New guy looking for suggestions

[Afonso]

Hi guys,

 

so really quickly about myself. I'm a history buff, and always loved the ships and how they looked. 31y old, with some free time, but not too much.

 

When i realized the ship modelling exists, i've purchased Occre's Golden Hind, and i was amazed by how awesome it looked. Unfortunately as a complete beginner, i've made quite a few mistakes at the start of the assembly, also didn't use the best glue and made something at the start that i really didn't like. So i kinda gave up at the model, and i'm kinda having issues with returning to it currently, as i feel it would take me a long time just to fix it.

 

Now to my questions/problems. I'm a huge fan of Portuguese and Spanish history, especially 16th and 17th centuries. I've read countless books and studies, and even worked as researcher for some mods for popular games (EU4, Total War), and i can only see myself doing a ship that fits that period. Something that i would proudly have on a mantle in my living room. 

 

So that brings me to my problems. I'm a complete beginner, but i can't imagine myself spending my free time working on a "beginner" model of a ship, like a small boat, to really learn the techniques, and then gradually improve. If i do get into this world, i would like to create a kickass galleon or something from the start. I would be willing to take it slow, but I am wondering if it's feasable in a any shape or form to do this? 

 

If so, does anyone have any suggestions on which one to buy to start? I was looking for example at the Occre's San Martin, but i have read that the ship isn't historically correct. And this is another huge thing for me; i don't want to create a "fantasy" ship, i really want a historical one, that looks like it's supposed to look. I did write to Occre about it, and they told me that they take their designs from the a book which i don't know how much can be trusted, the Arquitectura de las Naos y Galeones de las Flotas de Indias.

 

So if anyone has any suggestions for me let me know please. Any suggestions for any good, historically correct Galleons for example would be amazing, and ofc any feedback if it's possible to start fresh with such a model, or should i just forget about until i can get the motivation to build the small boats first to learn about what to do.

 

Thank you very much,

 

Afonso

 

 

 

 

[GrandpaPhil]

Welcome!

The thing about a lot of those earlier ships is the lack of actual technical drawings so complete accuracy for a given ship could be difficult to come by.

Having said that, a caravel, carrack or cog, would make a good starter build as they had relatively simple rigs and were not overly ornamental.  They would also make nice display pieces.

 

Something to consider about your Golden Hind is that a model that can’t be completely properly salvaged makes a great learning tool for learning new techniques.  I’m doing that with my Victory that has a twisted hull.

[ccoyle]

Ditto the comments regarding historicity made by Phil. For additional options for ships of that period, though not Spanish/Portuguese, check out the offerings from MarisStella. Several of them have been featured in build logs here, and they appear to be very nice kits.

 

Cheers!

[tarbrush]

Hi Alfonso, Welcome to MSW

you asked: "I am wondering if it's feasible in a any shape or form to do this?" 

I would say yes, it definitely is,  you already have the most important thing to do a successful build, your extreme interest.

Now we just have to find the best kit for you to start with.    Be sure to start a build log, there is a lot of help available to you here on MSW!

[Jim Lad]

Hello Afonso, and a warm welcome to MSW.

 

I can't recommend a kit for you but, as John said, what you want to do is definitely feasible - just add a little care and patience! 

 

John

[Torbogdan]

Are you a complete beginner to building models or do you have any previous experience with other forms of models? Have you built plastic models? Have you worked with wood, building other things in wood (model houses, wagons, cannons?)

 

Are you patient? Do you enjoy doing the same thing many times over without being bored? Building ship models demands patience and the ability to do repetitive tasks again and again and again.

 

Finally to be a bit blunt if you tried the Golden Hind and failed chances are you will fail with the next "big" model also. I STRONGLY suggest you start with something smaller and easier kit before going on to something big/difficult. I know it sounds boring but it is better to learn some skills with something small and easy than with something big and expensive. 

 

If you just want a nice ship model on display, buy one and save many hours of spare time. 

 

 

[Jaager]

Afonso,

First off  - what is your location on Terra?

