Chuck

Some criteria for starting a new group project

31 posts in this topic

As many of you are aware....we have had many group project forums in the past with a couple going on right now.   I just closed the Longboat group which had been going for several years.   It had soon run its course.  All closed groups will have their logs moved to the appropriate forum.  None will be lost.  Keep in mind all groups are not permanent.   They will wind down and close as  they lose steam and participation.   This will done to preserve valuable forum real estate and also keep the site fresh and exciting with new possibilities for the membership.  As the administrator I will pose the question in each group forum when it looks like interest and participation crawled to a stop.  It will be up to the membership if they want to keep it open...but that means its up to the membership to keep it active.


 


If closed....All pinned topics and non logs will be moved .  Nothing will be lost.


 


:)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :) 


 


To start a new project forum, it must meet this criteria.


 


- must have 6 - 8 current members actively building the project and willing to start a log in a separate group area.    Group will be open to any member wanting to participate.  No exclusions.


 


- subject can be suggested by any member as long as they meet the criteria.  Its time to rally your fellow members should you wish to start one.  If you are among many building one model now and there are more than 6 - 8 logs already started,  why not take the initiative to contact them to see if all of you want to start a group.  Just an idea.


 


- the forums must contain only Build logs following the same guidelines for naming them as the other build log forums.  


 


-all non-build log specific info related to the project that will help the group of builders, will be posted as a pinned topic above the build logs by a moderator.


 


 If you would like to suggest a topic for such a group build area...you may list it in this forum.....Try to rally your fellow members to start and participate in a new group.....or if there are already more than 6-8 "scratch" or "kit" forum build logs started and you can convince those builders to move their topics here.....we can do that as well.  But if that happens.....we will move all similar build logs here for convenience and consistency....even if you are NOT among the 6-8 who want to start such a separate group project forum.    But PLEASE...be as detailed as you can when suggesting a new group be started.


 


List the name and type of ship or item.....scratch or kit......POF or POB....solid hull....what will cost....time frame....where to get plans....kit...or supplies.   What would the goal and aim be if any for the project you are trying to start.


 


JUST ONE MORE SUGGESTION.....The project DOES NOT need to be for a complete ship or boat.  For example.  If members wanted to start a group about making a ship's stove or a capstan....that is fine too.  As long as there are 6-8 members who are actively doing so.  Trying new techniques and sharing them as well as working on the same exact thing.....if you want to start a group about using a lathe to turn cannon and it will active participants...that is great and worthwhile.


 


A group project such as this....its about learning together and exchanging ideas as a group on any one subject.   This structure is offered to make it easier and more convenient.  So think outside the box.  But we need 6-8 members to start one.   And the key word is ACTIVE PROJECT.


 


 


 


Chuck


(MSW admin)


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not at a point in my life where I can commit to a group project, but I would be keenly interested in a C A Thayer build somewhere down the road.

GuntherMT and mtaylor like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like all of thes projects but especialy Halifax which is relatively small yet has some ornamentation. My only concern would be how to get the plans for the vessel.

Smaller sized vessels can also be built at a larger scale, which is nice.

mtaylor likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Give it time, Dave.   Chuck also has a topic posted elsewhere about kits that maybe "should" be made.

 

I'm needing some filter time but having leapt into scratchbuilding, I'm not sure what would be a good project.  The Triton Cross-Section seems to have worked well...   It's an interesting build, not too difficult, and by most standards, pretty quick depending on the builder and how complex they want to go. And it produces a nice model.  The full-build.. not very successful as it's a huge time eater and complex.  

 

At this point, I'm not even considering the next model.. well.. I'm considering but not deciding, put it that way.

 

Somewhere is a happy medium but darned if I know where it would be...  perhaps, fittings... like Chuck suggested.  Or maybe a mast mounted to a fake deck with deadeyes, full sails,and all the rigging.   

