HMS Montague 1779 bygaryshipwright - 74-gun Alfred-class

[Jeronimo]

Hi Gary,

very nice detail work.

Karl

[Rustyj]

Hi Gary, Every time I stop in to see your work it just takes my breath away.

Simply wonderful. I hope your Christmas was a great one.

Edited December 26, 2013 by Rustyj

[dvm27]

Looks wonderful, Gary. Look forward to your 2014 updates. Happy Holidays!

 

Greg

[garyshipwright]

Thanks every one.Your like's and comments mean a lot to me. Well guy's back to work. Gary

[Sailor1234567890]

Looking good. I love those 74s.

[aliluke]

Hi Gary

I saw you popping up on my Fly log so had a look at your work. Amazing!!! You are in a whole different sport than me that is for sure. Alfred is incredible and I hadn't seen this log before (I tend to shy away from the scratch build logs as they intimidate me).

 

With that I come up with some questions if you'd indulge:

- Would a ship such as the Fly have a messenger cable? The capstan is well aft and I have never been able to figure how the ropes from it connected to the anchor cables. I haven't seen a Swan model with this element added. I'm equally perplexed by what ropes would connect to the upper capstan and where they would actually go.

- The joint in the messenger cable is very bulky. If this is run around the capstan as a part of a continuous loop does it cause problems with binding and tangling?

- Does the messenger cable also have a forward roller?

- Your cannons and their rig look superb. I understand why the tackle ropes are frapped but would they be so when the gun is run out? I thought frapping was only done when the gun was stowed. I understand your reasoning for showing them so but I'm curious as to whether the two - frapped and run out can go together?

 

Sorry, a lot to ask on my first visit to your wonderful log but your photos tempt these questions that I have already puzzled about.

 

Cheers

Alistair

[garyshipwright]

Thanks Guys. 

 

  Aliluke I see if I can answer your question. I went through vol 4 of David's book Rigging a sixth rate Sloop and he doesn't mention messenger cable, only the anchor cable, which had a circumf of 13 inches  and a diameter of 4inches. Also went through some of the other books such as Eighteenth century rigs by Marquardt , Lee and Steel and none of them seems to give any information on a sloop of 16 guns carrying a messenger. Now could she have carried one maybe, but I don't think so. According to Lavery, Arming and Fitting, page 47,  in 1790,only sloops of 200 tons or less and smaller vessels, had no messenger or Viol. The Viol went out of style several years early. To me since they don't have any thing mention in the Steel list, they might of used one of the other smaller spare cables as a messenger using it in the same way that Brian Lavery show's on page 49, but just didn't call it a messenger.

 

  As far as the roller David doesn't mention one, so I would have to go with him on that one and he doesn't show it when he was fitting out the manger with the other items. They do have a lower capstan Aliluke on the lower deck and the upper and lower one was connected together. The crew would turn the upper one which would turn the lower one which has the cable going around it, which hailed up the anchor cable.  They did use the upper one sometimes when they were hailing up the yards, upper mast and other heavy work, on the upper deck.  

 

  Has far as the joint, mine may look a little bulke but I don't think it caused them to much of a problem, and hopfully once I finally get this detail done it should be more of a resonable size. From researching this it shows a sailor with what looks like a pry bar,  to help keep the cable from riding up on the capstain keeping things from binding and getting tangled up.There is a very good picture of this also in Lavery's book on page 49. 

 

  As far as the cannons and frapping the tackle ropes, I do believe that they could of been fraped when ran out, but don't hold me to that. Am still debating on this item but hopfully when I finally get them installed, they should be some what right.  I guess I just like the look of them being fraped verse's just coiled on the deck. Hope I answer all of your question Alistair and you can ask all the question you want and will be more then happy to answer them. 

 

  Gary

[aliluke]

Thank you for your very thoughtful answers Gary.

I was thinking about laying the anchor cable along the deck and running it through stoppers? then around the capstan but I guess if the anchors are stowed then the cables would be stowed as well. That sounds like a safer visual option for me and won't leave me tangled in ropes that I don't quite understand.

 

I will probably do deck coils for the gun tackles - it actually looks easier than frapping and I've done them before with success.