Second - You have set up a situation with mutually exclusive requirements.  Kit + 16th C.,17th C., + Iberia + accurate

There are a few vessels from that time with documentation.  Vasa is sort of at the top - Northern Europe  . 

Most of the recent finds from your area of interest have been done by nautical archaeologists.  It is my impression that they do not hold us  in high regard.  Little that they find seems to reach us in a form that we can use.

 

Should you change one requirement = kit  to scratch, there are several possibilities. 

This requires that your standards for accurate be realistic.

I have series of books about an Iberian find at Red Bay, Canada,  these plus the recent articles in SIS documenting a model,  could be the basis for a build.

The following will require loose, very loose limits for accuracy:

I have plans for a Manila Galleon - also SIS I think.  This part of SIS is now NRG content?

AOTS has a volume with speculative plans for the first squadron of C.Columbus.  ( also from Britain  Mary Rose and Susan Constant ) 

Wm Baker did plans for Mayflower - with some aspects and choices being seriously questioned.

In the 1970's  there was available from Verlag Delius, Klasing & Co. a series of books with plans for your time of interest. They may appear for sale from time to time.

Osprey has a Spanish Galleon issue.

NIP volume - probably Conway - The Galleon by Peter Kirsch.

There are several books  about Kogg finds.

The maritime museums in Iberia may have plans or plans of reconstructions.

Until your skill level reaches a level where you do not need to ask,  I seriously advise sailing well away from kits or plans for multi deck warships - especially those from the 17th C.

[vaddoc]

7 hours ago, Afonso said:

I'm a complete beginner, but i can't imagine myself spending my free time working on a "beginner" model of a ship, like a small boat, to really learn the techniques, and then gradually improve

Welcome Afonso!

Even a small boat can be surprisingly difficult to make, especially large scale scratch built. But it is also equally surprisingly fun and rewarding.  

 

Vaddoc

[luponero]

Hi Afonso,
it was never easy for me to choose the model I would like to make, they are all beautiful, and everyone brings you their story, surely you will not miss the stimuli and directions to make them,

 

welcome

[mtaylor]

Welcome to MSW, Afonso.  

 

I hate to say it, but start with something small with one mast and comparatively inexpensive.  It will give you the basic skills to handle a more complex ship.  It might even be a good thing to do a small ship's boat (but at a good physical size) and jump back a bit to your Golden Hind.   

 

Also, you might want to look at the Index of Kit builds for the Golden Hind and learn from them while working on yours.  Here's a link to the Index. It will download a PDF to your computer.  https://modelshipworld.com/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=553744    And for all the kits here's the main topic:  https://modelshipworld.com/topic/17023-quick-find-indexes-to-build-logs-for-kits/

 

 

[JeffT]

Welcome to MSW Alfonso 

[Afonso]

Wow, hi everyone.

 

That's some overwhelming amount of responses, had no idea this forum would be so active. Thank you very much for all the feedback and welcome!

 

@Torbogdan I did build a revell plastic plane 20 years ago as a kid. Does that count?  As i said, i really can't think of myself making a kit i wouldn't love from the start. I failed at the Golden Hind because i made some really silly mistakes, like not actually watching the pictures, and i didn't even watch a tutorial whatsoever which i plan to do with my next kit. There's bound to be some out there right?

 

@Jaager My location on terra is Slovenia. I find it terrible what you just said, of the lack of documentation. Vasa sounds great, and i'm also a big fan of Swedish history, but building at ship that sank right away feels kinda weird hah. As i said i'm a complete beginner, so i have no idea what half the words you used mean. Are you actually suggesting i build a ship completly by myself?  how would that even work? I don't have a workshop at home (yet). I do have the Osprey book on the Galleons, i should probably check it too see if there's any model inside that is actually available.

 

I am surprised by the lack of data. I've been in naval museums in Lisbon, Madrid and Havana, and saw plenty of ships which i assumed were accurate. I therefore also assumed that the kits you can buy would be accurate too.

 

As i said, i'm going to be honest, and i really can't see myself working on a ship that wasn't like the top of the line ship for it's era. I would just lack the motivation to work on it. 

