Requesting feedback for future MSW Group Projects

[Chuck]

Great thank you...remember it will be a few months before its finalized.  I am curious though rcmdrvr, why did you select that you are not interested in any of the projects in the poll above.   

[Tigersteve]

Chuck- You could probably just offer a full kit with parts, rope, blocks, etc. I wonder if a starter package is even necessary? This kit will fly off the shelves. Maybe just a choice of Cedar or Cherry wood if possible. Price difference as appropriate.

 

I can’t commit at this point to the group project as I’m about to come off a marathon of building your MS boat kits and need a break from boats. ;-) I will be interested in your kit a bit down the line for sure. 

Steve

[Chuck]

There will be a full kit available yes....but maybe some folks dont want the whole thing.  Anyway,  we shall see when we get that far.   I was only thinking of offering a partial starter with frame and keel parts for anyone wishing to scratch the rest of it for the group project and save a little money.  I probably wouldnt even list it on my site and only offer the starter here on MSW for the group.

[cog]

If group builds tend to have a high threshold, and you want to get newcomers, or inexperienced builders to join in, why all these difficultish builds? I have read the suggestions, but as a newby I would run in the oposite direction. Personally I would go for the type of boats Russ builds, maybe the same type of boat, but from different countries, like US, France, Spain, Italy, Norway, maybe a fraction smaller like the fishin boats from Malta ... people tend to identify themselveswith what they build, often through their country ...

[Chuck]

Actually the Longboat is not a difficult build at all.  At least not with the new design.  But the goal here is create groups for all ranges of expertise.  I would say that this group taking shape would be in the intermediate range.  It will have pre spiled and laser cut planks for example.  No carvings etc.  A smallish subject done plank and bulkhead style would be a perfect choice for a beginner or someone on their second or maybe third model.....but we dont have any designed yet.   

 

They are in the works as soon as we can identify a subject that fits the bill.  Then we will put one together.  The ones I listed were only done because those projects are completed already or nearly completed and a group can be started sooner.  Any yet- to- be named beginner-centric subject has yet to be developed.

 

That of course wouldnt rule out six to 10 members who consider themselves beginners from organizing themselves and selecting an already available kit choice on the market and asking a suitable mentor to build it alongside them and guide them through the process.  But once again.....our membership must speak up and suggest such a scenario so we can help them get it together.  

 

Carl, If you have such a project in mind...please let us know.  Organize and gather some support for it.  That can and should be done in this forum and you are free to create a topic to rally support.  That is actually what this topic is trying to find out..because my attempts to ask our members to step up and start a topic to organize their own groups never happened..too shy perhaps..but we need folks to speak up and based on those that have already done so, we have the choices chosen thus far.  Read the other topic in this forum which spells out how any member can try and organize a group build of their own!!!

[kurtvd19]

Carl:

There is a small fishing boat - the NRG's Generic Sharpie that fits the bill for a simple small craft.  200+ page monograph to guide the builder.  The author did the monograph for the builder with minimal tools noted.  All materials are standard sizes - no need for custom milling.

 

Only one build going right now but you can see the info on either link below - the review of the initial announcement.

 

Kurt

 

 

 

[Chuck]

To give Carl and everyone a better idea of what you guys are free to propose in the way of a group project see this Mock sample proposal.  Any of you folks can create a stand alone topic such as this one to lay out and propose any project.   If you get the six or more participants then we will gladly set up the group for you.  If you need any help along the way just ask.

 

So as Kurt proposed....a Sharpie build....he should start a topic with similar information to rally support.   Name a person who will be leading the group....hopefully the authors and designers.   But these groups dont run themselves....so you or another person who will lead this group should try and organize it and create a detailed proposal for it as a stand alone topic.

 

As Carl proposed...get together with Russ and flesh out some ideas on a Biloxi schooner and create a proposal topic to rally six members.  Its really that easy and nobody has to be shy here.    Just start a "PROPOSAL" topic but please lay out the details of the project so that everyone knows what it entails and who will be leading the group. 

 

If you are proposing a group and cant find a mentor/leader then contact us and we will try and find one for you.

 

Important:You cant have a group project without a leader who will run it and hopefully mentor the builders.  One who has some expertise on the subject and will dedicate some time and energy to keep it organized.  Post tutorials for certain aspects or post info that will be useful to the group.  Without a leader for a group.....we dont have a group.  Its a requirement.  For example...see the intro to simple carving group I started and assumed the role of group moderator or leader for.

 

If on the other hand you have an idea for a group and wish to start one for let say.....an ice boat....but no commercially available plans or kits exist.  Then still create a proposal.  And if there is enough support for it the NRG may use some funding to help create one.

