HM Cutter Cheerful 1806 by Chuck - FINISHED - 1:48 scale - kit prototype

[GLakie]

The tackle looks great Chuck and I really like how nice the rope-coils hang on the pins. 

[Canute]

Chuck, your rope coils drape just like the full size stuff. And the carronades look great.

[usedtosail]

I agree - those hanging rope coils look very realistic. The carronade rigging looks great too. I am at the same stage on the Conyy - i wish I only had 5 more to do - wait I only have 4 more to do. I will be glad to get past it.

[michael mott]

Chuck the hanging coils look great, I am curious about the coils on the floor the rope looks odd stacked vertically like that, would it not fall beside itself either in or outside the first coil?

 

Michael

[Chuck]

It depends on what your going for....Take a look at these rope coils.  Odd yes but pretty typical on contemporary models.    I have looked at a whole bunch and these will be easy enough to swap out....should I go relaxed or should I go contemporary???  I am still pondering.  I am trying to experiment and then choose after doing some pretty serious study of contemporary examples.   Rope coils for me are a challenge.  But I am trying hard to give this model some of that old-time contemporary feel.   Having said that....the relaxed coils on the pin rails do look good to me and would be very different if I was going to stick with these contemporary stylings.

 

I know modern rope bends and flexes but maybe the old rope in those days was much more stiff,  hence the look of these contemporary rope coils.  So many contemporary models have them its hard to ignore.  Click on that last image and really take a look at them.  Its very different than the natural coil I have hanging on the pin rail.  Which is more correct???  I have no idea.   I will go with one or the other after living with it for a while.

 

 

 

 

 

If you have Grant Walkers new book on the Rogers Collection,  I urge you to flip through it and see how the rope coils look on some of those models.  There are some fantastic close-up images in that book in addition to these which I got from our gallery and my own collection.   I believe these are mostly contemporary but some of the Rogers stuff was rigged buy Culvers I think...back in the 20's.   He was masterful.  I have dozens more that look just like these.  Go figure.  

 

So...relaxed coils or structured coils.

 

Chuck

[GuntherMT]

Hemp rope is indeed very stiff when compared to modern 'soft' ropes, but I think that the perfect circular coils on the models of that era is probably more due to how the material used at scale coiled rather than how it might have looked on the real ships of the era.

 

Hemp rope is stiff enough that it would probably coil on the deck in a nice circle, but not of a single strand thickness, rather probably 3-4 rope strands thickness could maintain a shape while stacking vertically.

 

As for the hanging coils, the hemp probably wouldn't fall into the coils like I did on my AVS without being wrapped in the center, but I don't think they would be nearly the perfect circle that you see in those photo's of the models either.  Likely they would have been closer to your coils unless they were coiled very tightly (i.e. small coils).

 

I also imagine that the diameter of the line would have a pretty significant effect on how the rope coiled, but I'm not sure how much the greater weight would offset the stiffness of the larger diameter.  And then you have the question of how much of it was coiled wet, which would also effect how it coiled!

[Chuck]

The lines I have hanging are in much larger coils and may hang more naturally...I have images of hemp rope on ships looking like that.  BUT having said that...rope coils made on deck and meant to be kept neat....well that may be different and why I thought to make them tighter and more circular.

 

Take a look at this.  This is actually a training session in Maine on board a sailing ship.  I believe they may have been handled differently but I agree the old rope may have been very stiff indeed.  But who knows in the end.   The only real way to make the coils on deck more natural would be to make them very sloppy as if a drunken sailor made them.  If they coiled them like this fella it looks pretty plausible.   And pretty easy to make a good circle of coils.  I imagine the sailors got quite good at it very quickly.

 

 

vs. hanging

 

 

and my interpretation for comparison...

 

 

Chuck

[Engelmann]

Hi Chuck

 

I like the way that you did the ropes. Coil those on the deck but keep the ones hanging natural exactly like you have them.

Maybe relax the coiled ones on the deck slightly so that they look more like the third picture of the contempory models, your's is maybe a bit to perfect

 

Cheers

 

Deon

[lionfish]

one thing that comes to mind is deck conditions, i would imagine that coiled rope on the deck would roll and move, especially if the ship was in heavy seas. hanging would seam logical for busy ships or rough weather, or anything other than at port or a special occasion. then again, its up to our own interpretation 

[Stockholm tar]

Ropes on deck at sea are not usually feasible. To begin with, in any rough weather and has been mentioned, lines adjacent to each other would get tangled together, which is not a good idea, and there is the fact that they could potentially cause accidents, tripping etc. Then there is the damp problem. A wet rope on deck hold moisture far longer than one hung up and even modern ropes will disintegrate eventually through rot. 

