A new angle in precision sanding

[Arcticbeaver]

Found this on a model railroad site.

https://ultimation.ca/

 

 

[Gregory]

The pictures are kind of vague..

 

Where's the motor?

 

 

P.S.

 

O.K.   I googled it and see there is a hand crank..  Interesting.

That would really limit it's usefulness in my opinion.

That would be some good information to provide on the web site.

Edited July 13, 2019 by Gregory

[BANYAN]

Can't beat the Jim Byrnes disc sander for accuracy IMHO.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[Gregory]

The operator has a lot to do with that..   

[Moab]

I agree... the web site is bad. At first I thought this "hand cranked" sander was not for me. But when I thought about the types of sanding I do I began to think I could use this product. My "shop" is 6' x 12' and doubles as our office. With my current electric sander dust collection is a problem. Also some of my sanding needs are minor angle changes or touch ups so a hand cranked sander would work well. I also like the way angles can be adjusted. One downside (I think) is the inability to make compound angle cuts because the table isn't adjustable. ( I need to recheck the web site to check out the deck.)...Moab

[Bob Cleek]

$225 is a fair bit of change for a hand-cranked sander (apparently) without an accurate tilting table for compound angles and only a rubber disk pad. For another $100, you get a 1/3 hp motor and a highly accurate miter gauge and tilting table with preset angles and variable angle setting and with a thick (1/2" IIRC) disk plate that stores a lot of momentum, so no lagging when the piece connects with the disk. The Byrnes sander has a larger table of CNC machined aluminum. The Byrnes sander also has a very effective dust collection system that hooks up to any shop-vac. Then, too, the Byrnes sander has solid resale value and a manufacturer that stands behind it with a long track record of superior customer satisfaction.  Just sayin'. 

  http://www.byrnesmodelmachines.com/discsander5.html

 

Edited July 16, 2019 by Bob Cleek

[Gregory]

I think I would spend $87 on one of these:

 

Harbor Freight

 

Before I would spend $225 on the " Ultimation " sander..

[grsjax]

1 hour ago, Gregory said:

I think I would spend $87 on one of these:

 

Harbor Freight

 

Before I would spend $225 on the " Ultimation " sander..

Agreed.  I have one and it is a work horse.

[thibaultron]

Been using the Dremel version of grsjax's sander for decades, it is indeed a workhorse.

 

I wrote a log on improving the disk table a while back Modifications to a Dremel Belt/Disk Sander

 

You'll have to do a search, I don't know how to paste a link to it.

[Gregory]

This one looks to have about the smallest footprint I have seen.

It appears to be well made.

 

Allwin Benchtop Mini Disk/Belt Sander

[reklein]

I have the Allwin I got from Micro-Mark and it works fine. I think the have a precision hand sander too by NorthWest Shortline that works good too.

 

[grsjax]

All of the small belt/disk sander models are much the same.  Provided with good quality belts and disks they all will do the job.

For a really small sander take a look at these;

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Micro-Mini-Electric-Belt-Sander-DIY-Polishing-Grinding-Machine-Fixed-Angle-D8X0/192920703022?hash=item2ceaf8502e:g:JsAAAOSwY2Rc2wZwhttps://www.ebay.com/itm/Micro-Mini-Electric-Belt-Sander-DIY-Polishing-Grinding-Machine-Fixed-Angle-D8X0/192920703022?hash=item2ceaf8502e:g:JsAAAOSwY2Rc2wZw

[kurtvd19]

I have the Dremel disc/belt combo - kicks up a dust storm - relegated to the wood shop where the dust doesn't matter. 

Got the Byrnes disc sander - it captures 99.9% of the dust, and is a world apart from the Dremel unit.  I was impressed that the Byrnes unit keeps spinning for darn near a full minute after killing the power - that's a matter of mass and great balance.  The disc runs true with no movement along the axis - the Dremel quits spinning in about 3 seconds and there is very noticeable movement along the axis. 

The Dremel disc will never be used on a model again - the belt is OK for non-model use but when the last belt I have is worn out the garbage guy can have the unit.

All that said I personally think it's a better unit than the one that started this thread.