Canute, Ryland Craze and Jack12477 like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the intent of this or any group project is to introduce model builders to scratch building, the Hahn system has much to recommend. The idea of a flat jig/datum to lock frames in place goes a long way towards ensuring an accurate hull. For builders with limited workshop capacity, strip milled to the correct dimensions can be purchased, cut with a minirature miter box and laminated and cut to shape using simple hand tools. Many years ago, I built a model of the New York pilot boat Express using the Hahn system and over 30 years later am still quite proud of it. While building a model "upright" using individual timbers may better represent actual shipbuilding practice, I would argue that a builder wishing to include this level of detail, and capable of executing it does not need to and might not be interested in a group build.

 

Roger Pellett

mtaylor and Canute like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Chuck has opened the door to the idea of group build logs for things like Capstans and Galley Stoves. This raises a general question about group build logs that are not of entire ships but of COMPONENTS of ships: Lets say you have a group build log for capstans. People will be building capstans for their ships and their ships will have individual build logs for them that will already include the capstan portion of the build, then they will ALSO be using the capstan portion of their build logs in the Capstan Group Build Log. So there will be duplication of effort with wholesale cutting and pasting of capstan building  photos and text from the build logs they originated from into the Group Build Logs. This wouldn't bother me since it will allow a lot of capstan building information to be located all in one place. but would it be placing a burden on the websites servers and other resources?

mtaylor, Canute and tlevine like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would like to suggest a group build log for making Sails for Models. I think it would be great to have a lot of sail making projects available for perusal all under one heading. But maybe this topic is not specific enough for a group build log? Or maybe it would be felt that there is already a place for sailmaking discussion under the Masting Rigging and Sails heading? It could be regarded as too wide a net and the group would be unable to focus on one method of making sails? On the other hand there are a lot of people that are daunted by the prospect of making realistic sails for their models and there is a LOT of information that could be discussed and disseminated. The subject of sails is controversial though and there would be a lot of different methods being discussed and the group build log would become chaotic. Whereas by contrast the group build log for Capstans  would likely fall into maybe three schools of thought and could stay on track better? All these are guesses on my part, but I do think the idea of a sail building discussion group has merit.

mtaylor, Canute, Azzoun and 3 others like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well right now I am just trying to muster up enough interest in any subject.  Doesnt seem to be going well.  Plus Dave and others are missing the point with the fitting group projects.  It doesnt matter that there are instances where a capstan is made in a build log.  There is no duplication.......

 

The idea is that a group of folks may want to try and build a typical capstan correctly and choose the same subject plan/or primary source. Then build it TOGETHER while sharing ideas for how best to accomplish the task.  For example...see the wonderful model below.

 

 

With your line of thinking ....which I think is flawed,  one can say that there are currently so many Hahn scratch build logs underway that there is no good reason to start a group for one.  It would be a duplication of effort and redundant.  There has been so much written about his method....and tried before,  that it would not be worthy of a group.    But ......because you folks missed the whole point about ..."group"  and "together"   "building the same subject"  "from the same plans together"   .....I think a Hahn group would be a good idea and so would any project as a group who wanted to try and build any subject as a study and exercise in technique or for any other reason.  This includes any current kit on the market.   It doesnt have to be a special project designed new...or by a commercial entity specifically for the purpose of using it in a group.....

 

It can be a group build entirely from scratch.....buy a copy of any plan available....OR you can collectively choose to start a group building teh M.Shipways kit for the Armed Virginia Sloop....It doesnt matter how over done it is...as long as members of the group will get something out of it....learn together and progress there hobby adventure.  A group of brand new model builders getting together to build a simple kit as a group will absolutely be of benefit to them in the long run.  It is easier to "learn" as group than on your own....sometimes....and for specific people who prefer additional input and support.

