HM Sloop Echo 1781 by VTHokiEE - 1:48 - Cross-Section

[VTHokiEE]

1 hour ago, glbarlow said:

This takes an a level of attention to detail I'm not sure I could muster.  Very interesting work, glad to see you back at it

Thanks Glen; I’m glad to be at it as well. It feels good to be creating again. I think you’re trying to sell yourself short though, from reading through your logs attention to details doesn’t come off as one of your weaknesses :-).

[VTHokiEE]

Frame 3 is done and dusted and as I move on to the next frame I was wondering if anyone could help me understand what the "extra" lines in frame plans 4 and 5 are (highlighted below on the plan for frame 4) :

I read through the framing instructions, power point and several build longs and found the following explanation from Greg on a build log:

 

"The chocked joints become angled  as you progress towards the fore and aft hulls. Note the dashed lines in frames 4 & 5 on the plan. Otherwise the fairing process could break through the face of the chock. However, this angle is so slight on the cross-section section we have chosen it's not really an issue."

 

Unfortunately I don't fully understand what I am supposed to do differently when building these 4 frames. I assume I have to do some angled fairing on the aft side? If so would this be more easily accomplished during fairing? Thank you for any help and insight.

Edited September 7, 2022 by VTHokiEE
Remove unwanted frowning face

[mtaylor]

Some builder do "pre-fair" using those lines. If you decide to go that route, don't fair completely to the line but leave a little "meat" for final fairing after all the frames have been added. 

[VTHokiEE]

3 hours ago, mtaylor said:

Some builder do "pre-fair" using those lines.

Thanks Mark, I can see that for line 1, but that wouldn’t apply for the dashed line 2 - or would it?

 

I think I’ll do all my fairing later simply because I think this is actually on the reverse side of the frame and I don’t want to make a mistake.

[mtaylor]

1 hour ago, VTHokiEE said:

Thanks Mark, I can see that for line 1, but that wouldn’t apply for the dashed line 2 - or would it?

 

I think I’ll do all my fairing later simply because I think this is actually on the reverse side of the frame and I don’t want to make a mistake.

Good idea.  The lines for the fairing will give you an idea of how much to sand.  Just make sure the bulkheads face the right direction.  Don't ask how I know this ().

[iMustBeCrazy]

2 hours ago, VTHokiEE said:

but that wouldn’t apply for the dashed line 2 - or would it?

Sort of, it indicates that the chock has a beveled face so that when you fair the frame you you don't weaken it too much by making it too thin on that side at the chock. (Hope that makes sense).

 

 

[dvm27]

I do not bevel any of my frames until after they are installed and supported with fillers (which are later unglued with alcohol). During the beveling process the aft outer edge of the frame is reduced to Line 1. Line 2 represents the inside aft edge of the frame and chock after beveling. If the chocked joint does not receive a bevel the aft edge of the frame could break into it later. So the chocked joint must be beveled to prevent this. I do this on my mill but it can be readily accomplished by using a chisel.

[VTHokiEE]

@dvm27 and @iMustBeCrazy Thank you very much for the picture and the  detailed explanation (apparently I learn better from pictures than words - once I saw the picture everything started aligning in my brain). I've been spending some time in TFFM Vol.1 as well to see these chocks. I don't have a tilting vice yet for my mill so I think I will have to take the chisel (or maybe even filing approach).

[VTHokiEE]

A little over a year and I finally arrived at a HUGE (to me) milestone - all the frames are finished! I wrapped up the twelfth frame today (what a journey). I decided to walk through (most of) the steps I wen through constructing the frame. I first did a little editing of the frame layouts to provide myself with some more lines for aligning parts in my mill vise, then I cut the components out and rubber cemented them to the appropriate width lumber stock. 

After the cement dried I used a jeweler's saw and cut each part out for milling and sanding.

Next I went to work with my mill to try to fine tune the cutouts.

As discussed previously I had to cut some parts at an angle, I've tried doing this simply filing by hand and then attempted to do it on the mill as well. I have to say I don't have a good way to set the vises up precisely so filing by hand worked better for me.

