An old manuscript titled Mostly for Model Ship Riggers, especially Hal

[Steve Davis]

Hello,  I am a new member to this site, thank you for admitting me. I have always been interested in ships and sailing ships in particular. Part of my interest was created when as a kid in the early 60's while on a trip thru the White Mountains of Arizona my family came across a pile of books in the middle of a lonely stretch of highway. All the books were on the subject of sailing ships. They were in a pile in the middle of the road so my parents stopped to pick them up. In the mix was a copy of an apparent unfinished manuscript with the above title. There was no cover and no indication of the author anywhere. It lists 40+ ships with very technical information on their rigging. Corrections and editing were done in red ink and pencil. I have kept it with me all these decades and have occasionally tried to search the title for any info but never have. On this site I see there was an author/illustrator named Harold Underhill.  It is just a wild shot but I was wondering if this was meant for him.  The manuscript is spiral bound with the name M&H Valve and Fitting Co.  It has around 75 pages left in it and is now yellow with age. All the printing was by hand. It has chapters starting with why the book was compiled, Miscellaneous data, (including gun dimensions),speed and wind data, Types of sailing ships and mostly information and diagrams of Tackle, Sails and Rigging. These are very in depth descriptions of rigging for specific ships.   There is some editing by hand in some of the pages. I always thought it would be important to people who are involved with such and would like it to go to someone/place who would appreciate it.  Sorry for the long winded letter.  It may be that  this is not important at this time, but any advise would be appreciated. Thank you for the chance to research this.

[Justin P.]

Very interesting!   I haven't the faintest about origin, but can tell you that you have quite a treasure there!  Could also be in reference to Harold Hahn - who knows?!  I'm a rare book conservator and have worked in and around bindery's a long time.   What I can tell you is that the Valve company likely had an in-house spiral binding machine and a stock of custom spirals with their name printed on them OR a stock of blank drafting journals pre-bound.  Like a company might order pens with their name on them...  Anyway, this was for employees to bind up their own notes/designs/drafts to keep in-house.   This is quite common and seen in archives etc.    My guess would be the author worked for M&H and took advantage of what was available at work to keep his manuscript together.     Either scenario is totally plausible.    Should you be desirous of some stabilization, repair work and/or consultation locally for preserving your find let me know, I can pull a name from our cohort of peer-reviewed conservators.   I'm sure there is someone in your area.   

 

 

[druxey]

This is certainly of interest. One wonders what the back-story is. Did it accidentally fall off a vehicle and the owner thought it lost forever? Did anyone call Harold Hahn 'Hal'?

[Steve Davis]

It was unusual because they were stacked in the middle of the 2 lane highway like someone just dumped them. Books were not damaged at all. It is much more detailed complete with formulas, lengths of line etc. than I can relate. It was already old and yellow when we found them. Strange thing to find in the central Arizona mountains. I wondered about Hahn being called Hal as well.  I'm glad for the internet when it comes to something like this.

[Steve Davis]

Thank Justin, I would be interested in giving it to someone that could use it or find a good home for it.  Someone went to a lot of work in the pre computer days to compile it and I would hate to have it disappear in time.   I will make copies of some of the pages but other than having a family history with it and possibly part of the reason I bought a big hole in the water years back it should be preserved for others.  And maybe find the original authors name.

 

[mtaylor]

Welcome to MSW.   I don't think Harold Hahn lived in Arizona as we was out of Ohio.  Strange that someone would dump a pile of books on a road in a neat stack and leave them there.

 

Was there anything inside the other books like a plate (paper) with the owner's name?  

[Steve Davis]

Hello, thanks, no there was not anything else in the pile.  Folks went through it trying to find an address because they always thought it was a student doing a project but we really have no idea.  It was miles from the nearest town (Springerville) and out of the way of normal thru Arizona travel. Mostly a vacation area at the time. Havn't been back there since 1972 so I'm sure its grown up by now. The other books were about old ships and such but not as technical as the manuscript. No library markings either.  Family mystery for decades.

[thibaultron]

A question for the moderators. If this was scaned and converted to a PDF, would you be interested in putting it on the forum? If, so I would be willing to do the scanning and conversion, then send the manuscript back to Steve.

[GrandpaPhil]

Welcome!

[Seahawk1313]

Interesting story.  I myself keep a note book not unlike that one for rigging.  Early U S Navy ships.  I'm basically old time pre computer guy.  A different Hal. 

[Keith Black]

Steve, welcome to MSW. Your manuscript is indeed a treasure that hopefully will be acquired by the NRG. Thank you for your family stopping those many years ago to rescue this book. 

[Jim Lad]

Hello Steve, and a warm welcome to the forum from 'Down Under'.

 

That sounds like a particularly interesting manuscript.  I think Keith's idea of it going to the NRG is a good one, if you think that would be a good home for it.

 

John

[kurtvd19]

This manuscript was brought to the attention of the NRG Board back on Oct. 26, 2020.  At that time after discussions and legal consultation we had decided that we cannot publish this work as there is a valid copyright to this work by whoever produced it.  We relayed this information to the member who contacted us within a short time.

