 9/8/2021 at 8:02 PM, allanyed said:

 Many modern models of British ships for example show a single and double block when this was not the case for guns lighter than 32 pounders.  

Out of curiosity do you have a source for this? I was looking at the alert book by goodwin and he seems to suggest that the 6 pounders on it used the single + double block configuration. Is this because his source is just contemporary models?

It is really starting to come together. Great job.

I think that looks really good. Just try applying varnish over your test piece and see what happens when you rub it a bunch.

On 9/19/2021 at 9:27 PM, dmalcolm72 said:

I can keep the sandpaper square to the surface and then use the flat face of my surface to keep my part true.

Good idea, it is always interesting to me to see the different solutions and approaches people have to the problems presented by models.

6 hours ago, MiraMarSteve said:

I'm thinking of building this kit myself for my first attempt but before I even start, I find myself in the "Valley of despair". Will this kit be too difficult as a first build?, what is a bearding line?, do I have enough time to learn all that I need to know, to do it right. I'm looking forward to follow in your footsteps.

 

The best way to learn is to make those mistakes. Starting your own build log is helpful as people here can give you advice and encouragement as you go along.

There are a lot of good lady nelson build logs on this site. Read as many of them as you can to learn from other people's mistakes. The lingo is a bit confusing at first, but as you read more logs you will start to understand what people mean by things like bearding line and false meek etc.

In any case you can always ask questions on other people's build logs (as long as the question is relevant to their work) your own log or some of the specific topic areas of the site.

Just a word of warning from one first time builder to another. Make sure you really take your time with the faring and check it with strips many times particularly around the bow. My failure to do this caused me a lot of grief.

3 hours ago, DelF said:

The lines are fairly arbitrary - I just wanted enough points along each plank to be able to determine its shape.

Now that I think about it it seems obvious. I guess it just never occurred to me that the lines I choose don't really matter. I was just using the bulkeads because in all the tutorials that is what people did.

I guess really if you want to get your measurements more accurate you use more lines and the only trade-off is the extra time measuring.

On 9/9/2021 at 10:58 AM, DelF said:

In the final shot I've started marking out the hull for second planking:

How do you decide where to put the lines? is this just arbitrary or do you space them a specific distance and use a particular technique to keep the straight?

I ask because I noted that you have more lines than there were bulkheads on the model and some of them are clearly not in the same place as the bulkheads.

Minor update:

I have finished planking the first band on one side of the ship. So that is one down, 5 more to go.

The planking pattern pattern was a bit difficult to figure out at first, but once I got it going it flows easily. On to the next side.

It looks really good. Fantastic job!

Scrub with a toothbrush with soap and water before priming. Use a really fine grit sandpaper to smoothe the surface (600 or higher). You could use a small file to carefully remove the supports.

Hope this helps.

A few things to consider:

1) Pigment size is important for airbrushes so I would suggest you use a hobby paint rather than artist paints.

2) You may have some issues with inconsistent air flow with that mini air compressor. I would personally recommend a compressor with a tank. You can find them for about $100 on Amazon.

3) The consistency of the paint is really important. Too thick and you will clog things up, too much water and it won't stick properly and may run. It might be worth getting some airbrush medium and flow aid as this can help. Generally people say a milk like consistency, but really you need to experiment a bit to find out what works.

4) To avoid dry tip (where paint dries on the tip of the needle and blocks the flow) make sure that when spraying you follow this process: press down for air, pull back to spray, slide forward to stop spraying, release air (down, back, forward, up).

5) Air pressure is also really important, generally between 10-20 psi is recommended, but I have at times used as high as 30. The higher the pressure the wider the cone and the more the paint atomizes in the air. This can risk it drying out before it hits the target and producing a bumpy surface.

All my experience with decals comes from plastic, but I suspect the principles will translate.

The surface doesn't need to be perfectly even but it does need to be very smooth for a decal to stick. If you don't it will either peel off or have air bubbles which make it look like a piece of plastic (the goal is to make it look painted on). I would recommend the following steps if you want to attach the decal:

1. Sand the surface down so it is as even as possible
2. Sand it smooth with a fine grit sandpaper
3. Trim your decal as close as you can get it. If you are using white decal paper this is extra important as you need to go right up to the lines. If you are using clear decal paper then you can paint in the white after you have applied the decal (unless you are planning on painting that whole area white).
4. If you are planning on painting the are, now is the time to paint it whatever colour you want.
5. Apply a layer of gloss varnish over the area you are planning on adding the decal two. Make sure that you do several thin layers. Allow this to fully dry.
6. Fold some paper towel on a small plate and saturate it with water, place your decal face up on this.
7. Apply some micro set (or equivalent) to the area you are going to apply the decal.
8. Use a paintbrush to slide the decal into place (this is a very delicate process, especially with big decals such as this), this will be easier the flatter the surface you have for it.
9. Gently manipulate it and pat it down with the paintbrush trying to smooth out any bubbles, then leave it to fully dry.
10. Take some micro sol or equivalent and with a paintbrush gently paint it on from the center outwards, using it to conform the decal to any imperfections on the surface and to smooth out any ridges or air bubbles. You can also use a pin to pop any air bubbles that don't want to move and then smooth them down with micro sol.
11. Once the decal is fully dry, apply matt varnish from a can or airbrush over the entire area until the edges disappear.