Gluing everything up was rather straight forward. The only real trick was setting up the correct offsets for the top timbers which I cut with my Byrnes saw from some left over stock. Sadly, this went un-pictured but I was quite happy with the result.

Next up was drawing some bamboo for treenails, drilling the holes (still not great at doing this straight by hand - will have to continue practicing), and voila!

This has been quite the learning experience and I've got my fingers crossed that when I go to raise them I won't find out that they need to be re-done (😬). So I'm currently planning out how to raise these frames so they are level and parallel. I'm enjoying this project quite a bit; it has me really focusing on planning things out (of course not all my plans have played out, but c'est la vie). 

[Rustyj]

Great to see you get the frames finished. I'm looking forward to the raising. 😁

 

[dvm27]

A simple jig will insure that the frames are level and parallel. Use a 1/8" plywood piece that's taller than the top timbers and wider than the widest frame. In the center mortise out a slot the width of the keel and height of the rising wood. Glue a couple of 45 degree pieces on the back to keep the jig at 90 degrees to the building board.  If your jig is a very tight fit to the keel you can slide it up and down the keel to insure the frames are at the correct location. By marking a centerline on the jig you can pencil in the height of the top timbers and maximum height of breath of the frame to insure they're installed correctly.

[VTHokiEE]

23 hours ago, dvm27 said:

A simple jig will insure that the frames are level and parallel.

Thanks Greg, I think I'll have to either redo/rethink my jig (below) which I build from some MDF scrap - I based it off the templates included in the build but I think I need more height (which may require a longer base as well). When I tried to level the dead flat I wasn't confident that it was level - it looked okay to the eye (but I'm not certain that I can really trust my eyes :-). I'll need to think on this more, maybe some graph paper would help to show lines.

[druxey]

Don't trust your eye for leveling frames! A heavy card construction will do for a jig.

[VTHokiEE]

38 minutes ago, druxey said:

Don't trust your eye for leveling frames!

Have no fear, I won't trust them :-). I did see a handy tutorial in @Maury S build log (very grateful for it) here (Post 9 I believe):

 

I think I'm going to give this a shot and see if I'm happy with the results - no need to rush so I'll do my best to be confident before gluing and if needed try another plan.

[glbarlow]

Although "just" a frame - it is meticulous work well done!

[VTHokiEE]

On 11/11/2022 at 9:00 PM, glbarlow said:

it is meticulous work well done!

Thank you! Learning something new with every step - my next cross section is going to be great 😁

 

I think I found a path forward for me raising frames. First I attached a crossmember on the frame and then drew two parallel lines for the keel.

Next using a square I lined up the frame (please excuse my inability to take a picture dead on). 

 

My 1-2-3 setup blocks helped to hold the brace down nicely while I fine tuned everything.

I'm now staring at the frame and trying to decide if I'm ready for glue or not. I'll walk away for a little while and then come back if see if I'm still happy with all the different aspects of the alignment before committing to glue. Oh and don't forget to keep on eye on the keel rabbet and the bottom of the frame - almost forgot about that aspect.

 

Of course once this frame is raised I'll need to immediately tweak the process as I need to align the frame from the rear (and I might not be able to use the brace, we'll have to see how it goes). I'm feeling a fair bit more confident about the process now.

[captain_hook]

Very nice work! Lots of patience and skill necessary to build the frames but when completed successfully it definitely shows. And the yellow cedar has such an nice warm yellow color.

[VTHokiEE]

Thank you very much @captain_hook and everyone else for the likes and comments. I seem to have run into a discrepancy as I found two frame facing different directions depending on which file I was looking at highlighted in the following image.

When I noticed the discrepancy I pulled off the 3rd frame which I had just aligned so I could think about things. After looking at few build logs the sided_frame_dimensions.pdf seems to be predominately used; the cross section in the framing guide looks like it used the other layout which was in the framing instructions. I suppose it doesn't really matter and I think I will follow the sided_frame_dimension.pdf layout as most have already done, but I was curious if that was correct. @dvm27 do you have an opinion on it?

 

EDIT: Tried to look at the image at https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-83627 (which I think is correct), and I can't quite make it out but it seems like the image in the framing instructions might match the drawing, but I realized that these both have special top timbers so they only go in one way :-). 

