PWS-10 by ccoyle - FINISHED - CardPlane - 1/33 - CARD - Polish trainer c. 1930 - Two for One build

[Keith Black]

Chris, have the directors considered adding a section for Card Build Logs? It's a fascinating medium and you and others totally amaze me with what you're capable of doing. It sure would make it much easier to drop in and check on card builds.

[ccoyle]

11 hours ago, Keith Black said:

Chris, have the directors considered adding a section for Card Build Logs?

 

No. Despite whatever interest has been on display here, card models are still a tiny fraction of what gets shown at MSW. Anyways, ships would just go in the general ship builds area, and aircraft fall under "non-categorized." This area is more or less a bonus area, offered as a courtesy to our members; offering more than this would conflict with MSW's primary mission. But there are numerous dedicated card-modeling forums on the internet. Some of our members are active on one or more of those sites.

[amateur]

Bit late, but I have seen some builders on a german forum to use double sided tape. Glue th thing to the inside of the canopy, cut the windows, and next peel the protection layer. 

Bit fiddly, but it seems to work. And yes, I will check whether or not I can fins a refer nce for the double sided

 

Jan

[amateur]

Sorry, the guy doesn't give a reference. 

 

http://www.die-kartonmodellbauer.de/index.php?thread/10799-messerschmitt-bf-110-4-r8-1-33-halinski/&pageNo=3

 

at the end of the page. He is a rather good builder: don't know how he does it: no sloppy sides, no fibers at the edges, no glue where it does not belong, just perfect....

(and the partsize of those halinski kits is mind blowing)

 

Jan

Edited July 25, 2021 by amateur

[ccoyle]

6 minutes ago, amateur said:

Bit late, but I have seen some builders on a german forum to use double sided tape.

 

I have used double-sided tape, too, but I'm not familiar with a brand that has any peel-off backing. What I did was apply the tape to the canopy frame, cut the panes out while the tape is laid over a sheet of glass, and then stick the frame to the canopy material. The problem with that method is that inevitably too much of the adhesive on the second side would rub off on the glass during the cutting, which adversely affected the frame-to-canopy bond. But tape with a peel-off backing might do the trick.

[ccoyle]

13 minutes ago, amateur said:

He is a rather good builder

 

That is a candidate for Understatement of the Year -- he is a master!

 

This caught my eye. Rounded parts with petals are one of my card-modeling kryptonites.

 

Any idea what that tool is and how much it might cost? Of course, there has to be a pressing tool for each size of mold.

[RichardG]

It's a dapping tool. http:// https://www.amazon.com/Classic-Dapping-Forming-Punches-Jewelry/dp/B07RQ53NJ8. As usual, the cost is all over the place.

 

[CDW]

Just now, amateur said:

Sorry, the guy doesn't give a reference. 

 

http://www.die-kartonmodellbauer.de/index.php?thread/10799-messerschmitt-bf-110-4-r8-1-33-halinski/&pageNo=3

 

at the end of the page. He is a rather good builder: don't know how he does it: no sloppy sides, no fibers at the edges, no glue where it does not belong, just perfect....

(and the partsize of those halinski kits is mind blowing)

 

Jan

 

That gentleman is an amazingly skilled modeler. Wow.

[ccoyle]

Whew! All landing gears and ailerons complete. I can't hardly fit both of these birds in one frame together. All that remains are skids, radiators, and propellers -- the radiators might be tricky.

 

[Egilman]

13 hours ago, ccoyle said:

Any idea what that tool is and how much it might cost? Of course, there has to be a pressing tool for each size of mold.

It is know in the jewelry making world as a Dapping set....

 

Amazon.....

Harborfreight...

In the $45 to $50.00 range. Mine, (Harborfreight) works like a charm not only to shape paper, but light plastics as well...

 

 

[Danstream]

Your paper planes look amazing. I know, others have already said that, but this is just what it is.

Best regards,

Dan.

[popeye the sailor]

so good to see your progress Chris.......they are looking really good!    I recall the site James used to have.....it was a sister site to MSW.

