Lula by Keith Black - 1:120 Scale - 1870s Sternwheeler Supply Boat for Floating Pile Driver

[Keith Black]

Now that the pile driver is nearing completion it's time to turn my attention to a supply boat.

 

 When I came across this image of Lula I immediately feel in love with her rough looks and diminutive stature. Lula as pictured is a chain driven, internal combustion engined ferry. The trick is turning Lula into a steam powered support boat which means putting the boiler where the Model A's are parked with the the steam engine below the wheelhouse.

 

 Long ago when I first envisioned the pile driver and the support boat in my minds eye I saw a single stack boiler for the support boat. I know very very little about paddle steamers though I've been doing a lot of research here on MSW and Google on the subject. Having said that I'm going to be asking some very newbe questions so please bear with me. if in the course of this build, if any of you think I need to be corrected on something, please do not hesitate to bring the matter to my attention. I have a ton of learning ahead of me but with your help I'm certain we'll get there. 

 

 My first question, how much viewing obstruction is there with a single stack ahead of a wheelhouse? Is my vision practical? 

 

  Thank you.

 

    Keith

 

 

Edited October 20 by ccoyle
correctly formatted log title 2x

[Knocklouder]

In for the journey,   Good luck 

Bob  M.

And crew!!

[Glen McGuire]

Looking forward to this one, Keith!  Don't count on me for any help with the knowledge part, but I will cheer you on the whole way!  

[gjdale]

I’m in for the ride as well Keith, but I’m right up there with Glen on the knowledge stakes!

[Jsk]

Hi Keith,

 

Lulu's a very quaint little vessel. But wouldn't a boiler in the place of the Model A take up most of the cargo space?

[Cathead]

Even though we've discussed this prototype before, the single-stack forward question hadn't registered in my mind until now. It would definitely be a bit of a view block, though fair question is how much and does it really matter. I don't have a lot of time to descend rabbit holes right now, but in a semi-brief search through resources and imagery I confirmed that the predominant location of a single stack was behind the pilothouse, as in this very attractive example of the Suzie Hazard (UW La Crosse collection) :

But I was also able to find a variety of steam ferries with single stacks right in front of the pilothouse.

 

The New Era, from this steamboats.com article. One interesting detail here that you could choose to replicate: look closely at the pilothouse and you'll see that the wheel appears to be offset to the starboard side, allowing a clear view forward.  

And I found several Missouri River examples, which excited me. Here's Dorothy, built in Boonville (not far from me) from the UW La Crosse collection:

And here she is renamed as Helen and somewhat altered, but the same vessel (from the UW La Crosse collection) :

And another Missouri River example, the Henry Wohlt out of Hermann (also from the UW La Crosse collection) :

None of these are quite what you're envisioning, with the boilers and stack well forward with more separation from the pilothouse. But they do give you some justification for saying that, at least in a few cases, builders and pilots were ok with that view block being forward. So I think you could go for it.

 

I won't be able to give this build much attention for a few weeks, which makes me sad, but hopefully others can help out as well with ideas and input. This will be so fun to watch come together!

 

EDITED later to remove the $@%! emojis MSW insisted on auto-adding whenever there was a colon after a ). I did not intend to convey a sad face after every steamboat listing. 

Edited October 19 by Cathead

[Canute]

I'll be following along, too. Don't know how much tech I can provide, but I will be aiding in the peanut gallery, urging you along.😄

[Ian_Grant]

Hard to tell from the nice photos, but are the stacks always centred on the keel line?

 

I have no knowledge on this topic either, by the way.

Edited October 19 by Ian_Grant

[FriedClams]

 

17 hours ago, Keith Black said:

When I came across this image of Lula I immediately feel in love with her rough looks and diminutive stature.

 

Me too - charming.  I learned from model railroaders years ago how important a quirky roof structure is to an appealing model because they are most often viewed from a bird's-eye perspective.  With Lula's quirky structures, interesting horizontal surface shapes, paddle wheel, staircase, railings, cables, bell, etc. - this floating supply boat has it all and is simply dripping with character!  Take your time and enjoy every minute modeling this intriguing little craft. 

 

The option Eric offered in the posted photo of the New Era, I feel is a good one.  Having the stack positioned at one corner of the pilot house while the ship's wheel is slid over toward the opposite corner seems an interesting possibility.

 

Best of luck on this new project, Keith.

 

Gary    

[Cathead]

Ian and Gary, in every photo I posted, the single stacks are centered. This makes sense to me as otherwise you have a serious offset weight that would destabilize the vessel.

[Keith Black]

 

 Thank you to everyone for the likes for this new project. 

