How much was actually painted?

[Dave_E]

Hi All,

 

Building and painting model wooden ships is done in variety of ways… absolutely authentic (weathered or brand new) to “I like the all wood look” and everything in between. I painted all the deck furniture on my Lady Nelson red occre because that was the kit plan… no other reason. I’m looking ahead at my Rattlesnake and have a notion to leave all the deck furniture natural wood. My question is does anybody have an idea what the norm was for the late 1700’s, US built warships? Did they paint the grates or the capstan, ladders etc.?

[druxey]

Any wear surface such as decking or stair treads were not painted.

[GrandpaPhil]

Paint protects against corrosion and weathering of material, whether wood or metal.

 

This is especially valuable because salt spray destroys absolutely EVERYTHING.

 

Paint is also one of the cheaper protective coatings.  I do not know for sure, but I would imagine that as much as would be reasonably coated, would have been.

 

In my time either on a ship or a workboat (I spent time as a sailor a long time ago), everything that could be painted, was painted.

 

Everything that couldn’t be painted was otherwise regularly cleaned and lubed.

 

Corrosion control is a big part of shipboard life.

[Dave_E]

Hey Phil, I was in Naval Aviation for a spell aboard ship, I totally get the corrosion of “metal” stuff. Not sure how much paint got wood was always on hand. Of course I have no idea. 😆

[glbarlow]

Look at photos of HMS Victory, lots of paint, not much unpainted. All stains and natural wood are modelers choice, but not likely accurate. Personally I’m not a fan of wood stains on a ship model, but that’s just me. I do like natural wood with a WOP finish matched up with other painted parts. Do what makes you happy. 

Edited November 20, 2022 by glbarlow

[Bob Cleek]

3 hours ago, GrandpaPhil said:

In my time either on a ship or a workboat (I spent time as a sailor a long time ago), everything that could be painted, was painted.

 

Everything that couldn’t be painted was otherwise regularly cleaned and lubed.

Standing order of the day: "If it moves, lube it. If it doesn't move, paint it!"  

[Dr PR]

Paint had another function in addition to protection. It gave the crew something to do, keeping them busy. "Idle hands are the Devil's workshop."

 

When a very junior officer I asked my Department Head why we didn't use epoxy paints on the exterior of the ship (we used them in magazines and they held up for many years). He enlightened me about the benefits of having the crew constantly chipping, applying primer, and then the final paint. I think that grey paint must have been water soluble because it never lasted long before rust started to show again. And we were a flagship that frequently visited foreign ports, so rust was not allowed to show. When the crew weren't painting they were holystoning the decks! It was mostly "busy work."

[davyboy]

Not ship related. Many years ago when I was in the RAF princess Margaret was to visit our base. All patches of worn or discoloured grass were sprayed green. It was also published in Station Routine Orders that the wives in Married Quarters were not to hang out their washing to dry on the day of her visit.

Says it all really.

 

Dave 

[knightyo]

I'll bet I'm not alone in my modeling process.  If I build something and the joints look magnificent, I'll leave it as natural wood.  If what I've built needs filler or is sub-par, it gets painted in order to hide my sins. 😊

 

Alan

[clarkt]

Phoenician ships were known to be, at least partially, black.  They had the great good fortune to have access to natural (petroleum ) tar, still a good sealant, if you have nothing else.  I think paint in the early days of sailing was used solely to change color and add decoration.  At some point, as quality improved, they realized that it could also seal the wood against the deteroriating effects of the weather and seawater.  It would be natural for captains to protect whatever they could, that way, and I imagine that some went pretty far with the technique.  The idea of painting anything not moving, I believe, came along with the all steel ships. 

[jud]

Expect lots of thinned linseed oil and diluted pine tar was used more often than paint on weather deck spaces and furniture. Thinned or diluted for penetration, wood being porous, some areas might have had pigment added to the mix. Get water under painted wood and the paint lifts off, so use proper oils often to protected from water, especially if subject to repeatable dry then wet cycles.

 

[CPDDET]

To paint or not to paint. That is the question, at least for me. I struggle with deciding which way to go. I love the look of wood but paint is needed if one wants realism. 