[Ras Ambrioso]

Chris: just by chance I got into your posting. I love your work and I am waiting to finish my Fifie to start the V108 and get into the card business. The Halinski Spitfire wire beckons. 

[ccoyle]

Okay, we are sorta halfway to the finish line. Spanish Nationalist is mostly done. There were quite a few more fiddly bits at the end than I had anticipated, and there's still a few left that I need to wrestle with. The kits contain control horns (but I lost Spanish Nationalist's), but the diagrams don't show their locations clearly. The photos I have looked at don't help much, either. Also still need to add a pitot tube, which is misnumbered on the diagrams and for which there is no template for making the wire piece. Not deal killers by any stretch, just things that need to be thought about. Will try to finish White Tail this week.

 

[ccoyle]

You know how sometimes when you go digging for information online, you find more questions than answers? Many of the images I have found online for the PWS-10 show the plane without any obvious control horns, or at least not any that can be picked out of the grainy images. But I finally found the one shown below at https://www.smartage.pl/pws-10-zapomniany-poprzednik-mysliwcow-pulawskiego/. The photo appears to show two horns on the right aileron. Interestingly, they are on the underside of the aileron, while the horn locations on the kit ailerons are marked on their upper surfaces. The kit doesn't show at all where the actuators enter the wing, so that will require a best-guess.

 

Also of interest in the photo is the chin-mounted radiator. The kit radiator models the type shown in the photo, but I have seen other photos and drawings with different radiators. Sources also disagree on the number of bracing rods behind the radiator. In addition to the starboard side rod seen in the photo, which clearly attaches to the rear of the radiator, some sources show an additional rod that attaches to the side of the radiator. The kit drawings show this additional rod, but, unlike for the first pair of supports, neither the radiator parts nor the fuselage are marked to show where this rod should attach. I'm guessing the second pair of braces may have been an in-the-field upgrade, so I feel comfortable about leaving them off.

 

Also also of interest, this photo (as well as others I have seen) shows a Spanish example with spoked wheels, which I will in no wise try to imitate! 😬

 

[Egilman]

Chris,

 

There is no obvious control cables cause they were internal to the wing... The two control horns are "L" shaped bellcranks linked together with the control cables inside the wings.... It is also why you see no control horns for the Elevator or Rudder, they are internal to the fuselage.... Pretty much standard practice in the early '30's

Edited August 2, 2021 by Egilman

[ccoyle]

Thanks, Egilman. I may not have gotten all the jargon correct -- I just know that there is a doohickey that enters the wing at some point not marked on the wing skin. 😁  I'm also very happy that aircraft of that period were transitioning to all-internal controls; nevertheless. more than a few of the kits in my stash still have some external cables (thinking in particular about my de Havilland Tiger Moth).

 

BTW, here's a picture that shows a similar control horn. What I have to guesstimate is where the control rod passes through the wing skin.

[Egilman]

1 hour ago, ccoyle said:

BTW, here's a picture that shows a similar control horn. What I have to guesstimate is where the control rod passes through the wing skin.

That's the point, there isn't one.... The horn connected to the aileron goes to a faired over pivot point with a leg that enters the wing to where the control rod connects...  The horn is no longer mounted on the aileron surface, it's mounted on the wing surface itself...

[ccoyle]

4 hours ago, Egilman said:

The horn connected to the aileron goes to a faired over pivot point with a leg that enters the wing to where the control rod connects...  The horn is no longer mounted on the aileron surface, it's mounted on the wing surface itself...

 

Ya lost me -- I can't picture what that looks like.

[Old Collingwood]

1 hour ago, ccoyle said:

 

Ya lost me -- I can't picture what that looks like.

This  is the best I can do Chris  - I think on the out side of the wing there would be a  half cone shape opening  (imagine a cone cut down the middle, inside this the  link rod would go where it would meet the pivit conection on the Aileron  and the other way it would dissapeer inside the wing.

 

Hope  this helps - had a quick fiddle in Paint.

 

OC.