The NRG cannot reproduce this work in any manner.  Nor can it be posted here - as it is covered by somebody's copyright and no permission can be obtained to post it as the author is unknown.  This is per the published policy of the NRG/MSW.

If somebody privately copies it and distributes it MSW cannot be used to advise others of it being available - even for free.  The NRG's and MSW's stance on protection of copyrights applies in this instance even if the author/copyright holder is unknown.

Further discussion about the manuscript is free to take place here if it does not involve reproduction or distribution of the manuscript.  All such discussions must not involve the pages of MSW or the private messaging system of MSW.

IF the author is ever discovered then we would be interested in making the work available.  It does look interesting, and it is a shame to have it remain unavailable but the NRG and MSW cannot be involved in any manner until the author is discovered.  If the author's ID is discovered, we would be interested in being contacted at that time.

[Keith Black]

 Kurt, I appreciate the NRG's position but I can not think of a better definition of copyright abandonment, 'an unsigned (orphaned works) and unpublished manuscript intentionally left in the middle of a public road'. 

[Bob Cleek]

9 hours ago, kurtvd19 said:

It does look interesting, and it is a shame to have it remain unavailable but the NRG and MSW cannot be involved in any manner until the author is discovered.  If the author's ID is discovered, we would be interested in being contacted at that time.

Perhaps it would be useful to check with the NRG's copyright attorney. Don't go by me, but I believe that works which did not carry the copyright notice on the document (e.g. (C) or "copyright" with the date and name of the claimant) before April 30, 1989 are not copyrighted.  For works first published on or after March 1, 1989, use of the copyright notice is optional. Before March 1, 1989, the use of the notice was mandatory on all published works. These documents were found in the 1960's without a copyright notice on them, so are older than March 1, 1989 and, without a copyright notice would not be copyrighted, or so it would seem. Better to ask your attorney so you can sue your attorney if a copyright holder sues the NRG, but just sayin'.

Edited September 25, 2021 by Bob Cleek

[Jaager]

This does not seem to be a hostile and defensive situation.  There is no obvious owner who is being protective.   I think asking for forgiveness for breaching copyright after publishing this, rather than asking permission before hand,  is the more efficient and productive course.  

In the fantasy situation where there is an actual copyright holder for this document,  it could smoke them out.  This occurring if  the probably 130+ year old owner actually cares.   This present stance is a pointless gesture to make an absolute statement.   It would be a better statement to add a footnote.  Just explain that we are willing to remove the document if the author comes forward and requests it.

[druxey]

It appears that M & H Valve and Fittings was named as such in 1926 and was sold to Walworth Valve in 1955:

 

https://www.mh-valve.com/about-us/company-history/

 

It seems the name was then shortened to M & H Valve. Therefore the notebook cannot be newer than 1955 or thereabouts. This was 66 years ago. How long does copyright remain with the author if is not renewed?

[Roger Pellett]

According to his book, The Colonial Schooner1763-1775, Harold Hahn did not take up serious ship model building until the 1960’s and began his Colonial Schooner Diorama In 1969.   Over 20 years before he had built models using the plans published in Popular Mechanics.  I also don’t know of any models that he built that were not Revolutionary War era.

 

Remarkably Hahn’s Grandfather was a deepwater sailor, who left the sea in 1880 to become a prospector in the American West.  He died in a blizzard in 1933.  Hahn says the he was just entering his teens when this happened and admits that this made little impression on him as they were separated by 2000 miles.  This means that the information in the notebook would have to have been compiled 40 years before Hahn was born.

 

I don’t think that Harold Hahn is the Hal on the front page of the notebook.

 

 

[Jack12477]

12 hours ago, druxey said:

How long does copyright remain with the author if is not renewed

In US, it is author's life plus 75    70 years if published after January 1st 1978. cf Duration of Copyright

Edited September 25, 2021 by Jack12477
Correct duraation of Copyright, add reference link.

[Keith Black]

When can I use copyrighted material without permission?

 

 What is fair use? Fair use allows limited use of copyrighted material without permission from the copyright holder for purposes such as criticism, parody, news reporting, research and scholarship, and teaching.

[tlevine]

Folks, the bottom line is this, the NRG leadership investigated this last year.  The Guild not interested in publishing this manuscript.  Mr. Davis has not even been on MSW for ten months.  There is no need for further discussion.  

[kurtvd19]

11 hours ago, Keith Black said:

When can I use copyrighted material without permission?

 

 What is fair use? Fair use allows limited use of copyrighted material without permission from the copyright holder

Fair use is several paragraphs from a book or article or a drawing from a book or article.  Showing part of a plan is fair use, duplicating a set of plans isn't.   Copying an entire book is not fair use under any circumstances.  In any case when using any material under fair use the source of the information must be noted.

 

Read the information on this in the Guidelines mentioned here last night - the rules for MSW are clearly spelled out there.

