Dying/coloring rope; sources for purchase of quality rope

[Tomculb]

I'm at a point where the only rope I have available for the running rigging need at hand is very white.  I tried soaking it in coffee for about an hour, but that didn't darken it very much.  What methods and dyes have people successfully used to get the color they want?

 

Also, now that Chuck Pasoro is no longer manufacture his great looking rope, what other sources have people found for quality rope?  My next build is from Model Shipways and I'm not impressed with what is supplied in the kit, especially the running rigging.

 

Thanks for your thoughts.

[kurtvd19]

Coffee is loaded with tannic acid and it will lead to premature failure of fabrics.  People have used it to color sails - and I have made a lot of $$ when I did restorations needed to replace sails and rigging dyed with tea.  Fabric dyes can work and don't damage the rope/material.

[Gregory]

The problem with dyeing/coloring, synthetics don't take color very well, and naturals; cotton, linen, etc.  may not hold up well over time, with coloring.

 

If coffee didn't work, it sounds like you are dealing with synthetic.

 

One of our sponsors, CraftySailor has some that looks good in the pictures..  Not sure how competitive they are,

But I have had real good experience buying other products from them..

 

 

And don't forget:   Making your own rope

Edited March 2, 2021 by Gregory

[druxey]

Coffee or tea are to be avoided, as Kurt has said. So many threads are available in myriad of colors, so you should be able to find what you need without the mess and chore of dyeing your own.

[Chuck Seiler]

    I have used Higgins Sepia calligraphy ink, treated with Renaissance archival wax for standing rigging.  I needed to use several coats of ink to get it dark enough, but still probably should have been darker.  (Note 1.  Most kit standing rigging is black but if you look at some of Chuck's past post on rigging, the consensus is that true pine tar rigging was a very dark brown.  Note 2,  Higgins ink is not water resistent.  The archival wax kind of waterproofs it and is non-acid, unlike beeswax.

 

    I am hoping to get a Syren ropewalk soon (if Chuck doesn't sell out the next batch before I can jump in) but am unsure if I will be up, running and fully functional (i.e. making good rope) before I am  ready to rig my current project.  I am experimenting with a mixture black and sepia Dr. Ph. Martin's Bombay India Ink.  They both are supposed to be waterproof.   

[vaddoc]

I d second making your own rope. Great fun, great rope.

[Roger Pellett]

I am fortunate to have several sizes of “Cuttyhunk” hard twisted linen line.  I used it to rig my 1:32 scale longboat model.

 

I first made a table of all lines, standing and running on the boat and the diameter of each line required.  Where necessary I converted from circumference.  I then measured the sizes that I had available using the system of counting the number of turns wrapped around a known distance on a dowel and matched these up with required sizes as closely as possible.  It’s better to rig with lines slightly smaller than too large.  Where necessary for smaller sizes I filled in with cotton thread and fly tying line.

 

In his wonderful book about restoring the model of the Dutch ship Valkenisse Rob Napier includes a discussion about dying linen rigging line.  After considerable research he decided to use Pro Chemical fiber reactive cold water dyes.  The book includes instructions and formulas.  I bought the necessary colors from Pro Chemical plus the necessary fixative.  I followed his instructions, or at least I thought so, and wound up with white thread!  At that point I said.  @#$&* I need to finish this model and pulled out my trusty bottle of  Feibeig dark brown leather dye plus some dark maple wood dye.  I used these for standing and running rigging.  Color could be adjusted by varying exposure time to the dye  and the aggressiveness of wiping down the line after dying the.  I was quite pleased with the results.

 

If the dye eats the line I’ll either re-rig the model, or will be to the point where I’m unable to care.

 

I still have my jars of Pro Chemical dyes.  I will see if I can get them to work on my next model.

 

Roger

[Tomculb]

Thank you all for your responses . . . very helpful.

[allanyed]

Closehaul

My sincere apologies if this comes across poorly, but is the material in the photo what the kit supplies?   The reason I ask is that it is quite different than rope.  You can see samples of rope from Syren (photo below) or any rope made on a rope walk thus my question.  Beeswax may knock down the fuzzies, but it will still not look like rope.   I hope someone comes up with a source for rope as I have pretty well concluded that otherwise I will be learning to make rope myself in the future.       

Allan

[closehaul]

On 3/9/2021 at 6:00 PM, allanyed said:

Closehaul

My sincere apologies if this comes across poorly, but is the material in the photo what the kit supplies?   The reason I ask is that it is quite different than rope.  You can see samples of rope from Syren (photo below) or any rope made on a rope walk thus my question.  Beeswax may knock down the fuzzies, but it will still not look like rope.   I hope someone comes up with a source for rope as I have pretty well concluded that otherwise I will be learning to make rope myself in the future.       

