HM Sloop Echo 1781 by VTHokiEE - 1:48 - Cross-Section

[DelF]

Hi Tim

 

I don't know how I missed your log before now, but I'll follow with interest from now on. It's great to see you back in your workshop, and with what looks like a fun project. I love cross-sections, they're full of interesting detail and take up a lot less space than conventional models - I have one framed as a picture on the wall. 

 

Derek

[glbarlow]

Here’s what I got. Note the diameter on lower right. 

[VTHokiEE]

Thanks @DelF

 

Appreciate it @glbarlow and @Justin P. I ordered some 0.45mm line (the bolts I’m trying to simulate are almost 0.5mm) and I’m guessing before I’m done I’ll have ordered a handful more sizes 🙂

[Chuck]

If you can find the black fishing line.  Its cheap enough.  Get a range of weights.   I think 15lb might be a bit small for keel bolts.  Probably 20 or even 25lb is more appropriate.   I have a large stock of the stuff from 10lb all the way up to 60lb.   

 

The brand is Sunset Amnesia.  

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/154155421343?epid=1412250970&hash=item23e4610e9f:g:zHkAAOSw5Z1fkaGO

 

 

 

 

[VTHokiEE]

Thanks @Chuck right now I ordered 25lb line here: https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B07GDLGY4K?ref=ppx_pt2_mob_b_prod_image&th=1&psc=1

 

I’ll order a more full fledged suite from sunset amnesia to cover other sizes. Appreciate it!

Edited November 18, 2021 by VTHokiEE

[VTHokiEE]

I think I'm calling the keel finished (...I'm also out of 0.5mm drill bits. I think I need to find a better set of bits - I've bought the cheap PCB bits off eBay too many times now). The black monofilament above worked perfectly (7/8" bolts at scale). I tried to blacken the brass on the keel and the liquid turned blue as it reacted and dyed the wood (live and learn - I tested the liquid on wood without any brass to react too which was not a quality test as I found out). Now to go pickup a build board (and try not to shed a tear as I bore and tap two holes into the beautiful piece I just built).

 

 

[druxey]

Yes, it's always good to test anything new on scrap material first! Unless, of course, you like living dangerously....

[Thukydides]

2 hours ago, druxey said:

Yes, it's always good to test anything new on scrap material first! Unless, of course, you like living dangerously....

Or doing them all over again 😃...

[popash42]

 very nice beginning 👌,  I will keep following 😀 

[VTHokiEE]

I'm currently pondering how to best cut out frames. I don't have any power tools for the task (but I'm starting to consider a scroll saw ha) so I started with a jeweler's saw to cut out the first two futtock pieces and a cross-chock and used my disc sander for exterior curves and ends. This worked well for the cross-chock but cutting out the slot proved difficult - I tried to may a sanding jig to help but it left some to be desired. I then tried cutting out one of the futtocks in the same manner (I left too much meat on the interior of the piece to hand sand off - ugh), but eventually using a sanding stick I was able to get an okay interior and exterior curve. Again though cutting out the "slots" proved tricky. I tried both a chisel and my jeweler's saw, my chisels are not sharp enough (I plan on picking up a sharpening system) but using the jeweler's saw worked a bit better. I'll need to redo these pieces which brings me to my first question - Would a scroll saw, with practice, help me to cut these notches out? I'm a little space constrained so I still hesitate to pick up either a drill press or a scroll saw yet but I'm nervous about my ability to get straight lines (both horizontally and vertically) for these joints. 

 

 

 

 

[dvm27]

The dean of POF ship modelers used only a jewelers saw so you are in good company. You should be able to make nice keel slots by scoring both sides with a chisel and working from the center out with a chisel. You need a really sharp chisel and much has been written on that subject here already. You can also purchase small square files with the cutting teeth only on the top and bottom. this helps refine the edges.

[WalrusGuy]

6 minutes ago, dvm27 said:

You can also purchase small square files with the cutting teeth only on the top and bottom.

Hi Greg, do you have any suggestions of which brands are good for these kinds of files? And do you know where we can purchase these? To be honest, I had no idea these existed until you pointed it out. 

[VTHokiEE]

29 minutes ago, dvm27 said:

The dean of POF ship modelers used only a jewelers saw so you are in good company. 

Unfortunately I’m not certain I can say they are now in good company (sarcastic and tongue in cheek). I’ll keep working with the jeweler’s saw and see what happens. I’ve been reading a lot of chisel sharpening; I’ll be picking up a kell honing guide in the near future to help there. 

[druxey]

Jewelers' saw or scroll saw, there is still no substitute for a well sharpened chisel to cut a clean, tight fitting joint. (Greg might disagree, but he has heavy milling power at his disposal!)

[VTHokiEE]

Thanks @druxey and @dvm27, I will need some serious practice with my chisels but I’ll get there. I went back and cut out a new cross chock. To set the width of the opening I actually used a razor saw (very slowly) and then chiseled out the interior section. It worked well and I think will be a usable part. Now for the remaining 6 pieces of the frame…

[dvm27]

Safe edges are files which cut on only two surfaces (or sometimes three) and are perfectly flat on the other sides. They are great for refining corners. The pillar files by Grobet on page 12 of https://www.grobetusa.com/content/NEWFile2014.pdf are good examples. Many carpenters grind the edges of their files to make their own.