Hope this helps, any questions feel free to reach out.

Log #10: Concerning Drop Planks

With the wales done I proceeded to line off the hull for a second time. With the benefit of having done this once and realizing why it was not what I wanted, I was able to arrange much more pleasing lines.

However, when I went to make my tick strips and mark the tapering at the bow I realized I had an issue. To fit the required number of strakes in the first band, I needed to taper them at the bow to around 2mm (on the diagonal so just under 2mm perpendicular to the plank). This is right at the edge of what is acceptable to me for tapering (half the width at midships).

So I had three potential ways to solve this problem:

1. Just accept the narrow tapering
2. Adjust the tape lines to make them more “straight” running into the bow to create more room
3. Add a drop plank right under the wales

One was never really an option, I knew I would always be annoyed by how narrow they were. Two was not ideal because I really liked the lining off I had done and “straightening” the lines would risk the introduction of a “wiggle” in the planks near the bow (you can see this wiggle in my first planking). Three was by far the most difficult option, but in the end I figured that this whole thing is a learning process and I might as well gie it a shot. If they don’t turn out in a way I like, I can always decide to shift back to option one or two. All I will have lost is time. Also historically I believe that it was common practice for english shipwrights to put one drop plank right under the wales.

So what followed was an evening of reading, measuring, cutting, then reading and measuring again to try and shape the drop planks correctly. For the benefit of any other new builders who might want to attempt a drop plank I am going to detail my thought process below. I am not sure this is the best way to approach it so feel free to chime in if you have thoughts on the process.

I modeled the shape of the drop planks off of @chuck’s cheerful build log. However, that only gave me the rough length and shape, he never (that I could find) went into detail as to how he designs their measurements, so that part I was forced to improvise.

Step 1 - Calculations
I decided to use my lining off of the first band as the basis for my calculations. I knew I needed to fit seven planks in the band and that the drop plank needed to end at the 2nd bulkhead. This meant that at both the 1st and 2nd bulkheads, the width of the drop plank needed to be the equivalent of two strakes.

At the bow instead of dividing the space into 7, I now divided it into 6 to reflect the new taper of having “removed” one of the strakes. This now gave me my drop plank widths at both ends and the midpoint of the drop plank.

To calculate the width at the point where the drop plank splits into two planks I simply took the midpoint between the bulkhead 1 and 2 widths.

Step 2 - Determining the Bend
I pressed an old receipt against the bottom of the wales and ran my pencil along it to determine the shape of the curve. Using one of the ¼ inch strips I used for the wales I could get almost all the way there by marking out the curve. Ideally I would have used a piece of pearwood sheet, but I didn’t have one of those.

Step 3 - Cutting Out the Drop Planks
Using a sharp exacto knife I carefully cut outside the lines I had drawn. Then I used files and sandpaper to adjust until I was happy with the shape. When I had one plank done, I used it as a template to draw and cut out the other.

I then sanded and filled both until they matched and I was happy with the shape. In my case my ¼ inch stock was also slightly thicker (1.2mm) than the 1mm pearwood that came with the kit. So I also had to sand/scrape this down a bit to get the thickness closer to the rest of the planking.

All that was left then was to follow the normal process of attaching them to the model making small adjustments with sandpaper, filing and bending them round a pot to curve them. You can see below the finished product.

I may not have as much time in the next few weeks to work on the model so I expect that progress on the 2nd planking will slow down now. I will post another update once I have finished the first section.
 

11 minutes ago, desalgu said:

Here's photo looking straight on from bow.  Ideally planking on both sides should match up, but I'm off a little.  Tells me I didn't taper planks same on both sides.

 

I used tick marks on hull, but found it difficult to transfer marks to planks, and then cut/sand planks to match the tick marks.  So after 2-3 planks I'm off track.  I may redo tick marks more frequently as I plank further downward, and of course, try to taper planks more accurately.

I have found you just need to constantly double check things are lining up. So every strake I lay I double check both the bow and stern are matching. If anything is off then I have time to adjust. I also found I had an easier time of it when I started doing the tick marks by sections. So once I lined off the hull I would only do the tick marks for the first section, plank that and then I could adjust again afterwards as needed.

In any case I think it looks good.

I had the same issue with my first planking of my alert (though to a slightly lesser degree). You can see the wiggle below.

The problem was caused by two main issues. First I didn't start tapering at the bow soon enough, I did one two many full sized planks (this appears to be part of your problem). This meant that the flow of the planks didn't sweep upward like it was meant to. Then I didn't line up my string on the lining off process correctly and so the planks were tapering two much at the second bulkhead and not enough at the bow (at times the taper at the second bulkhead was pretty much the same as the bow).

The only way I can think to really correct this is to take off the planking up to where the wales will go and then line off your hull to make sure the sweep of the planks looks right. If you are not willing to do that then you will probably just have to live with the wiggle.