 

The only real place for running rigging is for it to be belayed on its designated pin. From my own experience, the only time I have seen a large part of the 'spagetti' on deck is when the ship is tacking, wearing, or carrying out some other sail evolution. At most other times, the lines are coiled and tidily hung from their pins out of the way and ready for use

 

Regarding the coils themselves, they are normally coiled on deck in an oval shape to begin with, and even hemp ones will sag under their own weight.  Chuck, the coil in your first photo seems very small and not the normal size for most running rigging. Perhaps it was for some special purpose?

 

To me, the coils shown on the models seem not to reflect the way things were done at sea, where all the above would apply, but rather perhaps a modelmakers convention. At that scale, perhaps they couldn't all be belayed in their proper places.

[Engelmann]

Agreed Kester, but unless Chuck add deployed sails, these ships are normally not depicted as being at sea.

[_SalD_]

Chuck, all I can say is your coils good great and if you ever decide to market them at Syren please let me know I'll be first in line.  For the life of me I can't make a decent rope coil.

[Stockholm tar]

Endless,

 

I agree, they are not and this is sometimes how such models are displayed – although there are many other such models with the rigging belayed to pins. In reality even in port with the sails furled, the rigging would normally still be belayed to its pin.

[Chuck]

I am not sure I agree with you Kester.   But I do think that is what makes the hobby interesting.   For now the coils will stay as is.  I think they look head over over heels better than most other attempts I have seen and I can live with them.  There is always the next model too!!!     I have never seen so much scrutiny on rope coils.  

 

I am just glad they came out neatly.   Most times I see them modeled they look like they been smashed together from over handling and too much glue.   Just getting a clean coil for a change is a welcome thing.  

 

Chuck

[barryww]

Yep. They all look good to me. I think they look great in perfect pristine condition as they match the condition of the ship itself. If one was going to weather the ship, then something else would be in order. But I like it all as is.

[dvm27]

They look great, Chuck. I think one of the hardest things to do is create realistic looking rope, along with it's natural tendency to drape properly. It's most likely a scaling issue I believe. Oddly enough, it seems in order to achieve a realistic catenary, like the gentle drooping of the stays, a wire core seems to work best (at small scales). Many of the models in Annapolis show this graceful catenary but most of them were rigged with silk, a material which naturally drapes over time.

[michael mott]

Chuck, thanks for your response, and for all the rest regarding my question. If the coils are to be left on deck I would suspect from a purely practical point of view, it would be a short term thing. Your photograph of the modern rope coil appears much more natural in the same manner that those in your third picture appear. Gravity would have a pretty quick effect on a moving deck and the coils would most likely slump a little most probably to one side.

 

Your thoughts about old time contemporary feel make sense, Conventions are always interesting in my view "we've always done it that way" the implication of course, why change?

 

It's most likely a scaling issue I believe. Oddly enough, it seems in order to achieve a realistic catenary, like the gentle drooping of the stays, a wire core seems to work best

 Greg you raise a good point

Many years ago I built a model for a court case in which the client won, it was of an electrical power line set up that during a storm caused a fire and destroyed a business, the city was sued for negligence. The only way I could accurately depict the catenary curves of the hanging cables was to use extremely fine HO model chain for all the wires.

 

Finally Chuck in your own picture the coil on the extreme left looks the most convincing to me.

 

Cheers Michael 

Edited March 15, 2016 by michael mott

[tkay11]

I am travelling at the moment and on very dodgy connections, so cannot access my usual resources, but I remember a lengthy discussion about this on MSW1. At that time mention was made of the practice off frapping the ropes round the gun tackles, except on the occasions in the Navy when inspections were carried out. On those occasions the ropes were laid in coils on the deck. I don't think anyone has mentioned this idea on this thread so far, so thought I'd bring it up.

 

It's what I decided to do (in a very clumsy way) on my Sherbourne model.

 

Tony

[Chuck]

Thanks....for all the comments.