 

So if perhaps anyone has a suggestion about a galleon/carrack that might be feasible, that would be nice  

 

But if not, i will also appreciate you guys telling me the harsh truth, and make me find another hobby for now.

 

P.S. Why is there such huge difference between the San Martin from Occre and Dusek? Do they have completely different sources or are they just winging it?

 

Thank you guys a lot again, and thanks for future posts as well!

[Jaager]

Afonso,

My suggestion was that you build completely from just plans and materials that you directly obtain.  I based this on you being on a mission and seriously focused on it.

I see now that you are coming in to this with less of a view of this landscape than I thought.

Before the internet,  when starting this,  it was a local club - if you were extremely lucky,  otherwise it was books and magazines or journals dedicated to ship modeling and books about building the original ships, some of the books were reprints of books written at the time of the ships.   The best of the books and best of the journal articles demonstrated and encouraged building from scratch.   Unless your previous experience involved woodworking at the cabinet maker or fine furniture maker level,  the learning curve was/is steep.  It pretty much requires owning or having access to some fairly expensive tools, especially at the milling your own stock from lumber stage.  When you have the materials - mainly wood stock with the proper dimensions - expensive tools are not necessary, but they make things go faster and easier.  But you still will not be able to mimic Graham Chapman and build a model in bed, at night in the dark. (Monty Python)

A ship, especially a warship,  involved/involves the most advanced technology of the culture building it.  It is a serious endeavor.  Should you wish to build a model of one, a model that is reasonably close to the original and that, in your imagination, could grace a museum,  building it from scratch is still the way.  This is especially true if your subject is unique or has been rarely modeled.  Kits are primarily about making money for the mfg.  They require being economical with the component materials, using methods that as many as possible can execute, and subjects with broad appeal and are supplied in  large numbers.  At the extreme, it is about selling a fantasy, an expensive fantasy that is more often than not beyond the existing skills of the buyer.  At that level,  the skill involved in the overall process is in the advertising, not in craftsmanship. 

Edited October 26, 2019 by Jaager

[Hubert Boillot]

Afonso, I am nothing like the masters here, who will certainly have better advice than me.

But if you are looking for Spanish or Portuguese ships of the XVI/XVII Century, I would suggest you look at one of the Colombus triplet (Santa Maria / Nina / Pinta). I believe they exist in kits, are extensively researched with some great books on them,  and still are not too complex, especially the smaller ones ....

If you can find one, but they are scarce and awfully expensive, I also believe there is an Imai (plastic) kit of the Mataro, one of the most iconic ship models of Spain (it is a genuine XV or XVI Century ex-voto. Maybe not an accurate representation of a real ship, but the kit reproduces a famous model 😉 )

HTH

Hubert

[Torbogdan]

There might not be a good tutorial for the model you choose. Hopefully there is a thread here on this forum, but don't count on it. Check out the ships from Dusek. I have built two models from them and have a third in the closet. The instructions have been very good. In many cases they are available on their webpage to down load. that way you can have a look at them before you decide if you want to go ahead and buy and build.

 

If you really feel for a more advanced model go ahead and buy it and start to build! It is a hobby after all, nothing "important". In the absolute worst case you realize it was not for you and you have lost a little money, no-one is hurt or anything like that. So go ahead and try! you will find lots of helpful people and advice here.

 

Go slow when building and have persistence, do not give up. Do some work every day and sooner or later you will be done. The hobby is not rocket science and if you break a part you can always build a new one as you work with wood. I would say the most important trait to have is persistence, to do the same thing again and again and again. 

[GrandpaPhil]

I’ve heard really good things about Dusek’s kits (I’ve never built one, but the La Real Galley is on the list of kits that I would like) and they have a series of kits that are depictions of the Santa Maria (which was a carrack) as well as the Pinta and the Nina (which were caravels).

 

Any of those would be great starter kits.

 

They also have a nice kit of the Golden Hinde.

 

Their Kogge looks nice too.