Allan

Thank you Allen, sorry for the delayed response, but just seen it as I deleted my post. That photo was the spool of white line supplied by the kit which I stained with Minwax wood oil stain. I unreeled the entire spool in my garage then applied the oil stain with a rag and after it dried a day wound it back on the spool. I see what you mean about the beeswax and to get a more realistic rope. I have back ordered that line displayed in this topic from craftysailor to achieve a better look on the rigging lines. Your input has been valued in my line selection for my build and should be on my build log in the not too distant future.

 

[Gregory]

I'm revisiting this in response to the original post.

 

On 3/2/2021 at 2:26 PM, Tomculb said:

What methods and dyes have people successfully used to get the color they want?

 

There was a discussion about staining/dyeing boxwood where it was agreed boxwood doesn't take some stains very well.  One or more people mentioned dyeing with an alcohol based stain.

 

I proceeded to get some  Fiebling's dark brown shoe dye to experiment.  It actually worked pretty good to make my boxwood blocks darker.

 

I had thought, and mentioned above, that I didn't think synthetic/polyester would take dye very well, with the idea that it was like trying to dye plastic and wouldn't stick.

 

Well, I was wrong.

 

On a whim, I dyed some of my home made polyester rope with the above mentioned dye and it really worked pretty good.

 

Top is before, bottom is same rope dyed.  ( Please ignore the unravelling..    That happened before I baked my rope.. )

 

Getting the color you want could take a lot of experimenting, and have a lot to do with the color you start with.

 

For home rope makers, I see it as a way to avoid getting different colored thread for standing and running rigging..

 

Find a good light color you like for running rigging, then dye it dark for the standing..

 

Note: The dye can be very messy, but it cleans up pretty easily with alcohol, depending on how long it sits before you get to it..

 

[glbarlow]

On 3/2/2021 at 1:40 PM, Gregory said:

One of our sponsors, CraftySailor has some that looks good in the pictures..  Not sure how competitive they are,

I tried some Crafty Sailor rope, it is terrible. The .018 size was way to small, .012 at best. When I cut it, the first three or more inches sprang unraveled like a broken clock spring. 
 

I emailed Crusty Sailor, who does have great to scale wood belaying pins, the answer was “that’s the way it came from the manufacturer.”  I would not recommend this rope, not at all good quality. 

[Gregory]

Thanks for checking it out and reporting back.

Edited June 15, 2021 by Gregory

[BenD]

I'm going to be selling rope very soon. I'm hoping to open by the end of the month, Possibly early July. I'll be on the sponsors list.

 

22 minutes ago, glbarlow said:

When I cut it, the first three or more inches sprang unraveled like a broken clock spring. 

Synthetics tend to do this unless you bake it afterward. My rope does not unravel like this. When you cut it with a sharp blade it will go through a rigging block without unraveling.  Ease of use was one of my main concerns along with color and texture. 

 

 

[glbarlow]

29 minutes ago, BenD said:

selling rope very soon

Looking forward to giving your rope a try

[Chuck Seiler]

Ben (and anyone who might know),

 

    During a recent discussion about model rope at a model club meeting, two veteran rope makers said that they did not like the polyester rope because it tended to sag or over-tighten over time due to humidity.  Does baking fix that?

[Gregory]

How much time?

 

Isn't just bout any material going to change with humidity if it is not sealed in some way?

[BenD]

8 minutes ago, Chuck Seiler said:

  During a recent discussion about model rope at a model club meeting, two veteran rope makers said that they did not like the polyester rope because it tended to sag or over-tighten over time due to humidity.  Does baking fix that?

As far as I know polyester only sags over time and isn't highly affected by moisture.  The baking is to "set" the rope so it doesn't unravel.  Another problem with polyester is the shiny texture.

[Gregory]

9 minutes ago, BenD said:

Another problem with polyester is the shiny texture.

I feel like the baking tones that down somewhat..

[Chuck Seiler]

13 minutes ago, Gregory said:

How much time?

I dunno, days...weeks?  From the conversation I got the impression "it looked fine a couple days ago and now it is saggy/overstight (pick one).

[Gregory]

I suspect Chuck sold thousands of feet of the stuff.  We should have some feedback on the sag factor..

[VTHokiEE]

19 minutes ago, Chuck Seiler said:

I dunno, days...weeks?  From the conversation I got the impression "it looked fine a couple days ago and now it is saggy/overstight (pick one).