 

Cheers and I look forward to your updates,

Alistair

[garyshipwright]

Hi Alistair. Your very welcome sir. At the moment am still probably go with the frapping and some gun's in different placement like being tied up  but that is hopfully in the near future.

 

Have a small update guys. The planking of the gun deck is finish  and should not be adding any more at the moment. The Captain did come around and talked about overhauling the pumps and bearings and a few other things. The old bushing set was wooden,  and figure I would try to make some metal ones. Figure that if I don't work more with metal, won't ever get any better at it. Do believe I finally figure out and got myself some good drill bits, for drilling very tiny holes in metal. With the sensitive drilling attachment  it helps me big time, from breaking a ton of the small bits. Any way I milled out the shape of the roding's, believe thats what they are called and drilled the holes for the bolts to keep them in place.

 

  The pump housing tubes and main mast partner was taken out and given a new look and then reinstalled , the partner and pump tubes that is. Also added the aft scuttle hatches with the cover some what just sitting on the bottom half. Now I did come across a item and thought it would be nice to add. On Montagu and other 74 gun ships they had this half circle cover, which I believe was made of wood, had one small door in front, just big enough to hand out cartridges,  and covered the scuttle hatch that was used to hand up the cartridges from the orlop deck. This hatch was between the aft riding bitt's.  It probably was stored when they were working the anchors and cables. Another up date in the works folk's.

 

Just something to think about  folks,the next time you have to glue something in place. If you can just peg the item to the hull or deck with maybe a bit of glue on the peg, it just might save you from having a headack on your hands. Just to give you a ideal of this, all of Montagu gun deck planks are only held in place with a tiny bit of glue on the pegs. If I had to tear out or remove some planking all one has to do is pry up the plank sand down the peg's and your ready to go. When I first installed the main partner and pump's very little glue was used and things were more or less just pegged in place. Made removing them a whole lot easier and clean up was a snap. Just something to keep in mind folks. 

Gary 

 

Edited February 21, 2015 by garyshipwright

[aliluke]

Great work Gary. I particularly like the contrast between the white, holly?, decking and the darker frames. Your rhodings on the pumps are great. Being power toolless makes making such things a task for me. Beautiful work - I'll keep following and learning.

 

Cheers

Alistair

[Remcohe]

Congrats on finishing the deck. It looks great and a very wise advise too, don't make the joint stronger than necessary  you never know when it is time to redo something. This the reason why I stay away from using CA to glue wood, I know many do because it's fast and easy, but when the time comes to take the plank out, you are in trouble...

Also a very neat way to make the rodings, that sensitive drilling attachment is on my wish list....

 

Remco

[j21896]

Hi Gary,

 

She looks absolutely beautiful!  I wonder, could you divulge your source for the drill bits that you used for the metal work?

 

Thanks,

Robert

[Blue Ensign]

Nice progress Gary, the deck option looks good, and I love the pump photos, a great little diorama on their own.

 

If I may comment on the frapping of gun tackles, it is less likely that the  gun deck heavy guns would be run out and frapped, as the ports would be usually closed unless the guns were being prepared for action, where faking down of the side tackles would probably be the practical arrangement.

 

But whose to say that in a harbour situation with the ports open to allow airing, the guns wouldn't sometimes be secured by frapping.

 

The situation would be different with the lighter guns in open non lidded ports

 

John Harland in his book Seamanship in the age of Sail  includes a chapter on securing the guns. He makes the point that the Upper deck guns were ordinarily secured in the ‘run out’ position and shows the side tackles frapped.

 

This is the arrangement I adopted on my Pegasus build.

 

 

B.E.

 

[druxey]

'Well' done on the pump rhodings, Gary!

[garyshipwright]

Thanks Guys. 

 

As far as being powerless Alistair, when I started out, believe that a dremel tool is all I had. I did make a thickness sander out of a table top belt sander. Took the shaft out and had the machine shop thread one end for a drill chuck, to it to hold sleeve's for round sand paper. It does seem that if I had not seen a article about punching holes in a B17 with one, I probably would be with out one. I did add a drill press for the dremel which was really my first mill. Used it for years. One tool that will make life easier in our hobby Alistair is a small table saw. Guess I could go on and on in the tool's but they do make model building a lot more interesting. 

