Planking Question

[Malazan]

I have two questions actually 

 

1. Is it easier to plank in long strips, or in shorter pieces?

 

2. Does anyone have a good video of someone cutting the Rabbet, I’m terrified of starting this process 😆 

[glbarlow]

Try looking at these

 

 

 

[Malazan]

Thanks, I already watched that. Still doesn’t show how to cut the Rabbet also still unsure about the long vs short plank technique 

 

I guess it’s called scale planking, is this correct?

Edited October 7, 2021 by Malazan

[barkeater]

I think you mean planking to scale. If you are building a model and want to be as exact as possible your planks should be of similar length as would have been used on the actual ship build. I do 1/48 scale. The maximum length that would have been available for general use in the time period I'm interested in would have been 20 feet. Converting this to 1/48 scale (20 times 12 divided by 48) yields a length of 5 inches in my scale. I therefore limit my maximal plank lengths to 5 inches to reflect the scale.  Concerning planking in longer vs. shorter lengths. It can be harder to get good edge approximation especially along curves with a longer length plank extending from stem to stern than with shorter lengths. With a tough curve you really have to work the wood which is easier if you are dealing with a shorter length to match up. Rabbet video I can't help you with but you can either make a template from a copy of your plans and glue this to the keel with watered down pva or measure it out on the keel carefully. I use the former. Take a scalpel then and carefully and slowly  cut into the keel along your line at 90 degrees and then slowly create your groove on the inside of your first cut. It actually is easier than it looks. Just go slow. Some people use files or chisels for this but I personally prefer a sharp scalpel.

Richard

[Jasseji]

3 hours ago, Malazan said:

I have two questions actually 

 

1. Is it easier to plank in long strips, or in shorter pieces?

 

2. Does anyone have a good video of someone cutting the Rabbet, I’m terrified of starting this process 😆 

Cant comment on 2. but i found that it is easier to plank in SOME areas if you cut the plank in half (or do a little "stepping" like one plank to bulhead for instance 6, 2nd one cut at 5, 3rd at 6 etc.)

 

This is helpful especially to separate planks which need to be tapered and bended both on bow and stern (also if you find the plank is screwed up on one end but good on the other end, you dont need to redo it, especially if you do it on 2nd planking and use CA Glue then ripping out a plank is a no-go)

 

Garboard i found doing in one go is best, also when doing planking in invisible areas i do the easier end like 5 planks stepped to different bulheads and then bother with the harder end

[Dr PR]

Richard is correct IF you are building "to scale" in all details. Many models are not built this way.

 

Short pieces work best on a plank on frame model with dozens of closely spaced frames. The frames are relatively wide and closely spaced to give the planks the proper hull shape. You can also use actual ship building techniques for "stealers" and hooked planking.

 

If you are building a plank on bulkhead model (most kits) with just a few widely spaced bulkheads short planks create two problems.

 

One, the bulkheads are fairly thin on edge, giving little room for glue. This is especially true where you are trying to join two planks end-to-end on a bulkhead. Due to the curvature of the hull the plank ends will try to pop loose, especially on sharper curved sections of the hull. You can always attach additional wood on either side of the bulkhead to give a larger gluing area for the plank ends.

 

Two, if a plank end attaches to a bulkhead on a curved part of the hull, the plank will try to run straight line to the next bulkhead and will not follow the true curvature of the hull. Where two planks butt together at a curved part of the hull they will not form a smoothly curved strake, but will have a sharp "kink" or "knuckle" at the bulkhead. This will  not match the curvature of the adjacent planks. If you try to sand this junction to a smooth curve you may sand all the way through the planks at the join - this is not good!

 

I have built several plank on bulkhead models using full length planks from bow to stern. It is tricky trying to get the proper width and curvature at the ends, but it isn't hard if you are careful while shaping the pieces. You will have to include stealers near the stern on most models. I think using short planks on plank on bulkhead models is just asking for trouble.

 

Also, some kits do not have enough bulkheads, usually midships. This leads to flat areas on the hull between the bulkheads even if you use full length planks. If any two bulkheads are spaced more than 2 inches (5 centimeters) apart you should consider creating a new bulkhead midway between them. This isn't hard to do - just duplicate the widest of the two existing bulkheads, fasten it in place, and shape it to size with a sanding block. This will ensure the proper curvature for the hull surface.

 

Jacek's suggestion of using two shorter planks instead of one long plank is a good idea, but be sure to place the butt joints near midships, and do not place the joins at the same bulkhead on adjacent strakes. Like he says, it is easier to just work on the bow and stern curvatures on separate planks than on one long plank.

Edited October 7, 2021 by Dr PR

[Dziadeczek]

Also you can plank your hull with full length planks and afterwards score each plank across with a sharp exacto blade to imitate the joints between individual planks. I think this way might be a bit easier rather than trying to shape each shorter plank individually and identically to the rest of the short ones.