 

 

A group project for making sails is an EXCELLENT idea....a plan of any sail can found easily enough....that same plan can be used by many folks to make a sail....imagine,

 

some trying different materials.....others trying different techniques.  All to produce the same sail.  It would be so valuable to have that data in one place for everyone after the group has completed.  Excellent suggestion.   But someone has to take the lead and get it organized.....find that plan and find 6-8 people ready to get started.  That would be an invaluable resource to have for everyone.   AND it wont be a project that takes years to complete....and you can participate while still working on any current projects.  Frank gets it.....that is whole point of a group learning experience.large.jpg

dvm27, Jack12477, mtaylor and 5 others like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As a newcomer, the biggest issue for group builds for myself is timing.  The group build of the long-boat got me interested and I purchased the kit, but there are other things in the queue ahead of it, so I haven't started it yet.

 

The Cheerful might have been a good group-build, given how many started it (myself included!), and in theory could still be a group build if all the current logs were moved, but I'm not sure if there is any real benefit to doing that?

 

I'd eventually like to step into full scratch-building, probably with something like the Triton cross-section, so hopefully that will still be available when I dip my toes into that pool, but my current stack of waiting to be built kits are probably not group build material since they've been around for a long time and there are a fair number of old build logs in the forums for them.

 

Sorry I don't have any better suggestions - although I personally don't see why the group build sub-forums need to be shut down when the slow down, as it's really not that big of a deal to scroll past them if you aren't interested or nothing is currently going on.  Lots of sub-forums really don't bother me, and seem like a really good 'reference' for anyone that decides to do those builds in the future, rather than having to try to find them all via search.

 

FYI - something that I noticed when you moved all the long-boat builds - the forum loses track of what has been read and not, so the currently running builds were all marked 'unread' to me, so when they were updated I was unable to just start where they had last been when in the group build sub-forum.  Probably no way to prevent that when you move the logs.

mtaylor, Canute and mischief like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello Everyone,

I like the concept that Chuck is trying to get started in regards to group projects, be they small or large. One idea that I've been mulling over in my mind would be a group projected dedicated to carvings of Viking longboat prows. I've come across many pictures on the internet and it has stirred my imagination into incorporating it as a side project. Now the prow can be as large as one would want to tackle it. One must ensure that they do show updates and what carving techniques they are using. While at a larger scale, it will give people the opportunity to start practicing their carving techniques in the event they may want to try their hands at a carved ship's figurehead.

Attached are a few photos of what I am talking about in the event it stirs curiosity in fellow ship builders.

 

 

post-8913-0-92885900-1465321126_thumb.jpg

post-8913-0-86633300-1465321139_thumb.jpg

post-8913-0-80249400-1465321152_thumb.jpg

post-8913-0-95654500-1465321162_thumb.jpg

post-8913-0-19850000-1465321182.jpg

post-8913-0-49313500-1465321192_thumb.jpg

post-8913-0-93263000-1465321214.jpg

CaptainSteve, rjt, Stubby and 9 others like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A group on an intro to carving would be great......that subject might be a little advanced and intimidating...but maybe say this.   As it is applicable to the carved work in bas relief that is common on many period ship transoms and trail boards.   

 

Graphic1.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

very nice idea Raymond

i would do that

Thanks Daves,

I figured it would be a great small/side project that would give the modeler new skills in this hobby. Jack's Oseberg Viking Ship is a great looking model and I think this type of project would be a great supplemental model/piece to add along side of her.

 
Canute, WBlakeny, mtaylor and 1 other like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Group projects for entire ships or boats are problematic for all the reasons presented here.  Having said that, I built the longboat because it was a group build and put my other projects on hold during the building process.  I would not have done that if the anticipated build time was months or years, rather than weeks.  I like the idea of a group build of a specific part of a ship, whether this is a sail, capstan, wheel or stove.  I definitely would participate in a group for carving.

ziled68, mtaylor, Jack12477 and 5 others like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would love to know how to carve. A group build for carving something simple would be nice. I might participate if there were enough people to help and teach me. I also like the idea of a group build of part of a ship. That way, it wouldn't take much time away from my ship. Maybe a group build on a certain part of rigging, like a mast from the deck on up?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am working on creating a simple group/class for carving a very simple design.  Stay tuned.  I will be presenting it to my local club first to see how it goes and then I will present here.