 

Hi Remco. As far as super glue goes sir, I do use it but most of the time just to hold metal in place untill I can drill holes for the peg's. Seems that it just no fun when a part comes apart just when you don't want it to. As far as the sensitive drilling attachment, have to thank EdT for that one. I give him a hug if I could. If he had not been using one in his Naiad built, never would have thought about it. It has allways been a problem for me of breaking very small drill bits in metal. Most of the time using the column doesn't give one any feel for how much pressure one is putting on the bit, and for me as always been a pain in the wallet due to breaking drill bit's. I am finding that I break a lot less but I do still break them. Will be a very good addition Remco to you milling.

 

Hi Robert. The drill bit in the photo comes from http://www.contenti.com/index.html I purchased 6 bits from them with the 3/32 shanks in the  0.5mm and the 0.8mm size. What makes them nice is that they have just a little flex when starting the hole unlike the carbide bits. Cost a little bit but saves money if you don't have to buy as many. I also went and purchase some solid carbide bits, .018 also with the 3/32 shank, 50 of them, just in case I broke one or two. Cost about 20 dollars. These came from Drill Bits Unlimited.com   Much nicer buying what you need instead of the kit with all the different bits. They do seem to break easy  but are used mainly in the mill, help's me from breaking a lot. You probably already know about getting bits from Micro Mark and Model Expo. Those I get for general dilling in a dremel tool for holes in wood. They have a good price for the amount you get and don't have to many break. The sizes I get usually come's in the 62 and 63 size. About 10 per tube. Most of this you probably already know Robert so just forgive me on that. 

 

  Thanks B.E.You can comment on any thing you want sir and the information is always helpfull. Have to agree with you about the lower ports being closed most of the time out to sea unless of course they was going in to a fight. Being the lower ports was only about 4 feet or so above the water, would not of taken to big of a wave to cause a big headack. I will have to take a look at John Harland's book, just in it the other day looking for information on messenger's size. 

 

 Thanks druxey. Figure it was time sir to really work on my metal  making and after seeing  Archjofo in his La Creole build. was taken over by how great his metal work really look's. Guess he is to blame for the push to go deeper in to metal work on Alfred and for this I thank him. 

 

 

 Thanks every one.

  Gary

Edited December 30, 2013 by garyshipwright

[JesseLee]

This is an amazing build! I am jealous of your talent!

[garyshipwright]

Thanks Jesse, but you have no reason to be jealous sir, its more of a love of building them and making all the parts and less on the talent side.  Gary

[SJSoane]

 

Hi Gary,

 

I just caught up with your postings. It is looking terrific! I always wondered what that quarter circle between the riding bitts represented in the sheer plan. Mine has no detail, and so I just ignored it. I may try building one like yours, for the Bellona. Where did you find details?

 

I am also inspired by your rhodings. Did you mill them out of a single piece of metal before drilling? Very clever.

 

I also see your upper deck transom more clearly. I have been working through the geometry of the Bellona's stern, and I noticed that this transom would run smack into the rudder head. I was thinking that it would have to be cut, which would make no structural sense. Your bending it forward around the rudder makes perfect sense. I could find no drawings or photos of this looking aft or in plan, so I was shooting in the dark. Steel's 80 gun ship drawings show the transom further aft, and able to clear the rudder. But the Bellona's lower counter is too close to the rudder for this to work. Very complex, these sterns.

 

You continue to inspire and educate me!

 

Best wishes,

 

Mark

[archjofo]

Hello Gary,

 

I wish you a happy New Year!

 

Beautiful and outstanding work as has been said already, it is wonderful to follow your progress.
 

[Jim Lad]

Just catching up, Gary.  Beautiful work on the pump rhodings!

 

John

[Trussben]

As always Gary, your work and attention to detail is great. I will remember the tip about the sensitive drill attachment.

 

Ben

[garyshipwright]

Hi Mark,Happy New Year and thank you .