[Charles Green]

As enlightening as this manuscript's content may be, the NRG's inflexible stance on revealing it reflects two things: absolute fairness to the author and absolute terror of ruinous legal costs over a copyright dispute.  

 

As interested as I am in seeing this manuscript's content, I side with the NRG.  Perhaps some other agency may be interested in pursuing its publication

 

Lest anyone gain the impression I am advocating someone else publish this manuscript, I am editing this post to state I am not. 

Edited September 26, 2021 by Charles Green
punctuation

[Bob Cleek]

2 hours ago, Charles Green said:

Perhaps some other agency may be interested in pursuing its publication.

 

Actually, there's another ship modeling forum on the internet that's infamous for ignoring intellectual property rights. Let's not go there. Keep it real.  

Edited September 25, 2021 by Bob Cleek

[Justin P.]

Hi All,

 

Perhaps a few points of clarification....   Steve Davis turned the manuscript over to my care some time ago.  I don't think he ever intended to remain a member of MSW, rather I think he was looking for an appropriate place to pass on a precious thing that he has cared for since his family retrieved it from the side of the road in the early 60's.    It was/is important to him, and by extension is important to me.  The story is too good, and whats more, the manuscript itself is marvelously drafted and highly detailed.  Whoever the author was, they were very knowledgeable and highly detailed,  and most definitely a draftsman/engineer or both.   I haven't spoken to NRG about doing anything with it, nor had I intended to do so until I'd given a good effort at resolving the authorship question (for all the aforementioned reasons).  I have communicated to several members using the PM system but never on the subject of distribution.    Steve did have a mind to get it scanned and disseminated, and I think that would be reasonable at some point - however, as Kurt and Toni mentioned, it may not be appropriate until all reasonable effort has been made to establish authorship and copyright.   I also have access to quite a few copyright lawyers (and their professors) and have been getting, I think, pretty satisfactory advice on the matter.  

 

I have spent considerable time and effort chasing down leads and still have a few open lines of inquiry that I hope will go somewhere.   Some quite silly like the very random contacting of every "Hal" alive or dead in the ship modeling world that I can find (and their friends).  Some others more in depth - to include the Hahn and Underhill legacy's and some very complex and ongoing queries to include M&H Valve Company, the University of Glasgow, a pre-WWII heating contractor and many, many emails with archivists in the corporate as well as academic world.

 

I have no idea if this will go anywhere, or what I can legally do with the manuscript if I never track down the author (which is likely).  However, it would be a terrible shame for it to go unappreciated.   

 

I apologize that I neglected to update this thread with all this since last October when it was transferred to me.   Lots of plates spinning and all that...    Anyway, suffice to say the matter is ongoing and if anyone has any ideas Im all ears!   It currently lives in the book safe in my lab here in the Northwest, and Id be happy to show it to anyone who happens to be in the area.

[Windships]

A few thoughts on this intriguing find.

Thank you to Charley Green (member of our Southwest Idaho Ship Modelers Society) for alerting our group to it at yesterday's meeting.

 

Hal - My first thought was Underhill rather than Hahn, and that was reinforced by seeing the page listing vessels and basic data, which are all British or Australian. The typeface on the title page is reminiscent of that used for Underhill's Plank On Frame Models, but not identical. If that page was hand drawn, that might suggest the author had drafting training, but... the rest of the pages don't support that notion.

 

The spelling as "Hal" implies somebody's first name. I think the work was dedicated to a friend, or perhaps a son, grandson, or nephew, with the author hoping they would find the author's legacy useful later on.

 

Macquarie, Harbinger, and Cospatrick are all Blackwall Frigates, and mentioned in Lubbock's book of the same name.

MacQuarie and Harbinger were owned by Devitt & Moore, and are included in Painted Ports by Course.

MacQuarie at least was painted by Spurling, and was among the vessels of my own particular interest when first considering ship modeling.

 

Macquarie and Harbinger appear in Underhill's Masting & Rigging the Clipper Ship and Ocean Carrier, and Sail Training & Cadet Ships.

 

Hmmm...

Is the author a Brit, or of British ancestry?

Did his interest in these vessels come from reading Underhill, or Spurling's paintings encouraged him to seek data about those vessels?

The author's drawings are somewhat like those of McCann, and of Underhill, but...those views are necessary to record the rigging details important to the author.

Did he ever build ship models?

 

One of the drawings is specific to Endeavor. Where did he get those details?

 

Publication (somehow)

 

With only a few sample pages, it is hard to tell the value. And, today, we have more sources than apparently were available to this author.

 

Quick Comparison

 

Not long ago on eBay a set of drawings for a steel dragger fishing vessel came up. I forwarded the link to people and institutions whom I thought might have an interest. They are highly detailed, but in sketchbook format, rather than formal shipyard artifacts. The booklet may yet be for sale.

 

Good Luck in the quest for the origin of this material.

Thanks again Charley.

 

 

[Windships]

Notebook I mentioned 

may have been sold

 

https://vi.raptor.ebaydesc.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemDescV4&item=154494737018&category=29223&pm=1&ds=0&t=1633029819943&cspheader=1