I built my Cutter Alert mainly using polyester rope and it certainly hasn't sagged or over tightened in days/weeks. There are certain aspects of natural rope that I really enjoy, but I felt getting the appropriate tension was much easier with polyester rope. However, I have no idea what it will look like months/years down the line.

[Gregory]

In this topic, Chuck said:

 

Quote

I was hired by a major well known museum in Europe (I wont mention their name) to make several thousand feet of rope for them.  They were going to use it to restore a contemporary model....and also to rig a newer model.  But they told me they have now decided that polyester scale ropes are being used from this point forward because of its longevity and its crispness and beauty. 

 

Hard to argue with that..

[bartley]

Make your own is, in my opinion, the answer to many of the issues raised.  To a certain extent you can control the appearance to suit.  Gutermann Mara comes in such a range of colours that dyeing is unnecessary, and, as I pointed out in my Cheerful build, you have matching seizing thread in sizes from 0.1 to 0.3 mm.

 

John

Edited June 15, 2021 by bartley

[Chuck]

Cotton and natural rope actually sags more than poly.  It is so finicky when it comes to moisture.  What you describe as sagging one hour and super tight the next absolutely happens with natural and especially cotton ropes.   In fact....if you rig with cotton rope on an especially humid day and make your lines tight......when it dries out the next day the lines will shrink.  I have seen belaying pins pull away from the bulwarks when this happens because cotton shrinks when wet and then it dries.

 

Poly on the other hand is more slippery but has much more stretch.  So if the lines are taught the stretchiness tends to prevent any sagging at all.  Its a trade off.  I like the natural stuff but it tends to be fuzzy.   I also like the poly ropes because it is so crisp and clean.   

 

Now that the unravelling issue is solved,  it is just a matter of personal preference.  

 

I never belay my lines permanently when first rigged.  I let them sit and adjust for a while.  Then I tension them later and permanently belay them.  That helps with either material.  With poly line there is no dye needed.  Only certain brands are really shiny.  So many colors to choose from.  Cotton is more problematic that way although good color choices are out there.   It just tends to be kind of fuzzy.

 

Chuck

[Tony Hunt]

Has anyone tried using a product called Tuff Cord?  A local supplier sells it here for ship model rigging but I've not heard anyone talk about it.

 

It seems to be mostly used by jewelry makers (e.g. https://www.limabeads.com/Tuff-Cord-C7581). It's description says "Tuff Cord is a 3 ply twisted bonded cord made from long nylon filaments. Super strong, it will not stretch or stain, and resists fraying and shredding under most conditions."  Which sounds pretty good. It comes in a range of browns and blacks, and sizes (#0) starting at 0.2 mm diameter and it looks like it has a reasonably "ropelike" appearance.

 

Is there any difference in performance (appearance, stability, durability etc) between polyester and nylon?  

Edited August 10, 2021 by Tony Hunt

[Bob Cleek]

14 hours ago, Tony Hunt said:

Is there any difference in performance (appearance, stability, durability etc) between polyester and nylon?  

"Nylon" and "polyester" are somewhat generic descriptions. There is a range of characteristics in each that can affect their suitability for modeling. These characteristics include the tightness of the lay, the material's inherent resistance to degradation from UV radiation, the behavior of the material in relation to the ambient humidity, whether UV inhibitors have been added, and the color of the material, among other things. You'd need a degree in chemistry to sort it all out. In this instance, the cord is made for stringing beads and the beads will cover the cord, so it might not be treated with UV inhibitors. You'd have to have the data on the particular chemistry of the specific nylon or polyester material to be able to judge which offered the better archival qualities. Given the amount of labor that goes into properly rigging a model, the choice of rigging material is probably not the best area to be taking chances. Stick with what others have found to be suitable for the job.

[kurtvd19]

Chances are it doesn't resemble rope in appearance.

[allanyed]

Tony,

Saw this stuff  a few years ago and from what I remember it does not look anything like rope and the sizes are limited.  There are dozens of sizes of rigging on a ship, but for a model usually 4 or 5 sizes of running and 3 or 4 sizes for standing rigging  suffice, depending on the scale.    You mention black.   Keep in mind that  Stockholm tar on ship rigging in the days of sail was more of a dark brown.  I agree with the comment above, if at all possible get a color that you want, staining just adds another potential for a mistake.  If you must stain, In addition to numerous stains and methods mentioned here at MSW there is also commercially available Stockholm pine tar which mixed with purified linseed oil makes a good stain that supposedly offers UV protection if you must stain your rope.   

Allan