 

18 hours ago, Knocklouder said:

In for the journey,   Good luck 

 Thank you, Bob. 

 

17 hours ago, Glen McGuire said:

Looking forward to this one, Keith!  Don't count on me for any help with the knowledge part, but I will cheer you on the whole way!  

 Thank you, Glen.

 

11 hours ago, gjdale said:

I’m in for the ride as well Keith, but I’m right up there with Glen on the knowledge stakes!

 Thank you, Grant.

 

9 hours ago, Jsk said:

Lulu's a very quaint little vessel. But wouldn't a boiler in the place of the Model A take up most of the cargo space?

 Thank you, Jeff. The plan that rattles around in my head has cargo space forward of the boiler. Because Lula supplied pile drivers she didn't require a large cargo area. Most importantly would have been a water tank to top off the boiler water tanks on the pile driver barges. I'm somewhat loathe to bring this up as it requires more work  but I'm pretty sure the supply boats would have been pushing a barge of piling from driver to driver. 

 

6 hours ago, Cathead said:

Even though we've discussed this prototype before, the single-stack forward question hadn't registered in my mind until now. It would definitely be a bit of a view block, though fair question is how much and does it really matter. I don't have a lot of time to descend rabbit holes right now, but in a semi-brief search through resources and imagery I confirmed that the predominant location of a single stack was behind the pilothouse, as in this very attractive example of the Suzie Hazard (UW La Crosse collection) :

 

6 hours ago, Cathead said:

But I was also able to find a variety of steam ferries with single stacks right in front of the pilothouse.

 

The New Era, from this steamboats.com article. One interesting detail here that you could choose to replicate: look closely at the pilothouse and you'll see that the wheel appears to be offset to the starboard side, allowing a clear view forward.  

 

6 hours ago, Cathead said:

None of these are quite what you're envisioning, with the boilers and stack well forward with more separation from the pilothouse. But they do give you some justification for saying that, at least in a few cases, builders and pilots were ok with that view block being forward. So I think you could go for it.

 

I won't be able to give this build much attention for a few weeks, which makes me sad, but hopefully others can help out as well with ideas and input. This will be so fun to watch come together!

 Eric, I can't thank you enough for taking the time to provide the invaluable photos. Having the stack or pilothouse/ship's wheel offset may not be the plan I first envisioned but it certainly provides a clean easy solution.  No worries as to not being here for a couple of weeks as it's going to take me that long to get my act together. 

 

4 hours ago, Canute said:

I'll be following along, too. Don't know how much tech I can provide, but I will be aiding in the peanut gallery, urging you along.😄

 Thank you, Ken. 

 

3 hours ago, Ian_Grant said:

Hard to tell from the nice photos, but are the stacks always centred on the keel line?

 

I have no knowledge on this topic either, by the way.

 Thank you for coming aboard, Ian. I think it was a matter of distributing the weight of the boiler along the keel thus determining the stack location. What I need to research was it possible/practical to offset the boiler stack. Lula having an offset stack would be another neat little quirk. 

 

2 hours ago, FriedClams said:

Me too - charming.  I learned from model railroaders years ago how important a quirky roof structure is to an appealing model because they are most often viewed from a bird's-eye perspective.  With Lula's quirky structures, interesting horizontal surface shapes, paddle wheel, staircase, railings, cables, bell, etc. - this floating supply boat has it all and is simply dripping with character!  Take your time and enjoy every minute modeling this intriguing little craft. 

 

The option Eric offered in the posted photo of the New Era, I feel is a good one.  Having the stack positioned at one corner of the pilot house while the ship's wheel is slid over toward the opposite corner seems an interesting possibility.

 

Best of luck on this new project, Keith.

 

 Thank you, Gary. I'm glad you like Lula, she looks like something you'd take a fancy to in one of your projects. Yes, the New Era option is that which I'll explore first. 

 

 

Thank you to everyone who has signed on to follow Lula's journey.

 

  Keith

[Keith Black]

52 minutes ago, Cathead said:

Ian and Gary, in every photo I posted, the single stacks are centered. This makes sense to me as otherwise you have a serious offset weight that would destabilize the vessel.

Absolutely, Eric. These were some fairly narrow vessels to begin with. 

[Cathead]

Yes, if it were up to me, and no other evidence surfaces to show otherwise, I would definitely not offset the stack to either side. The New Era's stack is centered, it's just an optical illusion of the photo's perspective and the vessel's design that makes it look off-center.
 

Though you could always decide it's a distant ancestor of the German BV141, definitely one of the more mind-bending aircraft I've ever seen with its offset cockpit and fuselage. My understanding is that it actually flew quite well but was just too weird to be taken seriously.