Looks really good, I don't think before I joined model ship world that I was aware you could make a paper model look that nice.

Minor update, I did most of the other side tonight (still have to attach the wales). This side went much better. I feel I have a much better handle on the bending process and how much glue to use. Everything is going on more accurately and much more quickly.

@jpalmer1970 How do you hold them in place where you can't pin them since it is the second planking. One of the really nice things about CA is I just need to hold it in place for a sec and it grabs so I can slowly work my way down the plank.

15 minutes ago, Luigi Luigi said:

 

Thank you very much to all of you for these clear and quick explanations !

Honestly, I didn't imagine that such a site gathering so many passionnate modelists could exist... I am sooo happy, and thanks to all of you, so much less confused !!

 

When you start your ship, start a build log, that way you can get feedback as you go along.

55 minutes ago, Luigi Luigi said:

- How do you know which ticks have to be put on the strip and on the frame (step 1 on the pdf)?

You divide the hull into sections using tape or strung. Then you make a tick strip the width of the gap between the string on each bulkhead and place it on the planking fan such that it equally divides your strip into the appropriate amount of planks. It is just an easy way of getting getting equal widths for the planks you need to fit in that gap.

55 minutes ago, Luigi Luigi said:

How does Chuck know he needs 29 planks ont that specific case?

He decided on his plank width at scale and then divided the bulkhead size at midships by that width to get how many planks he would need.

55 minutes ago, Luigi Luigi said:

- Where do you have to place the strip according to the ticks? (step 2 on the pdf)

This is something you just need to eyeball. At midships you line it up with the appropriate tick mark, but then you adjust the lines to make them look like they should. As the article suggests look at the run of planks on pictures of models to get the idea.

55 minutes ago, Luigi Luigi said:

- Finally, how to use the planking fan? To what do the 7 marks on Chuck’s tape refer to? How to place the tape on the planking fan? (steps 3 and 4 on the pdf).

See my first answer. If you are still confused you can check out my build log, I detail some of the process there.

Maybe the best thing is to just re-articulate the steps for you.

1) Measure the bulkhead at midships to determine how much space you need to cover.

2) Determine the width of your planks. If you are using a kit this will be done for you already as you will use whatever you were provided with. For example on my alert build the limewood strips for the first planking were 4.9 mm wide.

3) Divide your midship bulkhead size by the width of your planks to determine the number of planks and divide it into equal sections (as many as you want to line off)

4) using tape or a string with a bit of glue on it determine the sections of your hull. Once you are happy mark on each bulkhead where the string crosses it. You can then mark this width for each bulkhead on a strip of paper.

5) use the planking fan to split each section on each bulkhead into the appropriate number of planks. Let's say for example you determined you need 20 planks at midships and you divide it into two sections using one string. Then each section on each bulkhead will need 10 planks. Move your strip of paper along the planking fan until the marks you made to denote the section widths line up with 10 planks. Then mark the planking fan lines in your strip and transfer them to the bulkhead. Repeat this for each bulkhead section on each bulkhead.

Log #9: Lining Up the Wales

I have started the second planking.

One thing I have found with the super glue is that it is very hard to make sure it doesn’t squirt out between the planks and stain the outside. The instructions call for me to glue the planks to the first layer as well as edge to edge and it is this latter requirement, while also working fast to attach the plank before the super glue dries that gives me the most trouble.

Thankfully most of my mistakes with this occured between the first and second planks and so will get covered up by the rail that runs between them.

What I can't cover up is I made the butt joints between the planks perpendicular to the planks instead of parallel to the bulkheads. On the bright side since I am doing this one side at a time, it will only be a problem on this one side above the wales. Hopefully it won't be too noticeable.

I am going to attach the wales as one piece and then scribe the joints. Since I won't be needing the 3mm planks for the wales I used them as the lower layer of the wales. This way I could eyeball to make sure everything looked good. In order to save on sanding later, I stopped them short of the bow so the wales can slope into the rabet along with the rest of the planks.

Then I carefully bent the ¼ inch plank I had for the wales. This process took a long time as it was very resistant to bending and and it needed to be bent in multiple directions and places. In the end I think it turned out ok.

Next I have to repeat this process on the other side.

@PhillH I also got a wider 1/4 inch piece of pearwood strip that I am going to use for the wales. So because I don't need the 2 3mm ones I am going to use them on the first planking so I can visually see where the wales should be before I commit to placing the second layer of them.

9 hours ago, PhillH said:

The interesting thing is there are no instructions to actually fit the wales they just appear in the drawing regarding the gun port openings.

 

Phill

 

So my plan is just to go three planks down (like in the Goodwin book) and then match the wales to the curve that generates. We will see how it looks once I get three planks down...

On another note I just noticed the wide disparity in colour between the various pear planks. I am now sorting them by color so the ones that look off are limited to below the water line.

@BobG thanks, glad to have you along for the ride.

@jpalmer1970 Good to know, I guess I will proceed in that manner too.