[ChadB]

8 hours ago, Afonso said:

But if not, i will also appreciate you guys telling me the harsh truth, and make me find another hobby for now.

 

 

Ok, I'll wade in since you explicitly asked for the harsh truth! 😉 

In your first post you said these two things...

On 10/25/2019 at 6:59 AM, Afonso said:

When i realized the ship modelling exists, i've purchased Occre's Golden Hind, and i was amazed by how awesome it looked. Unfortunately as a complete beginner, i've made quite a few mistakes at the start of the assembly, also didn't use the best glue and made something at the start that i really didn't like. So i kinda gave up at the model, and i'm kinda having issues with returning to it currently, as i feel it would take me a long time just to fix it.

 

On 10/25/2019 at 6:59 AM, Afonso said:

So that brings me to my problems. I'm a complete beginner, but i can't imagine myself spending my free time working on a "beginner" model of a ship, like a small boat, to really learn the techniques, and then gradually improve.

 

The first problem I see is that the Golden Hind essentially IS a beginner's kit. Screwing up on a beginner's kit is what happens when you start out. Like anything else you build skills through your first couple kits and get better and better over time. I cringe looking at my first kit builds and hope to do the same in ten years looking at my current scratch builds. It's the way any hobby works and model shipbuilding is no different. You can read every book there is about planking a hull but you just have to do it to get good at it. The good news is you can totally create a kickass galleon while skipping beginner kits, but there's going to be tons of screwups along the way that will be probably just as bad as the ones you faced in your Golden Hind. Are you prepared to put in the time and money rebuilding stuff and rebuying wood? You have to have the desire and patience to make it through those rough times.

The next troubling point is this...

On 10/25/2019 at 6:59 AM, Afonso said:

And this is another huge thing for me; i don't want to create a "fantasy" ship, i really want a historical one, that looks like it's supposed to look.

16th and 17th century aren't my area of expertise, but I'm pretty sure most shipbuilding at that time was done through a shipbuilder's experience and not necessarily plans. Most kits of ships from this time period are based off simple length and breadth dimensions that were written down somewhere and the rest filled in using information gathered over time on carracks and galleons. I think you would need to specify a bit more what your baseline for "historically accurate" is... that term means WAAAY different things to different people in model ship building. There are VERY few models that don't contain a certain percentage of conjecture, and the farther you go back timewise the higher that percentage becomes. If you find that the selection of kits available do not meet that baseline, then you are venturing into scratchbuilding and you would want to start with Jaager's post (and learn what those words mean) and start digging into those sources.


So that's MY harsh truth for you. I won't tell you you can't do it because I'd love more than anything for you to prove to me and everyone here you can, but I will truthfully say that you have set many self-imposed obstacles for yourself that are going to make your chances of successfully building your model very small. It's a wonderful hobby but it takes an incredible amount of patience and time to get to the bar you are setting for yourself, but the good news is this is the place to help you reach that bar! My advice would be to keep your money in your pocket right now and explore some build logs here- find ones for kits you are interested in, read through them to see what the pitfalls are, and what people did differently to make them better. That is going to help you make a much better decision than any advice you will get in this post (including mine!😉).

 

Good luck and I truly hope to see a build log in your future!
 

Chad

[Gregory]

To get a feel for how challenging this hobby can be, take a look at the index of wood ship build logs ..

 

Note how many of them read " Finished "..

 

Also look at the  ship kit build log forum..  Note that if you click over to the middle of the topics, after about 45 pages or so, the logs have not been updated for over two years..

[mtaylor]

Afonso,,

 

I go along with what ChadB said.  Start simple... trust us on this.   

 

As for kits for ships of the period you're looking for... the only one I can think of that IS accurate is the Billings Vasa.  They worked with the Vasa Museum and were constantly updating the model.  But it's not of countries your looking for and it is considered an "Advanced" kit.  I did build it and it was my only second ship build.  I had a lot of problems learning how to do it  so it looked good.

 

Anyway, we're here to help which is a big reason MSW exists.  If you go for a bigger model, then we'll help when we can.  