But it is my model and i should follow the path that leads to a finished product I enjoy viewing. So I imagine my next model will be wood. Using different species to add depth and interest.

 

 

[Srodbro]

Regarding Post #10 & #11:

Might early black “ tar” have been used on hulls primarily to deter deterioration by those nasty salt water worms that eat wood?

[jud]

Most models are depictions of Government ships with Captain's, if finically able and for status and promotional reasons used everything they could to gain attention when it came to the appearance of the ship, I suspect prize money finance a lot of that. The Commercial Owner and Skipper were interested in profit and keeping operating costs down, that goal had a lot of impact on appearance unless engaged in a competave trade such as wool and tea, Guano, general cargo and the age of the ship would limit the value of appearance when you could Shanghai a crew.

 

Edited November 22, 2022 by jud

[Bob Cleek]

3 hours ago, Srodbro said:

Regarding Post #10 & #11:

Might early black “ tar” have been used on hulls primarily to deter deterioration by those nasty salt water worms that eat wood?

Actually, no. Pine tar was used on wood to protect it from the weathering effects of water and sunlight. In earlier times before copper sheathing came into vogue (~1750), tallow and matted hair was applied below the waterline to prevent damage from marine borers, which it never did do very well.

[Dave_E]

So... after all the great comments... if I wanted to be more authentic than not in my building of the Rattler... the "tallow" paint would be more correct than mat white for the hull? Below are some paint comparisons. The yellow ochre was just between brands. 

[jud]

The Rattlesnake was built as a privateer intended to appear as an English Frigate, so she would have been painted to mimic the English Frigates of the day. She was captured after a short busy career and would have been kept in pristine condition while in American hands to fit that roll, her record indicates that it worked. So look to the British Frigates of the time for your painting scheme.

 

[acaron41120]

Not sure about paints v stains on our ship models but I have heard that paint used on the actual ships was a flat (non gloss) color as gloss paint didn’t come out until the 1900s.

[Roger Pellett]

Industrial paints, the kind used to paint commercial vessels and workboats, might have a slight sheen but not high gloss.  Their job is to prevent corrosion.  Companies might specify certain colors, but that is secondary.  Here on the Great Lakes , hull colors historically have reflected the trades that the ships sailed in- iron ore, dull red, coal, black, limestone and cement, grey.  

 

Roger

[acaron41120]

Good to know. Thanks Roger.

 

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

On 11/24/2022 at 4:39 PM, acaron41120 said:

Not sure about paints v stains on our ship models but I have heard that paint used on the actual ships was a flat (non gloss) color as gloss paint didn’t come out until the 1900s.

  So if all one has are 'gloss' paints, adding a little talcum powder will 'matte down' the finish.  Now 'boiled' linseed oil was the principal medium (carrier) for colorants (pigments) in the 19th century - as well as artists oil paints, that were just a lot thicker to put in lead tubes.  These paints can still have a 'sheen' of sorts when painted on a flat surface, due to the polymerization of the linseed oil.  Note that RAW linseed oil takes forever to dry ... and never really dries 'completely'.  So 'boiled' linseed oil refers to the addition (cooked in) of a metal salt that acts as a 'dryer'.  That is, the added compound acts as a catalyst to hasten the oil into forming polymer chains with 'cross linking'.

 

  The most common additive was lead acetate - so called 'sugars of lead', due to the sweetness registered if tasted.  Lead acetate was the first 'artificial sweetener' used in ancient Rome - a byproduct from boiling vinegar in lead pots (another story).  Lead pipe plumbing quickly develops a lead oxide inner layer that gets mineralized in place - which prevents lead leaching.  So old lead supply pipes in the U.S. don't present much danger if left undisturbed - yet complete replacement has been the safest policy.  Thus the their of lead poisoning in ancient Rome was not likely to have been from the pipes, but rather from the artificial a=sweetener that only the well-to-do could afford. 