[tlevine]

Based on your post in the Half Hull Project sub-forum, let me add some comments.  On that hull, I spaced the bulkheads close together to allow you to easily plank with prototypical planks of 15-25 feet.  As this is a Continental ship, there was access to taller, wider, old-growth trees than in Britain at that time.  The bulkheads are also thick enough to provide sufficient gluing surfaces.  Also, I usually put a tiny bead of glue on the long edge of the plank to secure it to the adjoining plank. If you are spiling, it is very difficult to run an accurately cut plank the entire length of the hull.  If you are building a kit with two layers of planking, it makes sense to run the first layer the full length of the hull and then "correctly" plank the second layer.

 

Most importantly, practice off the model.  Once you are comfortable, then go back to the model to cut the rabbet.  I think you will discover that it is not as difficult as you fear.

[barkeater]

I agree with DR PR on single planked models but if you are doing a double planked model the extra spacing between bulkheads is not a problem. For newbies I would recommend a double planked model. The first planking will allow you to learn before you put on the second planking. For the first planking use longer strips as it will go faster and it won't be visible on the finished model. You can add a false bulkhead say half way between the original bulkheads. Just mark where your bulkheads are by drawing a line over your first planking as you go along. (In fairing or shaping of bulkheads it is imperative that you do a good job in making sure that the planks are in contact across the full breadth of the bulkhead and that there is a smooth fit along multiple adjacent bulkheads. It will save you a lot of grief later and help prevent kinks and uneven spots.) Once you have the first planking done your model should have multiple straight lines going perpendicular to for and aft. Now just take a ruler and measure out in this example 1/2 half distance between bulkheads and pencil in a false bulkhead between the lines you have already drawn on your model. You have doubled the number of bulkheads and since you are attaching plank over plank you have a solid base which will allow you to plank the finished model in scale if you so desire. There are lots of different ways that work in building these models and you just have to find what works for you. Good luck.

Richard

[Malazan]

Thank you all for the information, I’m starting to visualize some things. Trying also to learn all the nautical terms. Getting confused with Garboard, strake, spilling, stealer, whale etc 😂 

[tlevine]

One of the best ways to get started in this hobby is to start developing your library.  Charles Davis wrote The Build-Up Ship Model in 1933.  It is available as an e-book on Amazon for $10.  It takes you through the construction of a late 18th century brig but more importantly, it introduces you to a lot of the terms you see used here.  There are more thorough and more expensive books out there but as a starting point you can't go wrong for the price.

[Bob Cleek]

3 hours ago, tlevine said:

One of the best ways to get started in this hobby is to start developing your library.  Charles Davis wrote The Build-Up Ship Model in 1933.  It is available as an e-book on Amazon for $10.  It takes you through the construction of a late 18th century brig but more importantly, it introduces you to a lot of the terms you see used here.  There are more thorough and more expensive books out there but as a starting point you can't go wrong for the price.

Truer words were never spoken. A top condition first edition of The Built Up Ship Model is going for $125.00, which amazed me, but you can get a paperback reprint for six bucks. Anything by Charles Davis is worth adding to one's library. The same goes for any of Harold Underhill's works, particularly Plank on Frame Models and Scale Masting and Rigging (Vols. I and II) and Masting and Rigging: The Clipper Ship and Ocean Carrier. For those who haven't grown up and lived with ships all their life, and even for those who have, I would say a copy of The Oxford Companion to Ships and the Sea, by the publishers of the Oxford English Dictionary, belongs on every modeler's bookshelf, and, for those without bookshelves, it's available for free at: Oxford Companion to Ships and the Sea - Oxford Reference Put it in your favorites list and you'll never have a problem with the nomenclature again.

 

Interestingly, despite the unbelievable amount of information on the internet (along with an incredible amount of garbage,) ship modelers who have not built a sufficient research library will forever remain at the mercy of the kit manufacturers whose plans and instructions may leave something to be desired. The good news is that many of these works are readily available on the used market (google is your friend) at prices low enough not to arouse "the purser's" suspicions.

[Justin P.]

51 minutes ago, Bob Cleek said:

Interestingly, despite the unbelievable amount of information on the internet (along with an incredible amount of garbage,) ship modelers who have not built a sufficient research library will forever remain at the mercy of the kit manufacturers whose plans and instructions may leave something to be desired.

So true.   Indeed one of my favorite parts of the hobby is the collecting/curating my library.   

[glbarlow]

No one has asked this and you haven’t said. What model are you building?  Expansive libraries aren’t essential or even necessary for a beginner,in most basic commercial models a rabbet isn’t necessary, you can bevel the plank to match the stem and keel.  If it’s a double planked hull, go with a single plank bow to stern but watch those videos and learn how to plank properly. If you do the right planning, measuring, and tapering you shouldn’t need to cut planks in half to fit on a standard model, in fact that won’t help you learn to plank better. 
 