 

While you're thinking about it, go ahead and finish your Golden Hind,  It will be a good learning experience especially if you open a log.

[Afonso]

Again guys, thanks for all the feedback.

 

Ok so what i've deducted so far. Starting something from scratch is out of the question for me for now. It's just too much of a challenge and too time consuming. I will definitely choose a kit for starters. If i ever reach a high enough level, then i might consider doing something from scratch.

 

So you guys have given me a lot to think of. I am wondering if our definition of ahistorical models is different. For example, if i choose the occre's San Martin. What i really like about the kit is that it's relatively inexpensive, so even if i do give up again i won't feel like crap. It's the same price as some complete beginner models, but i am wondering, what is the "wrong" with the model? Like what would an expert say when he looks at a ship like this? 

 

Also, what is the difference between the 2? At first site, apart from colors, i can only see difference in the way that the occre model seems a bit more bulky, but i am wondering what the differences really are. I can see the difference in the cannons, the back of the ship, a bit on how the stairs are etc... But i dunno about others

 

Again, thanks a billion for all your help and thoughts

 

Edited October 27, 2019 by Afonso

[ChadB]

Hey Afonso,

 

A quick look at the Occre vs Dusek and the first thing is the scale is different. Occre is 1/90 while the Dusek is 1/72, so the Dusek kit will be bigger and hence a bit more expensive. Also from the videos it looks to me like the Dusek kit has higher quality wood, laser cut parts, and smaller bits like cannons and blocks. I've actually never looked into Dusek kits until now but they look pretty nice.
 

What would an expert say? "Expert" can be a slippery term just like "historically accurate." An expert in galleons would probably say "yup, that's pretty much what a galleon looks like" and an expert in model ship building would say "yup, that's the Occre kit alright." Here's my advice on that subject and one many around here would probably say the same. Build for yourself because most people won't give a rip about your finished model. Here's what will happen when you finish it and have it proudly displayed... your friends and family will come over, see it, look at it for a few minutes, then say "Wow- I'd never have the patience to do that!" and then move on to something else.😀If you happen to know a galleon expert, then I'll let someone else chime in on how that may go.😉 

What I'm trying to get to is use the build to become your own expert! It sounds like you've already read and studied quite a bit about the time and already know a bit about the ships- use that info to change your kit (people call it kitbashing) along the way to make it more accurate! I 100% guarantee that this will make the experience way more enjoyable and fulfilling. Pick up a kit (or continue on your Occre kit), a book or two that have some basic info on ship building (my first books were Wolfram Zu Mondfeld's 'Historic Model Ships' and Milton Roth's 'Ship Modeling from Stem to Stern') and change a couple little things along the way to make it more historically accurate. This is going to make you love your model more AND  poking through books like the ones I mentioned will probably open you up to other ships from different nationalities and times that you may want to explore a bit more. Your friends and family still won't care that your guns are rigged or your deck is planked according to 16th century shipbuilding conventions but you'll know and be all the happier for it! There's a ton of small companies out there that sell more accurate gun barrels, rigging line, and better wood strips for not much money. Model shipbuilding is similar to EU4- sure, it's a fun game vanilla and you could play it that way your entire life, but adding mods and learning a bit along the way will make it that much more enjoyable! 

 

 

Chad

Chad

[Torbogdan]

I would suggest the Pinta as a good starting kit from Dusek. I have built it and it is an fairly easy build. The instructions are very good. The kit is not that expensive either. So if it matches your criteria in period, accuracy and so on it is a good one to start with.

[Afonso]

Hey,

 

some great points @ChadB, i haven't really thought about the scale. The Dusek one does look better, but damn, it's 3 times the price. 

 

@Torbogdan I have looked at the Columbuses ships.... But man, i want cannons, i want the presence of a warship  I know it's "lame", but it's the reason why i got interested in this in the first place, when i saw the models in the museums of the warships.

 

You have given me a lot to think about... I will probably make a decision soon, in the mean time if you guys have any more suggestions fire away...

[Gregory]

5 hours ago, Afonso said:

Like what would an expert say when he looks at a ship like this? 