Kurt

[Bob Cleek]

2 hours ago, kurtvd19 said:

I have the Dremel disc/belt combo - kicks up a dust storm - relegated to the wood shop where the dust doesn't matter. 

Got the Byrnes disc sander - it captures 99.9% of the dust, and is a world apart from the Dremel unit.  I was impressed that the Byrnes unit keeps spinning for darn near a full minute after killing the power - that's a matter of mass and great balance.  The disc runs true with no movement along the axis - the Dremel quits spinning in about 3 seconds and there is very noticeable movement along the axis. 

The Dremel disc will never be used on a model again - the belt is OK for non-model use but when the last belt I have is worn out the garbage guy can have the unit.

All that said I personally think it's a better unit than the one that started this thread.

Kurt

I have to agree with Kurt. I've broke my own tool-buying rule more often that I'd like to admit: "Never buy a tool until you actually need it and then buy the best quality tool you can possibly afford." Like Kurt and probably most serious modelers, I have a "collection" of small power tools that I bought before I knew better, or when I was trying to save money, and which turned out to be a waste of money rather than a savings. A lot of them are still made and sold by companies that offer them for modeling use. Some, such as the Chinese-built knock-off sanders mentioned above, are "adequate" for those who haven't had the opportunity to know the difference. Quality tools do cost more, but when one considers how long they will last, the value of the work they can do, the pleasure to be had in using them, and even the resale value if one loses interest and wants to unload them, they are a wise investment and a bargain, considering their intrinsic value. 

 

I've highlighted the differences Kurt notes in his post above. I'd opt for any of the three power tools Byrnes makes, the table saw, disk sander, and thickness sander, over any other for the fact alone that they are virtually "dust free" when hooked up to a shop vac. You could use them in your living room and never have to think about dust.  There's more to it than that, though. For the purpose of scale modeling, accuracy is everything. Fine tools cost more because they are manufactured to operate at close tolerances.... in the case of Jim Byrnes' machines, tolerances of a thousandth of an inch and even half that, consistently and dependably. They have considerable mass because weight equals accuracy. For that reason, their working surfaces and adjusting mechanisms are made of CNC-machined solid aluminum plate, not stamped sheet metal and plastic or pot metal castings. Their fit and finish is impeccable, like a fine scientific instrument. They have expensive bearings because those also ensure accuracy. They have expensive motors because horsepower again means accuracy. If you examine the lower-priced products, you will note that their miter gauges and fences are often plastic, which wears and soon becomes useless for producing highly accurate work, The indexing on the low-priced tools is stamped or cast into the plastic parts, rather than machined or photo-etched into metal parts. There is no way a plastic setting knob is ever going to be capable of dependably holding a position to a fine tolerance. 

 

Plenty of ship models have been built with a razor blade and a tack hammer, but if you are going to spend money on tools, cheap ones are the most expensive ones in the end.

 

 

Edited July 16, 2019 by Bob Cleek

[Gregory]

I think we got spammed..   

[mtaylor]

I'm not sure, Gregory.  If it was he was long term sleeper.   

[Gregory]

Just speculation based on a one time post and no further contribution to the discussion.

 

I could be wrong..  Happens all the time..   I'm the suspicious type.

[mtaylor]

I'm that way also, Gregory.   It still could be though.  I"ve looked at the product and scratched my head.  Not a product I'd use.

[Arcticbeaver]

No you have not been spammed. i just thought that depending on the scale of your project that the hand control would be more useful. At 1/72 a powered sander could remove more than you need just with a touch. A hand crank that stops and starts immediately would also be a benefit. Not for everybody judging from the comments.

[Nirvana]

I have a belt/disc sander combo as in picture but a no-name brand.

It's doing a good job when no-precision sanding is required, but is very noisy in comparison to Byrnes disc sander.
I am some 100 dollars away from buying a Byrnes sander. Have the thickness sander of his and am very happy.

And it's very quiet too. Have an old Proxxon "workhorse" table saw that works real well, so the disc sander is more in consideration than Byrnes table saw.