 

More details will follow shortly.  This is a short term project I think many will enjoy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Carving is great idea and so is sailmaking. But there is one subject that I would absolutely sign up for on a group build, and that is making figures for ship models. I've tried making figures before, I have a couple books that talk about it, but I haven't been very successful at it. 

 

Would love to be able to make figures in 1/8" scale, 1/4" scale, and even 1" scale.

 

Clare

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi.

The carving idea would be splendid idea.

It's one of my failings in model ship building.

Something basic to carve and advice on tools and timber choices.

Differently up for this idea.

 

Regards Antony.

reklein, Canute, riverboat and 3 others like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looks like the topic has cooled off a bit so let throw some coal on the fire. With the summer coming to a close now is a good time to consider it. A carving "build' holds some interest for me as it would stretch my skill. One for just a deck section with some masts and rigging would do well also.

 

I agree with TLAVINE mentioned earlier that large projects are problematic for previous reasons mentioned and a smaller 'build' might be a better fit.  A small build project sounds like a shorter term obligation than a long term one. It is certainly a better fit into my current life.

 

So with fall and winter ( northern hemisphere ) model building season beginning any other thoughts or interest out there? 

donrobinson, Elijah, G.L. and 3 others like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Chuck, if you can please follow up about the carving thing. I for one would like to join and learn.

I think there are enough replies above to get something started, but it would really be good to have one or more person(s) who can 'teach' and/or recommend some literature and tools. I am sure there are individuals here and now who can.

mtaylor, Elijah and Canute like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your ears must have been burning.  I am hoping to make a whole bunch of carving blanks.....package them up.....and send them to Kurt.  Hopefully he can add them to the website so you guys can buy them.  I didnt write anything like a "how to carve" but after having the workshop I dont think we will need that.  I will just start an area where folks can share their experiences while trying to carve the blanks.  I will post a few words about what we did in the workshop and how some of the guys chose to approach it.  Then we can just talk about our own attempts once you guys get them.

 

Here is what they will look like.  They are very simple...Not very large....typical ship model-like decorations....they basically are the blanks for my barge prototype.  They will be laser cut from 1/32" thick boxwood.

 

As far as tools,  I used primarily a #11 blade although I also used a flexcut mini chisel forsome aspects.   The "v" shaped kind.  I am sure everyone will have there own preferences.  

 

But its a few weeks away....at least.

 

bargecarving.jpg

 

carvingsample.jpg

 

guildedcipher.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Through the NRG....I am mailing Kurt 20 sets tomorrow morning.   He will add the line item to the NRG store.    But as they run low on stock I will cut more and send them.

 

Chuck

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm in for the learning and the wisdom.  There's many here who are masters but finding the knowledge in one area is tough.  Then there's the pucker factor... FEAR.   One needs to get one's feet wet sometime... so.. diving in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In my case, doing this in my 'office' (which is inside, instead of the 'work shop', my garage) gives me a good excuse to the admiral who continues to ask 'when are you going to finish your cross section?'

Now that fall is here and winter around the corner, my office is a great place to cut some small chips and not too much dust.

I just placed the order for the boxwood pieces and will start with one of the crowns.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would like to suggest a group build log for making Sails for Models. I think it would be great to have a lot of sail making projects available for perusal all under one heading. 

I would like to second this suggestion. Making sails can be very challenging and interesting. 

It requires some new skills (like carving wood was new to me) and perhaps the use of a sewing machine (my wife's and no harm done).

But it also involves selecting material and all the details of how to finish the edges, etc.

post-246-0-79080300-1480301064.jpg

So how do we get started?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I too am interested in this one, I need to make sails for two sailboats and some hands on experience would be good, it is an area that I have been avoiding for a while now.