 

If that were a fair example of a completed model here at MSW, the expert ship modelers here would probably be generous with their praise and encouragement..

 

There are two San Martin kits in the build index, with one showing a lot of progress and last updated in July of this year. The other had very little progress, and was last updated almost six years ago.

 

Edited October 27, 2019 by Gregory

[stuglo]

I would go for the San Felipe,Panart. It was my 3rd build (after the the Corel Victory). The smaller boats are often more difficult and though cheaper, the materials are often inferior and difficult to work. Also, the preformed wooden parts are often more trouble due to their inaccuracies. The many blogs on this site for similar ships can guide you as well as the technical articles published.Also The Period Ship Handbook 3 by Keith Julier deals with this (I only bought the book after the build) The finished model is good on the eye and will teach you many techniques for use in subsequent builds. Not cheap, but in terms of hours of satisfaction, if not pleasure, its value for money. Power tools can wait, research, thought and asking for help will get you there. Good luck

 

[Afonso]

20 hours ago, Gregory said:

If that were a fair example of a completed model here at MSW, the expert ship modelers here would probably be generous with their praise and encouragement..

 

There are two San Martin kits in the build index, with one showing a lot of progress and last updated in July of this year. The other had very little progress, and was last updated almost six years ago.

 

Yeah, that one looks amazing.

 

I'm not willing to put a huge amount of money yet into my first kit, but i am willing to go up to around 200€, perhaps more if it would be amazing. So the suggestions for the 400€+ kits are off limits for now

 

So far the best i've seen for the price are the San Martin and Apostol Felipe from Occre. So i'm probably going to yolo it and choose one of the 2... I'm still open to some other suggestions, but i think it kinda has to be a Galleon. The Carracks that i've seen look kinda not as fearsome as i hoped, and i can't find anywhere the great Portuguese Carracks available, like the ones da Gama or Albuquerque used.

[Afonso]

5 hours ago, Dubz said:

Buy cheap buy twice .... you will get much more frustration as a beginner with a cheap kit with cheap materials as with a better one. Just my 2 cent. Calculate the money/fun time factor 😉 

 

Dirk

I can see your point... Still, my wife probably kills me if i buy a 500€ kit instead of something actually useful XD. At least before she knows it's a real hobby. Are the below 3 kits that much worse in quality?

 

So i'm basically down to 3 ships that fit all my parameters. The San Martin from Occre for 150€, the Apostol Felipe from Occre for 260€, and the Dusek San Martin for 370€...

 

From what i've read the Occre reviews are pretty good, and also the Apostol Felipe comes from an era of Spain which i really like. If anyone has any feedback for these 3 i would really appreciate it (again), like if there are some huge pitfalls with any of these kits that someone new wouldn't notice etc... 

 

Again, i know it's annoying to keep thanking you guys for the feedback, but thanks a lot

[ccoyle]

Truth be told, a lot of how good a finished model looks depends on the builder. Some of the newer kits are amazing and take much of the guesswork out of the building process, but a determined builder can make even a mediocre kit look good.  In the end, you'd be well advised to choose one that really appeals to you, since you'll be more motivated to finish a model of a subject that you actually like. If you really like the San Martin, then you can probably build it.

 

Have fun!

 

[stuglo]

As a man married for 45 years who built  a (plastic kit) Bentley on his honeymoon, may I suggest that the wife doesn't need to know the cost of a kit, just let her see the therapeutic effects of the building process.

[Afonso]

44 minutes ago, ccoyle said:

Truth be told, a lot of how good a finished model looks depends on the builder. Some of the newer kits are amazing and take much of the guesswork out of the building process, but a determined builder can make even a mediocre kit look good.  In the end, you'd be well advised to choose one that really appeals to you, since you'll be more motivated to finish a model of a subject that you actually like. If you really like the San Martin, then you can probably build it.

 

Have fun!

 

I actually like the Apostol Felipe more... Do you think this model is much harder than the San Martin?

 

And while i am a complete beginner, surprisingly my wife is quite good with woodwork, so i'll be able to get some help along the way