 

[wefalck]

Spending 200+ USD seems to be a bit over the top. Hand-cranking seems to be attractive because of the speed control, but co-ordinating the two movements is not easy. I solved the problem through a speed-control and a foot-switch. You can put an ordinary plug-type dimmer (with the apropriate rating) between the disc-sander and the wall-socket and you got your speed-control.

 

I built myself a micro disc-sander around the headstock of a watchmakers lathe: https://www.maritima-et-mechanika.org/tools/microgrinder/microgrinder.html

 

And I also made this little hand-sander: https://www.maritima-et-mechanika.org/tools/handsander/handsander.html

 

Dust is not really a problem, considering the small quantities of material taken off.

[wefalck]

Well, I have been collecting these for about 30 years now ...

 

The sanding discs are of various diameters, ranging from 40 to 70 mm. I have flat disc onto which wet-and-dry paper of various grades is stuck and diamond discs of various grades. I quite like the diamond discs, but they are not easy to get to run flat, though I have good arbors. They are quite cheap, so perhaps I should sacrifice one side and stick them to a flat running thick wood or metal disc.

 

It would be quite simple to build yourself a disc sander with the various components that are now available cheaply from ebay.

 

For really delicate work, I find that most commercial machines run too fast. Some times you need to take off just a few 1/100 mm in order to fit a piece. I am running the 40 mm diamond discs at around 100 rpm only.

 

Work holding is the major challenge, if you have really small parts. So I made various kind of clamps with defined edges/surfaces that can be guided by the fences.

[tom q vaxy]

i'm considering this package:   Ultimate Precision Tools Package: Sander, Repeater & Slicer by Ultimation Modeling Tools

 

i mostly build with styrene and i believe anything powered will turn the styrene to, uh, melted styrene.

 

with the chopping tool, i see the sanders as a necessary evil. compound angles would not be the norm, and anything which would require could be jigged.

 

as David Pye mentioned in his book The Nature of Art and Workmanship,* there's the workmanship of risk, and the workmanship of certainty.

 

* The Nature and Art of Workmanship: Pye, David, Shales, Ezra: 9780713689310: Amazon.com: Books

[wefalck]

Wow, this is quite a price tag for those two tools, even though they look sturdy and well-engineered.

 

If something melts or burns during machining, that means you are putting too much energy in a too short time-span into it. Reducing the energy helps. If you have a 220V/110V sander, you can reduce its rpms (and hence the energy put into the process) by running it off a dimmer, if doesn't have already a speed control.

 

I also found that diamond tools work better on plastics (acrylic glass, polystyrene, etc.) than carborundum abrasives, so I am using diamond grinding discs on my micro-sander.

Edited November 20, 2023 by wefalck

[jerome]

Years ago I bought one of these Logan picture frame sanders.

I love it.

virtually dust free.

never melts plastic.

 

[Nirvana]

Hefty price tag!

My Byrnes machine does a fantastic job and is "Made in U.S.A"

[wefalck]

Edges round in which direction?

 

[kgstakes]

The Ultimation products are great.  I have the Slicer and the Sander (course they're Christmas gifts) but I do have them just not in my workshop yet. (yeah boss lady said had to wait).  Anyway, they are solidly made.  Very accurate (yup had to at least try them).  I have other power sanders but what I needed what a better way to cut strip wood, and then to square up the cuts the hand crank sander will do that job really well.

 

What I like about the Ultimation Slicer is that it slices the wood rather than just chop it straight down and the blade on the "chopper" I have will crush the fibers (yeah it'll cut them but).  And the Slicer has one side of the blade is straight and the other side is the bevel.  So you only cut on one side the other side is your cut off side.

 

Both tools are solidly built and I believe will hold up for years.  Plus they say a lifetime warranty.  I'd say if you're looking for something the cut strip wood or to touch up an edge, take a look at the ultimation products.

[RossR]

The ultimation tools are on my wish list.  I wish it had positive stops for common angles though.  

[tom q vaxy]

i've had a few chances to use them on styrene and i do not regret the investment.

 

currently working on getting my 1:1 workshop projects far enough along i can squirrel some marine grade plywood for bases.

 

as a loose tool, they take a 3rd hand to hold steady during use.