This advice posts can over complicate things as often as not. Frankly you haven’t provided enough information to get a clear answer so things go on tangents. 
 

What model are you building, do you even need a rabbet, as a beginner a single plank bow to stern is easier to manage that scaled lengths. Even then you need a proper shift pattern planned out, not just randomly cutting planks. 

Edited October 8, 2021 by glbarlow

[Bob Cleek]

10 minutes ago, glbarlow said:

This advice posts can over complicate things as often as not. Frankly you haven’t provided enough information to get a clear answer so things go on tangents. 
 

What model are you building, do you even need a rabbit, as a beginner a single plank bow to stern is easier to manage that scaled lengths. Even then you need a proper butt shift pattern planned out, not just randomly cutting planks to make the job easier or quicker. 

Indeed they do complicate things sometimes.   He asked about cutting rabbets, so I figured he'd gotten that far. Now you've given him "butt shift patterns" to worry about.  

Edited October 8, 2021 by Bob Cleek

[Bob Cleek]

4 hours ago, Justin P. said:

Indeed one of my favorite parts of the hobby is the collecting/curating my library.

Ain't that the truth! I've loved books all my life and I've learned a tremendous amount from them. I can't imagine pursuing ship modeling any distance without a good research library. It's such a joy to be able to look up the answers from authoritative sources. That's part of the difference between making a model and assembling one.

[Roger Pellett]

60 years or so collecting model building and maritime history books and not done yet.  In 1990, I had the opportunity to include a dedicated library for them.  When I’m consigned to a “luxury home for active seniors” 😠 the next owner will probably turn it into a personal gaming space.

 

Roger

 

[mtaylor]

First two photos didn't come down the pipe, Roger.  They're links to nowhere.

[Malazan]

2 hours ago, glbarlow said:

No one has asked this and you haven’t said. What model are you building?  Expansive libraries aren’t essential or even necessary for a beginner,in most basic commercial models a rabbet isn’t necessary, you can bevel the plank to match the stem and keel.  If it’s a double planked hull, go with a single plank bow to stern but watch those videos and learn how to plank properly. If you do the right planning, measuring, and tapering you shouldn’t need to cut planks in half to fit on a standard model, in fact that won’t help you learn to plank better. 
 

This advice posts can over complicate things as often as not. Frankly you haven’t provided enough information to get a clear answer so things go on tangents. 
 

What model are you building, do you even need a rabbet, as a beginner a single plank bow to stern is easier to manage that scaled lengths. Even then you need a proper shift pattern planned out, not just randomly cutting planks to make the job easier or quicker. 

Well I’m actually going to build the Model Shipways Dory, Pram, Smack to get a feel for this stuff,  then I plan on building the Lady Nelson.  I’m actually going to be using glennard2523’s and your Build Log as  my references. After that, I was going to try the Vanguard Alert.

Edited October 8, 2021 by Malazan

[glbarlow]

Thank you for referencing my log. After the Lady Nelson I’d suggest Speedy, Flirt or Duchess.  Alert is just a better version of Lady Nelson, a small cutter.  You shouldn’t need a rabbet on any of those and running planks the full length of the hull is the best course with all these models. If you wanted a rabbet on the keel you can sand or file the frame former to about half its width, ¼ on each side.  Once you attach the keel, you have a rabbet. The simpler way is just to bevel the plank to match the angle to the keel, same concept at the stem, it works fine on these models.

 

Garboard by the way is nothing more than the plank closest to the keel, it’s a little more challenging to fit, but it’s still just a plank.

 

My advice is to read less and build more, these models don’t have to be complicated or researched.  You can learn as you go or research along the way if that interests you.  As a beginner the best thing to do is build stuff.  There are plenty of logs, post your own and you’ll get the help you need as you need it.

[tlevine]

Glenn, I respectfully disagree.  Read everything you can.  The more you know, the better your model will be, whether it is the simplest kit on the market or a fully-framed ship of the line.  The first time I read Underhill was when I was building a solid hull Bounty by Scientific.  It encouraged me to learn more and improve/expand my skills and knowledge.

[Justin P.]

3 minutes ago, tlevine said:

Read everything you can.

Agreed.   However, I think the spirit of Glenn's wisdom still has value.   Read everything you can, when you cannot be building.  At least this version has served me well.   If I have bench time, Im building.  I try to not spend too much of that valuable time with my nose in a book.   The more I build, the better modeler I become.   When I cant be at the bench, I READ.   I read MSW, I read modeling books, I read articles, I read Age of Sail fiction and non-fiction, etc...   I also try to read as much as I can regardless of context on my modeling subject.   This enriches my experience.  