 

  Your build isn't to bad either sir and looked in a little earlier and must say she look's outstanding. Well I didn't think much about the half circle, :mellow: much like your self, not much detail, and did look for info on it but nothing turn up.  The only thing I know for sure was that it sat on top of the scuttle hole that was used to hand up cartridges for the guns. The other day I was adding the scuttle hatch's and went back to trying to figure out what the half circle was. Funny thing is that on Alfred's plan it's just a half circle also, but at that moment  I  was looking at Montague and saw this little square door on the front of the half circle. Bingo it hit me  and with that clue I finally had a plan of this little item,  that and asking druexy what he thought. To me it is a wooden cover that is installed over top of the hatch with a little door in front for handing out cartridges, that could be removed and stowed when they wasn't shooting at each other. Sort of a safety item to keep things out and impending the handing out cartridges.  I just used the size o the hatch it self Mark along with the height of the circle and made the little box with a little hatch in front , just big enough to hand cartridges out. Funny how you can look at the same item a hundred times and on the hundred and first you see some thing new.   

 

 I marked out the rhodings size on some brass plate and drill the hole first for the bearing, milled out their shape and then cut out the height on the little Preac saw. After that measured the bolt holes and drilled them as you can see in the photo's. Was interesting, being am still learning how to make metal part's. Seems that I have been working on that black art for a long time.

 

  As for the deck transom, that was a bit of luck with the help Alex M and his plans. It helped me to figure out how this item was really made. I tried to add this transom but by the time I got it to fit and the middle cut to fit around the rudder there wasn't any strength left to the transom. After seeing how he had made his transom drawing, went looking in the plan's I have and came across a couple that show's how they made this part, so I redid the part and now I had a good strong transom for the upper gun deck.   Also looked to see if this has a rabbet on the front edge for the planking and have not come across one. 

 

Hi Johann and happy New year to you to. Thank you sir, and am finding that by following your log that it is really teaching me a lot. Seems that your metal work is wearing off on me, and maybe one day mine might be half as good as your's. 

 

Thanks John and Happy New Year. Well good sir its all Johann fault.  Seems that I have gone just a little metal crazy from seeing his work, either that, or I have chips on the brain. 

 

Thanks Ben. Problem with the detail sir is that yesterday detail  was great the last time you looked at it ,but  today you ripped it out just because its missing a bolt.   Believe me it will really up your game at making small holes in really small things. 

 

Gary

Edited January 2, 2014 by garyshipwright

[AON]

Absolutely awesome !

Alan

[garyshipwright]

Hi Alan and thank you very much.

 

Gary

[archjofo]

Hello Gary,

it is wonderful to follow your progress.

An excellent performance.

[garyshipwright]

Hi Johann and thank you sir. I feel the same way about following your build. Your metal work as inspired me to do better with my own. Right now am working on the cast iron brodie stove and looking at what I have done at the moment doesn't look to bad. Hopfully I will have a update on it in a couple of days.

 

Gary

[michael mott]

The work is looking great Gary, your reference to the term "rhodings" made me curious I cannot find an explanation for the term an internet serch produced little info ?

 

I can see that they are bearings but where does the term "rhodings come from?

 

Michael

[garyshipwright]

Hi Michael. Thank you sir. As far as the term rhodings it appeares in Steel, Naval Architecture and in David's book Vol 2 page 95, TFFM. As far as were the term comes from, your guess is as good as mine sir. Gary

[druxey]

Michael: the OED cites 'rhoding' from naval architecture books, 1850,(which is very late) but, alas, gives no origin as to its meaning.

[garyshipwright]

Well guys, I got to finally do some cooking and if any one has a pig, bring it on over and we can have a roast. Only kidding but finally have Alfred stove just about finished. Been working on it for a couple of days and has been a lot of fun. Its built of copper and brass, and a few pieces of plastic and wood thrown in to the mix. Still have to put the  bar around it and finish the stack. A couple of the items, probably will get replace, such as the pot holder's and in the mean time will have to make some pot's and pans. Don't be to hard guys and still need a lot of work on it.   Also have to figure out how am going to get that cast iron look so if any of you have any ideal's on how to do this, let me know, would you please. Just to let you know there was a few items that came from Chuck's photo etch set which came in real handy, so thank you Chuck. Enjoy the photo's guy's.

 

Gary 

Edited January 9, 2014 by garyshipwright