 

This particular topic and poll was created to gather information on what people are willing to accept....prefering to build...and possibly be expected to pay....for a group as a general top-level discussion.  Hopefully it will give the Admin and NRG some ideas should no members ever create a proposal.  I urge all of you to do so!!!  You never know, maybe there are dozens who also had the same though but never said anything.

 

Basic rules for creating a proposal are written here....

[JeffT]

I'd like to do this also.

 

[Old Collingwood]

1 hour ago, helmsman said:

I'd like to do this also.

 

Hi Jeff  long time no see  hope you are well.

 

OC.

[Jim Rogers]

I’m in.

 

[JeffT]

16 hours ago, Old Collingwood said:

Hi Jeff  long time no see  hope you are well.

 

OC.

Hi OC! All is good. I'm usually around but just silently lurking in the shadows.

[Cathead]

Sail-making is a very interesting group project idea. I would be interested in that specifically, but would not be interested in making another longboat, especially a large one (though I'm sure it's a great model). Would it be possible to join in just for the sail-making part? I'd also be interested in a further discussion of the rigging for that craft, as I just don't think the provided design could work in real life even though I know Chuck based it on a contemporary model (see this thread in which I worked out a new rigging plan for the longboat).

 

 

[Chuck]

We shall see when the time comes.  I may stick with the same rigging plan though as it is what they used back then.  But I am talking to some folks and will see how horrible it would be to deviate from the contemporary models since this is actually a model of a model.  But since they dont have sails maybe I have some wiggle room.  There are a few things that are off on the contemporary models and one is the way the rudder is attached on both models.   There are no notches in the rudder or the stern post to accept the hinges.  Now do I correct that or shall I be faitful to the contemporary models....or just see how folks bash it and deviate based on their own desires.

 

Lots of questions and deliberations as I design a new kit.

[alde]

Wouldn't it be better to correct errors on the contemporary models instead of carrying them on into the future? 

[Chuck]

It depends....sometimes they are not errors.  Like the rigging plan.  In other instances they are not errors either....for example the rudder.  Its just a modeling convention they used.  You see this a lot in contemporary models.  They used certain model conventions and I think they are just fine in most instances.  The contemporary builder didnt do it wrong because he didnt know how to do it.  He probably could have literally walked down the street and taken a look at the original. 

 

It makes for a model that is less sterile in my opinion, and to me has a different look.....artistic value.  But others who want to "kitchen sink" a model with every last historically accurate detail even though you wouldnt commonly see them on contemporary models...it tends to make some projects very sterile and busy....clinical.

 

I wrestle with this all the time.  I ask myself all the time, if I change this or that to make it appeal to the purist of clinical naval architects among us...will the model I am building loose what I love so much about the contemporary model I use as inspiration.   I hope that makes sense. My time in art school has trained me to look at things differently than say an engineer would.  I know many many engineers who model and they love to insist on adding every doodad and detail just like it should be....That is awesome for them.  But its not my cup of tea.  We have hearty debates over it all the time. 

 

But who knows,  maybe I will continue to match those beautiful models because they are works of art in my opinion...but talk about and create an alternative drawing or notation for folks that are more like my engineer friends....its just a bit clinical for me.

[mtaylor]

 Chuck,

What Al said. I'd go the way the actual boat was done on the rudder.   Some conventions can be over ridden but since the result of this is very visual, go with your instinct. 

 

If we followed the contemporary model makers, alot of our ships would be solid hull or hollowed out wood.  

[Chuck]

To better explain my dilemma...

 

Here is a look at the cont model rudder.  Its original.

Here is the other cont model rigged.  This is NOT the original rudder and was made as a restoration following the other model.

This is the way it should be in actuality.  Like my barge kit.

Note the indent in the stern post which draws the rudder closer to the stern post.  Its a very simple fix....but really does have a different look than the contemporary models.  Should I just present the problem and allow the builder to choose which arrangement they want.  By the way...that is the original rigging on that contemporary model.  And the sheet and horse arrangement is 100% correct.   So to change that would be to change it to something very wrong for this boat.  A very different issue than the rudder hinge which is modeled that way as modelling convention that the contemporary builder used.

 

The third possibility and probably the best one as it is less of a departure maybe.  This is an original draft from around the same time that shows a way that I can keep the hull and stern post the same as the contemporary models but then change the shape of the rudder to have the indents instead.  These are for the pintles and gudgeons and will also draw the rudder closer to the stern post.  This would be my compromise if I decided to make the change and deviate from the contemporary models.  