 

Maybe its just me... maybe Im obsessive.   I know both daughter and wife cant possibly roll their eyes enough or groan any louder when they see another book arrive or I start in about how their current life issue is analogous to that time Captain so-and-so did that thing back in 1740...   ha!     

 

My advice would be to focus on the Dory, read a few things about the Dory - get to know the design, its purpose and history and just start building it.   

[Justin P.]

To specifically answer your question though, cutting the rabbet can be made easier when you consider using a scraper method as opposed to actually "cutting" the rabbet.   I had mixed/poor results trying to use a knife.   However once I learned how to perfect a custom scraper tool from a box knife blade, my result got much better.    I wish I could pull the best resource to share on this method out of thin air, but I cant recall how I put it together.   Its covered in good detail in many places on the forum, and in a articles here and there.   Maybe someone else can link to something that covers this well.     The problem with having access to so much good info on MSW is that its hard to remember where in the site it came from when the time comes!

 

 

[glbarlow]

Justin helps makes my point, thank you. To be clear I’m an avid reader, my Kindle always has multiple books and one in progress at all times. I also have a number of the key reference books, which I used rigging Pegasus to be historically accurate.
 

A beginning modeler doesn’t need to fall down the rabbit hole of maritime research, building a basic model should be simple, rewarding, and purposeful.  Building confidence and basic skills through experience of doing comes first. While I did use references to make rigging on my LN a bit more complete it wasn’t my first model and there is little gained from detailed research on this entry level model (I built it as a refresher after a very long layoff to see if I wanted to restart my building, a small investment if I didn’t.)

 

I’m not saying research and books aren’t good, just that it’s overkill and possibly overwhelming when first starting out or for building most commercial models as is. For example I trust that Chris for Flirt & Sphinx and Chuck for Cheerful & Winchelsea have done all the necessary research needed to build a great model. As Justin said, there is a time for reading and a time for building. 

 

And…I like plans and drafts far better anyway (my ship room wall):

Edited October 9, 2021 by glbarlow

[Gregory]

 

 

16 minutes ago, glbarlow said:

A beginning modeler doesn’t need to fall down the rabbit hole of maritime research, building a basic model should be simple, rewarding, and purposeful.

Nice pun!

 

The word " rabbet " is probably not found  in any European ship kit plans or instructions...  I don't know if Vanguard is an exception to that.

 

Thousands of those models have been built without the builder ever knowing what a rabbet is.

 

It is most useful on single planked models, but even then , it is possible to plank without it, but very hard to get a clean look where the planking meets the keel and stem..

Edited October 8, 2021 by Gregory

[barkeater]

Glenn,

loved the architectural drawings you had framed. I'm looking forward to doing the same with my current build but am still using it for measurements. 

Rich

[allanyed]

Great advice from Toni!!!!  The more you read the more satisfying and fun the hobby can be.   The more you read the better.   

 

Allan

[Dr PR]

I think a beginner should build first and read later!

 

What do you want to do, read a book or build a model? If you are building a kit you don't need to read anything more than the kit instructions. Well, maybe. I have never seen a kit with really complete instructions, but you can get by. And you can always ask for help or advice here.

 

There is great satisfaction from completing your first build. But if you get sidetracked trying to learn every detail of every part of ships, through all ages, and all nations, you will never get anything done. And beginners need that first build to learn if ship modeling is really what they want to do. If not they can still read the books if they are of interest. Maybe research is really what they will want to do, without wasting time building a model!

 

The first build will not be a museum piece. It will be a learning experience. You learn about the materials - wood,  plastic and metal. You learn about paints and glues. And you learn what tools you need and how to use them. And in the process you will have questions, and that leads to research. But one topic at a time, and as you need the information.

[Laggard]

On 10/6/2021 at 6:44 PM, Malazan said:

I have two questions actually 

 

1. Is it easier to plank in long strips, or in shorter pieces?

 

2. Does anyone have a good video of someone cutting the Rabbet, I’m terrified of starting this process 😆 

I’m new too and to be honest never quite understood the rabbet.  No amount of videos really made it clear what the purpose was and how to do it. 

[Gregory]

The Rabbet ( rebate ) is a groove that the planks fit into at the Stem and along the keel.

Here is Glbarlow's Cheerful..  The ends of the planks butt into the rabbet at the stem.

The garboard plank sits in the rabbet along the keel.

 

In modeling it can be simulated in a couple of different ways ..  It isn't always necessary to cut it..

 

In this topic, I showed an example of how a thin strip down the center of the keel and stem simulates the rabbet when separate  keel and stem pieces are added to the backbone in a plank-on-bulkhead model..

 There are probably hundreds if not thousands of examples in the build logs..

 

Just search for " rabbet " ..

 

Edited October 20, 2021 by Gregory