 

  Anyway, lead acetate has a reddish orange color, which makes linseed oil so treated have an 'amber; color that you can find in very old paint sets now and then at a yard sale, etc.  Modern boiled linseed oil has a manganese-based dryer.  There was also a dryer developed in the 1800s called 'Japan Dryer' - one small tin will last a lifetime since only a few drops added to any old oil-based paint or varnish will 'restore' the ability to dry.

 

  I've digressed (as usual), but one can have a semi-gloss finish (with wood grain still showing) and still be 'in period',

Edited December 12, 2022 by Snug Harbor Johnny
typos

[CDR_Ret]

On 11/19/2022 at 6:01 PM, druxey said:

(From post #2): Any wear surface such as decking or stair treads were not painted.

@druxey, would this statement have been true for all eras and applications? I understand that sailing warships had holystoned decks, but sailing merchants, particularly in the latter days of sail, had relatively small crews, which would have made routine deck maintenance difficult.

 

I have some really good photos of the Galilee (1891 brigantine, crew of 11) taken in the early 1900s, and her deck definitely looks painted to me.

Photo of a shark caught by the ship's crew of Galilee during her DTM Cruise II in the Pacific Ocean. (Courtesy Carnegie Science Library, c. 1906. All rights reserved.)

 

Terry

[SkiBee]

I was on a wooden mine sweeper in 1970 for a short while, all I remember was polishing brass (not painted), checking the bilge and chipping paint on everything else.  Everything was painted but the deck, it was raw but well-aged wood.

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

  I'm fascinated by the low-angle shot of the deck of the Galilee, in that there is clearly a slight depression along the caulking seams - with the plank edges along side of the caulking in the groove slightly rounded from wear - and sharp edges of wood would have been avoided (danger of splinters) when installing, so I imagine a square stone was passed over mating planks a couple times to "break" two corners at once.

 

  Now about that 'low angle' ... Light has a high percentage of reflectivity at low angles to a plane (wet or dry, but even more so wet), and with a freshly caught shark flopped down ahead of the camera I take the deck to be somewhat sold from 15 years of use as well as recently moistened.

[Jim Lad]

Hopefully of some use to the discussion.  A photograph taken on an unknown whaler of the 1850's.  The inside of the bulwarks are clealy painted, while the deck is not.

 

John

 

[Roger Pellett]

Bare wood was probably the low maintenance choice.  The old finishes, both paint and varnishes, did not stand up to direct sunlight, and would require constant maintenance.  

 

Roger

[CDR_Ret]

These are all good points to consider. The tarp in the DTM photo was put up when the weather was foul. To my untrained eye, though, the deck just doesn't look wet as much as having a gloss coat of paint. The finish is very uniform.

 

2 hours ago, Jim Lad said:

The inside of the bulwarks are clearly painted, while the deck is not.

Galilee's waterways and open bulwarks were definitely painted. One thing to remember is that during her charter period, she was classified as a yacht to avoid port fees, and DTM tried to gain public interest in the geomagnetic project by inviting the local populace onboard whenever ship was in port. So it might have been an exception to the rule regarding the finish of the decks.

 

Galilee's weather deck in fair weather. I've treated the deck color the same as the coamings and waterways. (Courtesy Carnegie Science Library, c. 1906. All rights reserved.)

 

As for lower maintenance, it might have been considered less maintenance to repaint the deck occasionally rather than replace or at least recaulk weathered planks.

 

I apologize for hijacking the thread...

 

I'll go back into my hole.

 

P.S. In Crothers' The American Built Clipper Ship, p. 346, he states under "Deck and Deck Structures," in part, "...No paint was applied to deck surfaces. The raw wood was kept clean by constant scrubbing and mopping... Preservation was achieved by an occasional application of oil to repel water." So that may be the source of the sheen in photographs.

 

Terry

Edited January 5, 2023 by CDR_Ret
Adding a postscript

[el cid]

Bare wood decks, specifically teak, also offer decent traction. Painted decks (absent non-skid grit) can be pretty slippery when wet.

[javajohn]

The historians out there maybe can comment on this article and tell us if it is accurate: Painting Napoleonic ships (larsonweb.com)

 

Based on that, I think the hull might have been yellow ochre with black wales, or even black. but it sounds like it was really up to the captain's preference.

 

John