Taper of the keel, stem, knee of the head and stern post

[allanyed]

Other than the kits designed by Chuck Passaro, do any other kits address the large amount of tapering of the subject parts?   This seems to be very basic design criteria as the dimensions are detailed on the various scantlings sources including the Establishments, Steel, et al. and are significant.  For example the stem tapers about 30% from top to bottom at the keel and the knee of head tapers more than a very noticeable 50% fore and aft from where it meets the stem to the place for the figurehead.    Why is this shaping not done on the parts in other kits, or, at least described in the instructions so the builder can do it themselves if it is a cost factor?   

Allan

Edited May 14, 2023 by allanyed

[James H]

To be bluntly honest, I don't really think most kit builders would really care about stuff like this.

 

Maybe as 'some' modellers progress down a more serious route, would they contemplate details such as tapering of those areas. 

 

I would think that most kit modellers wouldn't want to progress down that route and are happy to build very respectable finished projects without the sort of things that only a purist would look at.

[Beef Wellington]

Good question Allan.  James is probably spot on that for many kit makers it would be an unnecessary complication and would not be a big deal for most modelers, so it is understandably omitted.  What is a little more surprising is that some of the more complex (i.e. expensive) POF kits (e.g. CAF Grenado, Bellona) do not seem to account for this in what would otherwise seem to be very comprehensive and well laid out kits.  Its a small detail, but one that makes for a more pleasing model.

[chris watton]

 

I did add this on Indy, but really it's only for those who really know what they're doing, and added for completion's sake. But Jim is correct, for those 99.9% of those building from kits, this is no big issue -a and for those 0.01% that want to, can by all means add the taper, ensuring that it does now mess up the figurehead slot.

 

ETA - Added a pic from my Amati Victory manual I did a decade ago, showing the taper to the rudder designing into the copper PE - so adding taper is by no means a new thing.

Edited May 15, 2023 by chris watton

[allanyed]

2 hours ago, James H said:

To be bluntly honest, I don't really think most kit builders would really care about stuff like this.

Hi James

I would go further and bet that most builders are not aware of this design feature that existed on most ships, so whether they would care or not really cannot be determined with any degree of confidence unless polled. 

 

Maybe my poor wording in the first post so my apologies, but my question is why these basic design features are ignored, not how many people would or would not find it important.   

 

Hi Chris,  Kudos for showing this on Indy!!!  Great to see another little extra on what are already exceptional kits.

 

Cheers,

Allan

Edited May 14, 2023 by allanyed

[Gregory]

7 minutes ago, allanyed said:

but my question is why these basic design features are ignored

Because it would up the cost of production in a kit, just to include useful information or detail that is going to be ignored by the builder.

Most kit builders are not as detail conscious  as the members at MSW, and kit manufacturers are not going to go to extra expense to include those details.

 

The guys who really care are the members here, and they can count on guys like you for information to take their build to the next level.😁

[glbarlow]

It really takes very little effort to add that taper to both the stem and rudder, as long as you don’t get carried away on models not necessarily designed for it. It does make a pleasing difference with only the slightly bit of sanding. An advanced modeler would know this, a beginner likely wouldn’t care. 

[mtaylor]

I'll toss this in....   if you want to taper or any other bash in a kit, there's nothing stopping anyone.  If one is interested, they will do it.  If not interested, they won't.  For some of us, it's a passion, for others, it's just a hobby.  Both views are good in my opinion.

[Bob Cleek]

1 hour ago, mtaylor said:

For some of us, it's a passion, for others, it's just a hobby.  Both views are good in my opinion.

And for some of us, the passion is the hobby!    

[goatfarmer11]

May I add as a new model builder I was not even aware of these tapers.  Now that I am I may feel compelled to include them to some degree.  This is why I joined this forum, so I could learn about the details that can make a good model a great model.

[allanyed]

9 hours ago, goatfarmer11 said:

May I add as a new model builder I was not even aware of these tapers. 

Denis,

You have made the point very well.   Most modelers, including many MSW members, are not aware of these kinds of things and assume every kit is accurate and as most of us have learned over the years "assuming" anything  in life is fraught with danger.  There are many Establishments, contemporary plans, models, contracts,  as well as books based on contemporary sources to learn about many of these kinds of details.   With the information in hand the model builder can decide if she/he wants to go the extra steps or not.  