 

I don't disagree with Druxey that you don't need a mill to make perfect joints.  I just bought a Kell honing guide and love it. But mills are a lot of fun!

Edited November 25, 2021 by dvm27

[DelF]

15 hours ago, WalrusGuy said:

Hi Greg, do you have any suggestions of which brands are good for these kinds of files? And do you know where we can purchase these? To be honest, I had no idea these existed until you pointed it out. 

 

4 hours ago, dvm27 said:

The pillar files by Grobet

 

I would also suggest barrette files, such as those from Vallorbe, one of the top makers. See here for a series of posts discussing these and other files in my Speedy log. The discussion starts off on filing out gunports, but these files are very useful for any jobs where you need to file just one face whilst protecting others.

 

Derek

[VTHokiEE]

6 hours ago, dvm27 said:

But mills are a lot of fun!

I’m trying my best to ignore you but I saw a small Black Friday sale on a proxxon MF70, though so far I have resisted the urge 🙂.

Edited November 25, 2021 by VTHokiEE

[DelF]

59 minutes ago, VTHokiEE said:

so far I have resisted the urge 🙂.

Go on, give in to temptation - you know you want to!

[No Idea]

3 hours ago, VTHokiEE said:

I’m trying my best to ignore you but I saw a small Black Friday sale on a proxxon MF70, though so far I have resisted the urge 🙂.

These are a great little mill especially for wood as the spindle speed is so high. There is very little chipping or tear out with small end mills. 
 

I actually think you are doing a fantastic job with the chisels and your build looks really nice 👍 

[VTHokiEE]

@DelF You’re a trouble maker ha. I think a drill press would realistically be the better purchase (as much as it pains me to say this 😂). I’ve got my eye on the Wen 4212T, but maybe finding one second hand would be even more prudent.

 

@No Idea Thank you! I appreciate the encouragement!

[glbarlow]

I love the Proxxon mill. Didn’t think I needed it, now I don’t know what I’d do without it. Take the plunge, it can be used as a drill press of sorts. The Vallorbe barrette files, which I learned of from Derek, are great tools I use often. 

Edited November 25, 2021 by glbarlow

[Rustyj]

3 hours ago, glbarlow said:

I love the Proxxon mill. Didn’t think I needed it, now I don’t know what I’d do without it.

 

I too took the plunge and agree whole heartedly with Glenn. 

[VTHokiEE]

@glbarlow and @Rustyj You guys are killing me and breaking down my resolve. How am I going to sand my frames with the mill 😂? Sigh decisions decisions maybe if I do the drill second hand but that seems to fill a more immediate need. I do have two of those files actually (had forgotten about them at the moment though 😬).

[mtaylor]

33 minutes ago, VTHokiEE said:

@glbarlow and @Rustyj You guys are killing me and breaking down my resolve. How am I going to sand my frames with the mill 😂?

 

You might just as well give in as resistance is futile.  The Dark Side of the Force beckons.  I went with a Little Machine Shop machine after my MicroMark mini mill died.   Very useful.   As for sanding frames... they make assorted sizes of sanding "cones" (cylinders?) for drills that work well in a mill.  The abrasive sleeves are consumables.

[bartley]

On 11/25/2021 at 9:28 PM, VTHokiEE said:

I’m trying my best to ignore you but I saw a small Black Friday sale on a proxxon MF70, though so far I have resisted the urge 🙂.

If you can afford it I would go with the FX230 because it has a tilting head.  If you ever think that you would need to drill a hole on an angle it is the one to go for but it is about 3X the price of the  MF70.

 

John

[VTHokiEE]

Thanks @bartley not a bad suggestion. I broke down and picked up the MF70 though - I can’t quite justify the larger price tag for a bigger mill yet (and space is unfortunately a bit of a constraint). Of course it is a Christmas present so I still have a month to see what I can do by hand before trying to learn the mill.
 

I misunderstood specs (I thought it would be significantly smaller) and picked up a 3.25 tilting angle vice that I think will be way too big for the MF70 so I may still keep an eye on a drill press if I need to drill some angled holes (or if I really enjoy the mill I’ll need to figure out how to get a larger one that the vice could sit on). 

Edited November 26, 2021 by VTHokiEE

[mtaylor]

Well.. since you have to wait, here's some links to some reading material.  Pretty general stuff but there's some good info.

 

http://www.mini-lathe.com/Mini_mill/Main/mini-mill.htm

 

https://www.littlemachineshop.com/Products/product_new.php (goto the "Learning Center" link at the top.

 

There's probably more out there so check the Proxxon site and see what they have.

[glbarlow]

Angles are easy enough to do with creative jigs, the MF 70 is a great choice, there is so much you’ll learn to do with it there in your workshop. Be sure to get the Precision Machine Vise and Dividing Attachment. 

[DelF]

Glad to see you gave into temptation Tim! You won't regret your choice.

 

I second Glenn's comments about jigs. Half the art of milling is about finding the best ways to hold work down securely and in the best position to work on it. If you enjoy problem solving that's half the battle, but you'll also find lots of examples of jigs on the forum. As a starter, have a look at Marsalv's Royal Caroline build. In his current model he uses CNC machinery, but on Caroline you'll see what he was able to achieve with the standard MF70.

 

I also agree with Glenn on the Proxxon vice (PM40) and dividing head (#24 264).

 

Enjoy!

 

Derek