 

I am not a big fan of the frapping.  I also dislike the french coils on deck.   I prefer the simple coil on deck.   Hopefully I can get in the shop soon to start the other five guns.   Waiting on an electrician at the moment and then I will start back on making rope and blocks.   

 

 

Chuck

[Bart616]

Personally I think its more of a matter of what you think looks best verses what may or may not be historically correct.  At smaller scale, sometimes the way things are done in real life don't look very good.

 

I do know that when I was in the Navy, if we had to have ropes on the deck, we used Flemish coils because they are flat and were less of a tripping hazard. But I wasn't on a ship that had standing rigging and black powder cannons.    We did have a sail but no ropes were attached to it.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Bart616

[Chuck]

Rope coils take two......I hate waiting for repair guys to show up so in the spirit of trying all things to show folks different looks.  Here are some less then perfect deck coils.   Not too much difference but maybe enough to make it presentable.  

 

[Chuck]

Yes indeed its a pain....but I am happy with the overall appearance...better than most attempts.  Hopefully I can repeat the process for consistency.  

[Engelmann]

Bingo, you have aced it with take two 

[KenW]

Chuck - I really like your hanging coils, but have never been able to get them right.

So, do we get a tutorial on making proper hanging coils?

[Chuck]

Thanks Ken....maybe a future tech session at the club.  But there really isnt much to say.  Its done the same exact exact way that so many folks make them.

 

I just wrap the rope around a dowel.  I try and use the smallest amount of white glue...just on the top of the coil.   

 

Thats the real trick....try not to handle them too much and certainly less glue is better...watered down white glue.  Otherwise the rope gets mashed and you stick to it and pull fuzz up from it.  Keep your rope clean.  Less handling is key with clean fingers.

 

Then I take one of the hanging coils and wrap it around the top tightly to form the handle....so-to-speak.  Wrap it around the coil from the inside.   Twice around does the trick.

 

By the way,  none of the belaying pins are glued into position yet.  These coils are just temporary placed on top of them at this point...I will eventually just pull them off and store them in a box until rigging begins.

 

Also its just a great idea to experiment and make them well ahead of time.   You will need to use more than just one size.  Test them out before rigging begins.  Here are the five or six coils I will eventually hang on this rail.   You need to use thicker rope sometimes...how does it effect the rope its hanging next to?   How do you need to bend it so it hangs nicely in front of or in back of the coils next to it?  Should I vary the length of the coils a bit so its not to uniform?  Does it look too messy and hap-hazard?  These are the questions I am pondering at the moment.    I am just fumbling through it like everyone else.  The rails will fill up quickly and it gets harder to make them look natural.  Better to have a test run now rather than when you have all of that rigging.....shrouds....and backstays.....in the way.   Its just too frustrating then.  It becomes an after thought almost.  Because such a large grouping of rope on these pin rails becomes an important focal point...its a good idea to spend more time on it rater than wait. Otherwise it will detract from all of the other hard work you did.

 

Take a lot of photos of your test run from various angles as well.  Its a huge help.  I am still fussin....these close-up photos are brutal.  It often looks so much better just viewing the model first hand.  The naked eye can never see this level of detail as shown in the macro shots.

 

Chuck

 

 

 

[cog]

Great work Chuck. The only thing I would have expected, were slides instead of carriages for those caronades ...

 

Cheers

[Chuck]

Thanks!!  That is a common misconception with carronades.  Especially on revenue cutters.  Along with the notion that all revenue cutters were clinker planked.   You would be surprised how many variations there are.

[michael mott]

Chuck those last two shots look fantastic the ropes look very natural it look like you nailed it perfectly.

 

Michael

[kees de mol]

The ropes look very good. The cannons also.

[Nirvana]

Good evening Chuck,

I have just finalised reading through the whole topic of the Cheerful.

I must say..... I am blown away by the way you are working and making such a clean and amazing ship.

I do have a question reflecting back to block #490 where you are starting palnking the deck.

I see in the first picture you have laid 5 planks, all equally wide.... just wondered if I completely off but I thought even a cutter from this time era would have a kingplank (wider than the rest of the decking) running down the middle of the deck.

So sad I have so many other ship projects awaiting otherwise I would certainly have signed up for this one.

Oh, btw I liked the two videos with you. Now I have a face to the name.

Thank you very much for this tutorial where many areas can be applied to other ships as well.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Nirvana