Allan

Edited May 15, 2023 by allanyed

[DaveBaxt]

Now that I am aware of this ,I would like to incorporate this into my current build but fear I am now too late for the stem as it is already fitted to the model. The others it is perfect timing so thank you Allan for bringing this to our attention.

[wefalck]

It would be easy to include this as optional instruction into any kit-manual. There is a risk, however, that people less dexterous with sanding blocks screw this up and then blame the kit manufacturer.

 

Providing such taper on kit-supplied materials would be rather costly and impractical.

[allanyed]

5 hours ago, wefalck said:

It would be easy to include this as optional instruction into any kit-manual.

All of what you wrote makes a lot of sense Eberhard, but including the information at least gives the builder a choice of adding some realism or not.  Will they succeed? Who knows, but nothing ventured, nothing gained. 😀  If nothing else it can add some new knowledge even for those that feel such details are  unachievable or not worth the effort.

Allan

 

[dvm27]

I think this would be a simple detail to add. After all don't most kits require shaping the mid/keel section to a bearding line? But the problem I foresee is that the tapering goes across the part of the stem where the figurehead sits and any reduction of this area would lead to a loose fit of the figurehead.

[allanyed]

Great point Greg.  But, if the figurehead is filled in between the legs a little, it will help it from looking like it is riding a horse.😀

 

 

[dafi]

As being a producer myself I would like to add and confirm some of the reasons said before:

1 - Keep it simple enough to give the unexperienced modeler a real chance of success.

2 - Do not tempt them too much. If it is said "for experienced modeler only" I would guess that most starters feel immediately a bit of hubris and will get into a venture that might them lead into failure.

3 - Good modelers know anyway where to "pimp" 🙂

 

Something I learnt from the De Agostini Victory build: Almost all of the modelers that finished the build were the ones, that followed the basic instructions without too much or no pimping. Almost all that wanted to "improve" the kit failed. And those are unfortunately the ones with the loudest voice in the social media ...

 

XXXDAn

Edited May 23, 2023 by dafi

[Chuck]

In this case I agree with Allan 100%.  Its not hard to sand in a taper or design a taper into your kit.  The only reason why builders are unaware of this detail is because few if any have kit designers have bothered to include it or explain it in their instructions for the last 50 years.  Maybe they didnt know either.  It literally takes ten minutes to taper a stem.  Its important for this reason below.
 

The larger issue which hasnt been mentioned (to my surprise) is this.  That in most models with a figurehead of a human,  if there is no taper to the stem then the figurehead must be designed too wide.  This makes the figure appear squat and fat rather than correctly proportioned. In some cases ridiculously  so.

 

A tapered stem allows for a properly proportioned figure that doesnt look like a cartoon.  If a kit was designed with a poor figurehead that looks out of proportion then no amount of tapering after the fact will make it look decent.  
 

I see this all the time with the kits from Asia.  So adding the taper after the fact would not help and may even make the poor design decision worse.  It takes about ten minutes to properly taper a stem.  
 

On my projects if you dont do this, the properly proportioned figurehead wont fit.  
 

had I not tapered the stem on the winnie, the figure would look like a fat squat cartoon character.  Same with the Speedwell.  Or the legs would be so thin they would look awful.

 

Contemporary examples.  This has nothing to do with not caring about these fine details.  It has everything to do with making a figurehead look proper.  Especially when its a human figurehead.

 

For this last image on Speedwell the stem is 3/8” thick and tapers to around 5/32”.  A rather large taper.  Thats just the way it was done back then.  The figurehead would look ridiculous if the stem wasnt tapered and I designed it to fit that 3/8” wide gap between the legs.  It would look like he was riding a horse at best. With a huge torso to span that width to match.  And no amount of tapering after the fact would ever make it look good.

 

 

chuck

[allanyed]

4 hours ago, Chuck said:

The only reason why builders are unaware of this detail is because few if any kit designers have bothered to include it or explain it in their instructions for the last 50 years.  Maybe they didnt know either.  

 

Well thought out comments throughout Chuck, thank you very much for posting this.   

Allan