 

Edited October 19 by Cathead

[mtaylor]

I'm in too.... brought the popcorn machine..  

[Jim Lad]

The classic Clyde puffers also had their funnel in front of the wheelhouse.

 

John

 

[GrandpaPhil]

This is going to be a neat and fun build!  Looking forward to it!

 

Mark,

  Count me in on that popcorn, I’ll bring the sliced Serrano peppers to add for flavoring (Serrano’s and jalapeño peppers go really well in fresh popcorn like that).

Edited October 20 by GrandpaPhil

[Keith Black]

On 10/19/2024 at 3:31 PM, Cathead said:

Yes, if it were up to me, and no other evidence surfaces to show otherwise, I would definitely not offset the stack to either side. The New Era's stack is centered, it's just an optical illusion of the photo's perspective and the vessel's design that makes it look off-center.
 

Though you could always decide it's a distant ancestor of the German BV141, definitely one of the more mind-bending aircraft I've ever seen with its offset cockpit and fuselage. My understanding is that it actually flew quite well but was just too weird to be taken seriously.

 Thank you, Eric. After looking more closely I see that The New Era's stack is centered. I researched boiler stack offsets, offsets require being cleaned out more often and are less efficient. Lula's boiler will be run center keel so the stack will be centered. I will try offsetting the ship's wheel and place the boiler more forward than first planned. The open question is whether the firebox is forward or aft. 

 

 

On 10/19/2024 at 5:41 PM, mtaylor said:

I'm in too.... brought the popcorn machine..  

 Thank you, Mark. Popcorn is always a welcome treat.

 

 

On 10/19/2024 at 8:12 PM, Jim Lad said:

The classic Clyde puffers also had their funnel in front of the wheelhouse.

 Thank you, John. It seems there were numerous examples where the stack was forward of the pilothouse. In your example the stack is extremely close to the pilothouse. My question is, is that an advantage?

 

 

3 hours ago, GrandpaPhil said:

This is going to be a neat and fun build!  Looking forward to it!

 

Mark,

  Count me in on that popcorn, I’ll bring the sliced Serrano peppers to add for flavoring (Serrano’s and jalapeño peppers go really well in fresh popcorn like that).

 Thank you, Phil. Though I think you just ruined Mark's popcorn. 

 

 

 Thank you to everyone for the likes for supporting my Lula build.

 

  keith

[BANYAN]

Late to the party again  - hope there's some popcorn left Keith.  This looks being a very entertaining and fulfilling (for you) project mater.  I'll be following along with great interest.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[Jim Lad]

Keith, I can't see any advantage whatsoever in having the funnel in front of the wheelhouse, but obviously a lot of ship designers thought it a good idea.

 

John

[Keith Black]

15 hours ago, BANYAN said:

Late to the party again  - hope there's some popcorn left Keith.  This looks being a very entertaining and fulfilling (for you) project mater.  I'll be following along with great interest.

 

 Thank you Pat for looking in. You're not late by any means, I'm still trying to find with both hands. 

 

9 hours ago, Jim Lad said:

Keith, I can't see any advantage whatsoever in having the funnel in front of the wheelhouse, but obviously a lot of ship designers thought it a good idea.

 John, I know so little about these vessels. It's going to take me awhile to get a grasp of the why of things.

[TBlack]

Something to do with where the boiler has to be?

[mtaylor]

I tend to agree with Tom but also perhaps is was so the pilot/crew could keep an eye out for a chimney fire?

[Jim Lad]

My take on it would be that if it was necessary to place the funnel in front of the wheelhouse in order for the OOW to see a funnel fire, then it was time to replace the OOW! 🤔

 

John

[Keith Black]

 I currently know so little (I stress the word little) about sternwheelers. I'm trying to do at least an hour's worth of research a day or more if I have the time. I suppose I could try and stupid build Lula but that seems like a recipe for disaster plus it doesn't make me a bit smarter and runs counter to the NRG motto.

 

 I plan on the boiler being somewhat exposed and I assume boilers were specific to the type of steam engine they were powering. Lula was an inlet vessel,  not a river boat. How different were the engines on a inlet craft verses a river craft? The type of engine available during the mid 1870's that a small operator could afford? I need to know the engine size for accurate engine room dimensions.  Engine and boiler size will be a determining factor in Lula's overall length. 

 

 I'm getting there with the help of Mr Google. He's very smart, the trick is asking the correct question. 

 

 

[Keith Black]

 A week in and all I have to show for myself is words, certainly no wood, not even pencil to paper.  