[Egilman]

4 hours ago, ccoyle said:

 

Ya lost me -- I can't picture what that looks like.

Upon further research, (digging around in my very dusty archives) I've come up with some images and I think I lost myself as well... Yes they have a horn much like you showed in your photo....

 

2 hours ago, Old Collingwood said:

Hope  this helps - had a quick fiddle in Paint.

Very Very close OC, your vision was much better and closer to accurate than mine.....

 

Now on to the images.....

 

You can see the horn, control rod and fairing in the artist's image above....

It was present on the prototype as shown above....

Fueling on the field, but you can clearly see them both in the above photo... Two on each aileron spaced on either side of the aft strut...

Ground looped here laying on it's back, you can clearly see both horns.....

I know it's a PWS-11, but it is the same wing design and basic fuselage with a radial engine....

The last image is another PWS-11, the final version of the design, still the exact same wing design and you can see the outer horn on the aileron and how the control rod dives directly into the wing from the horn.... I would say at the most about 8" in front of the horn on a straight line forward towards the aft spar of the wing.....

 

That's the best I got brother, as you say there isn't much online for this one but grainy low res images... I hope these higher res ones help...

 

EG

[ccoyle]

8 hours ago, Old Collingwood said:

I think on the out side of the wing there would be a  half cone shape opening  (imagine a cone cut down the middle, inside this the  link rod would go where it would meet the pivit conection on the Aileron  and the other way it would dissapeer inside the wing.

 

That makes sense and appears to match what can sorta be made out in the photos. Of course, the kit makes no provision for either the rod or the fairing, but it does look a little weird with just the horn and no connector. I'll have to see what I can drum up.

 

Some good pics there, Egilman! Our Polish friends publish some pretty good walk-around volumes.

[Egilman]

5 hours ago, ccoyle said:

Some good pics there, Egilman! Our Polish friends publish some pretty good walk-around volumes.

My pleasure my friend, I've been collecting these little books for decades... Easily have hundreds of them, and yes, a lot of them are in Polish.... {chuckle} These images came from TBiU #157 Samolot Mysliwski PWS-10... The producer (Polish Ministry of National Defense) is out of the publishing business (since 2006) although you can find them on evilbay quite often and some are even in the internet archive if you want a PDF copy... But the PDF copies are of varying quality some are not even worth downloading.... I don't go tracking them down anymore, but when I need to reference a specific item I usually find it....

 

Anyway, I hope they help,... (in the pic of the ground looped aircraft, you can clearly see along the aft spine below, (or above in the pic) the horizontal stabilizer, the fairing for the rudder control rod) Lots a detail in those pics...

Edited August 3, 2021 by Egilman

[ccoyle]

1 hour ago, Egilman said:

the fairing for the rudder control rod

 

Yep, I noticed that. There is no provision for that in the kit. I think I will skip that bit, otherwise I may lose my sanity by looking for additional super-detailing opportunities! 😬

[Egilman]

3 minutes ago, ccoyle said:

I may lose my sanity by looking for additional super-detailing opportunities!

I understand, I've actually done that myself several times.... {chuckle}

[mtaylor]

I've found that sanity (especially in our hobby) to be highly overrated.   As the Marx Brothers would say.."There is no sanity clause".

[Keith Black]

1 minute ago, mtaylor said:

I've found that sanity (especially in our hobby) to be highly overrated

 

 Mark, these days I think a little insanity is required to make it through the day. It's one of those if you can't beat em, join em situations.

[ccoyle]

I have to take back an earlier observation. While I was working on the planes this evening, I did find where the fuselage is marked for the rudder control rod fairings. Bother! 🙄 But no parts for these were included.

[Egilman]

10 minutes ago, ccoyle said:

While I was working on the planes this evening, I did find where the fuselage is marked for the rudder control rod fairings.

{chuckle} Your hooked and you know it.... No parts included? that's cause they know that they are hooking you....

[Ras Ambrioso]

Guys this last thread about the aileron horns is another reason I love this forum. We are not only modelers but historians. Thanks you guys.