 

I hope I fleshed out an example of one dilemma that I face among dozens on all my projects like this.  Damned if you do...damned if you dont.  So in the end as long as I explain the situation, you guys would know where I am coming from and can use any of the above to suit your fancy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[alde]

I am not an engineer but do come from an engineering field. I was a draftsman and mechanical engineering technician for the US Navy for many years. I do tend to get caught up on details but my modeling skills have not reached the point where I can put most of it into a model. I confess to sometimes just buying ship drawings because I enjoy looking at them with no intention of building the ship. My point is that I don't mean to nit pick the finer details. However you do it is fine with me. I just appreciate the fact that you are doing it.

Edited June 22, 2018 by alde

[Cathead]

Chuck, on the rigging, I wasn't talking about the horse and tiller (although that debate came up in my thread and it's interesting) so much as the actual standing rigging and sheets. As the cont. model is rigged, it's literally impossible to raise and lower some of the sails, as I diagrammed in the thread I started on the subject. If you look at that rigging plan as an actual sailor would, it simply can't work. It's simpler than a functional rigging plan and looks fine if you don't think about it, but there's no way the sails as-rigged in the model could be used to actually work the boat.

 

I agree with you that any given builder can care more or less about such details, but given the care taken in designing many other obscure parts of such kits, it makes sense to me to at least consider the functionality of a design. For example, if a cont. model showed a cannon placed directly behind a set of shrouds, there's no way we'd want to include that in a new model whether or not it matched the original model because it simply couldn't work.

 

I agree with Mark and Al overall, it seems to me that function is more important than fidelity, though you make a fine and eloquent point about contemporary models as art rather than strictly accurate models. I guess I'd rather see a model that taught the builder more about how things actually work in the original rather than how an unknown modeller/artist represented them once.

 

And a possibly necessary disclaimer, none of this is personal criticism. You do something few of us are capable of, and I highly respect that. But when you ask for input on model development, that's what you get!

Edited June 22, 2018 by Cathead

[Chuck]

Not a problem...I am very busy doing research on the rig as we speak..  I have made contact with the builders and crew of an 18th century longboat replica out of Halifax.  They are preparing a long journey in 2020 and I am discussing some details about their rig and how they developed it.   I am sure they have it rigged fairly consistent with early practice although this replica is a bit later from 1770's.

 

Contemporary drawing of rigged longboat....useful for number of reef points and panels circa 1760-70.

 

[svein erik]

A question about this build?

 

Is this only for a group or is this build for all how wants to play for this kit?

Am alone so no grop is availebul 

 

Svein.erilk

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Chuck]

You can still start a build log and join the online group.   It will be available to everyone however when I start cutting the first kits, they will be reserved for those in the group.  I wont even list them on my site until everyone in the group project has received their kit or starter package.

[DocBlake]

I'm in!  I was involved in a 1:24 scale long boat project a few years back.  It was a group build.  The project got scrapped when the CAD guy drawing the plans died unexpectedly.  Hopefully we'll have none of that with this build!

[Chuck]

Oh Jeez!!!  Thats bad.   Hopefully I wont get hit by a truck any time soon.

[Ryland Craze]

Count me in.  This means I need to get started on my Queen Anne Style Barge and have it completed very soon.  I also plan to present the group build concept to my Club members as I feel some would benefit greatly in a group build environment.

 

[svein erik]

17 hours ago, Chuck said:

You can still start a build log and join the online group.   It will be available to everyone however when I start cutting the first kits, they will be reserved for those in the group.  I wont even list them on my site until everyone in the group project has received their kit or starter package.

I wil wait for the kit but i do like to have them both 

So og can stand side by side 😊

 

[Jasseji]

ok, so if we dont have a group nearby, we have to wait for the kits to be available on the website ?

[Landrotten Highlander]

51 minutes ago, Jasseji said:

ok, so if we dont have a group nearby, we have to wait for the kits to be available on the website ?

I don't think this is the case.  There will be a group build here on this site - each member of the group will have to post on his own building block using the materials chosen/provided.

Only when the members of this (online) group have received their material will it be made available as a kit on Chuck's site.

 

Do correct me when I am wrong.

Slainte gu mhath

L.H.

Edited June 24, 2018 by Landrotten Highlander

[aviaamator]

....!

[Chuck]

Its not a physical group....to clarify....if you dont join this online group (similar to TRiton Group)  then you must wait to buy them.  But if you join the online group....LIke TRiton, which is just a group of build logs of the longboat all in the same area.  The group we are referring to is just the online group put together here on MSW.  Not a physical group in your geographical location.