 

 Going through Eric's Peerless build last night a realization took me by surprise. In the floating pile driver build we discussed the necessity for Lula to provide boiler water. The thought that hit me was, Lula also needed freshwater for her boiler! She wouldn't have been able to pull freshwater from the Hudson till 153 miles up river near Troy. This means Lula would have required a water tank large enough to supply her needs as well as the needs of the various pile drivers she would have catered to. I envision the need for a huge water tank. How large and where would it have been placed? I swear, the more I research the more questions I have. Freshwater requirements may well be a game changer. 

[BANYAN]

Hi Keith, WRT boiler water - standard ol' fresh water would not cut the mustard.  The water has to be of a particular purity to prevent the build up of scale etc etc, so more likely she will have had a donkey boiler or evaporator of some type to produce this (for both boilers) - but she will still have had to have sufficient storage for it.

 

Your project is coming along very nicely and I'm enjoying the journey.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[wefalck]

Late arrival as well, didn’t realise there was a new thread …

I would venture the guess that boats like that would have had locomotive-type boilers. These are relatively self contained and wouldn’t require massive foundations.

 

A wheelhouse above the boiler may have certain risks (boiler explosions were not uncommon, due to poor maintenance), but would be cosy in winter. The smoke-stacks, if not double-walled would not obstruct the view too much. 

[Keith Black]

 Thank you to everyone for the likes and for following along. 

 

 

17 hours ago, BANYAN said:

Hi Keith, WRT boiler water - standard ol' fresh water would not cut the mustard.  The water has to be of a particular purity to prevent the build up of scale etc etc, so more likely she will have had a donkey boiler or evaporator of some type to produce this (for both boilers) - but she will still have had to have sufficient storage for it.

 

Your project is coming along very nicely and I'm enjoying the journey.

 

 Thank you, Pat. I'm assuming that the supply boats would have taken on water fit for boiler use at one of the piers in the New York harbor area. In a modest 10,500 (20' x 35' x 2')  gallon water tank, the water alone would have weighed almost 44 tons. I say modest because the supply boat needed water for her boiler plus the daily water needs for the pile drivers she would have supported. When researching floating pile drivers I had determined that water fit for boiler use and the water's weight was the most critical element in the dock building scheme. Researching supply boats has only emphasized my thoughts on the water issue. Is that much water weight plus all the other weight (boiler, coal, stem engine, and empty build weight) have been doable on a sternwheeler with hull proportions of 25' x 100'? If someone says "absolutely" I'm ready to move forward. 

 

 

5 hours ago, wefalck said:

Late arrival as well, didn’t realise there was a new thread …

I would venture the guess that boats like that would have had locomotive-type boilers. These are relatively self contained and wouldn’t require massive foundations.

 

A wheelhouse above the boiler may have certain risks (boiler explosions were not uncommon, due to poor maintenance), but would be cosy in winter. The smoke-stacks, if not double-walled would not obstruct the view too much. 

 Thank you and welcome, Eberhard. I envisioned the wheelhouse being above the steam engine with the boiler forward of both. Thank you for suggesting the boiler type. All insights are most welcome.

 

 Thank you to everyone for the support.

 

   Keith 

[bdgiantman2]

Your stern-wheeler looks about 50ft to 60ft length.  I tried to include a picture from another site of a slightly longer boat with bridge in front but wouldn't let me include the link.  The side view provided gives good details for the main deck. Can still have car riding in middle of boat. Also I was just noticing that the paddle in first picture is a chain drive and not steam powered although there probably was some kind of a small boiler under bridge. Interesting projects that you are working on, keep it up. 

 

 

Found these as other ideas for you: 

https://cmdboats.com/plan/River Belle 40

https://www.oldoregonphotos.com/small-sternwheeler-restless-near-gardiner-c-1895.html

 

Brian D

Edited October 26 by bdgiantman2

[Keith Black]

38 minutes ago, bdgiantman2 said:

Your stern-wheeler looks about 50ft to 60ft length.  I tried to include a picture from another site of a slightly longer boat with bridge in front but wouldn't let me include the link.  The side view provided gives good details for the main deck. Can still have car riding in middle of boat. Also I was just noticing that the paddle in first picture is a chain drive and not steam powered although there probably was some kind of a small boiler under bridge. Interesting projects that you are working on, keep it up. 

 Thank you for looking in, Brian. I'm using the 1930's Lula the ferry in the photo as only a reference image for what I want Lula the 1870's supply boat to look like. Obviously there won't be Model A's on deck, where the cars are parked is where the boiler will be. Lula the supply boat will be steam powered so the chain drive disappears. Due to the need for power and space Lula the supply boat gets lengthened to approximately a 100 feet.