Edited November 17, 2022 by VTHokiEE

[dvm27]

Either one would work so long as the ports are correctly framed. But, I believe the right image ("sided") is the one I used as I included the widths on my working copy.

[VTHokiEE]

7 hours ago, dvm27 said:

Either one would work so long as the ports are correctly framed

Thank you!

[VTHokiEE]

After raising frame 1 fore it was time to add the sweep port sills. The instructions reference either doing this prior to raising the frames (which requires a lot of precision in building and raising the frames) or doing it once the frames were raised (which probably is a little trickier to get a clean score and a level port). Considering my current set of skills I chose the later. I'm adding spacers as I go to provider support and allow for clamping (It was trickier to find space to clamp the second frame after the first was up).

The I had to consider how to transfer some marks to the frames to indicate where to file away. I ended up clamping a wood batten perpendicular to the square that would reach into the space between the frames and allow me to (hopefully) accurately mark out heights for the sills. I'm not certain that I needed the bottom line for the sill, but decided to at least do the first set with it.

 

I carefully, and very slowly, used a triangle file to notch in the angled score. I also found that I don't have anywhere near the appropriate light levels in my garage for this work, but since it wasn't too messy I felt safe bringing the building board inside to work (and I was the only one at home 🤫).

I found the top angled score much easier to accomplish and then tweak for alignment compared to the lower birdsmouth score, but in the end I think it all worked out. I used a disc sander for the edges on the sills and quickly discovered that I'd like to upgrade that to a Byrnes sander - or I need some angle gauges and some better jigs to evenly run the edges of strips through. 

Wow, I can't believe that little sill took me the entire morning. Now on to the other side and see if I can do a better job on the scores.

[glbarlow]

Really meticulous work, impressive patience required I’m sure!

[dvm27]

Those mortises are very difficult to cut at first. Accurate layout with a height gage is essential. If the joint looks a little sloppy after the sills are installed a little white glue applied over the joint then light sanding will make a perfect joint

[druxey]

Mark-out is also critical. The finest pencil line possible helps a lot. A regular HB pencil doesn't cut it; use a mechanical clutch pencil with 2mm leads of 3H or 4H grade. in the purpose made sharpener. These give a really fine line. Then you can cut with confidence without wondering whether to aim for the which of the edges or middle of the line!

[VTHokiEE]

Thanks @druxey , I’m learning a lot on this build (the last frames I built were much better than the first ones). Marking out is certainly critical - I’ve tried a “finer” pencil frequently sharpened but I plan to switch to a mechanical pencil (or lead holder as I’m finding them sometimes called). 
 

Thanks for everyone’s advice, likes and comments - they are helping me get through it (and help me improve as I go).

[druxey]

You are doing really well already. These are fine points (pun intended).

[VTHokiEE]

Chugging along slowly raising frames and currently working on the port sills. This was (and is) a slow process and I'm only 1/4 on the way through (as a plus I learned how to use this machinist parallel clamp that I picked up awhile ago and never figured out). I've been marking out the locations for the scores, creating a straight score (with saw or knife), and then filing out the score. I shaped the plank using my disc sander but the sides aren't perfect so I may consider using a different method (maybe my mill, but I don't have a precise way to set the angle yet so maybe not) for the top sills.

A note for my future self: When I was building the frames I left more meat on the later frames compared to the earlier frames and I somewhat wish I had done that for the earlier frames. Whatever my next scratch project involves I plan to leave a more meat on all the frames - live and learn (or do and learn maybe?).

[Old Collingwood]

Excellent work mate   -   those  frames  look  like  such  delicate  work  - really nice.

 

OC.

[No Idea]

3 minutes ago, Old Collingwood said:

Excellent work mate   -   those  frames  look  like  such  delicate  work  - really nice.

 

OC.

 

I have to agree that is really lovely delicate work - I would be very happy with that if that was my work.  Keep the updates coming!

[druxey]

Sills are probably the trickiest part of framing, except perhaps for cant frames. Gettigng the scores just so and the sill the exact length is a test of patience.