 

Michael

mtaylor, Modeler12 and Canute like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I had been working on a "how to / sewing techniques" for sewing sails.  If I was to complete it, it would be ~35 pages long, with a lot of detailed photos.  Of note, the article is not specific to one type of sails, rather, it's various sewing techniques that can be applied to your sails as needed.  Here's part of the intro that covers the topics.  Please note, these are not in order:  

 

Individual topic posts will include:   

  • Machine Setup - The physical set up of your sewing machine matters.  It's all about ergonomics!     (Ergonomics - Setting up your Byrnes saw!)
  • Selecting Fabric - Sewing your sails from muslin fabric, is equivalent to building your model of the Constitution or Victory with balsa wood.  Your model / sails deserve to be built with the best possible materials.     
  • Sewing Machine Settings - Tension, stitch length / width - (Setting up your Byrnes saw!)
  • Sewing Machine Feet - Selecting the right machine foot, is akin to selecting the right saw blade and guides for your Byrnes saw. 
  • Machine / Hand Needles - Understanding the shank, groove, scarf, eye, point, size and matching to the fabric and thread.
  • Preparing Sail Fabric - So simple, so important.  Takes about an hour and worth the time!
  • Sail Pattern Layout - How the sail pattern is laid out on the fabric will have a major influence on how the finished sail hangs / behaves.    
  • Thread - When I sewed all of my clothes, each project included 4 - 8 spools of thread.  At arms length, these spools of thread all look the same, but each spool was different with a specific purpose / use.           
  • About Hand Sewing - While most of your sails can be sewn on a machine, there are some parts that will look better if hand sewn.  The advantage of hand sewing is the actual sewing thread can be hidden.  To hide the thread, you need to use the right needle, thread and a few other items.    
  • Pressing -VS- Ironing - Ironing is a process you do on 'fake Egyptian cotton bed linen' and blue jeans.  Pressing is a process you do on fine table linens, high quality clothing and Giza Egyptian Cotton Bed Linen
  • Sewing Aids - As I demonstrate various sewing techniques, I'll include info on various sewing aids
  • Painting Your Sails - Simple fabric painting techniques to add color to your sails. 

Specific Sewing Techniques

  • A Properly Sewn Line of Stitching - A primary discussion point about sewn sails is the stitch length is out of scale. A properly sewn line of stitching, 'melts' into the fabric and the thread will absorb or reflect the light to give the desired effect / results. 
  • Straight Parallel Lines - A few simple techniques to sew consistent parallel lines
  • Hemming - Simple, in scale hems
  • And More - Still to be developed / under construction

 

 Here's an excerpt of info from my article that discusses fabric weave patter that I discussed in the test post: 

 

Here's the same weave patterns with a 'line of sewing' added.  This is to demonstrate how a line of sewing blends into a simple weave pattern fabric.  But on a bed linen / sateen weave fabric, this line of sewing is very visible.  Further, due to the weave pattern, there is no strength from top to bottom, so the sateen weave fabric will pucker when sewing and sag when added to your model.. 

post-206-0-14440900-1480310104_thumb.jpg

 

 

I 'tested the water' for making sails with a post "Fabric For Your Sails and Where To Buy." But there was very little, interest in the post.  Further, a couple of members posted disparaging comments about what I posted on other threads.  So I decided to abandon the project. 

 

I'd be willing to restart the article again.  To get it done in a timely manner, I would need help, specifically some one to be the editor to help me put it all together.  

 

Dee Dee

 

 

P.S.  The NRG article written by Banyan & (supposedly) Dr. Tilley never actually goes into actually sewing sails.  Some of the info is just plain off.  Yes you can use hairspray, but not the stuff off the shelf at CVS, Walgreens or the local hair salon or Sally's Beauty Supply store.  That sugar solution is hilarious and a really terrible suggestion.  The section that was written by Dr. Tilley was actually copied / pasted from the fifth post on this Fine Scale Modeler forum thread:  http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling_subjects/f/7/t/33775.aspx

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.