Requesting feedback for future MSW Group Projects

[Chuck]

Just an announcement of sorts.  I wanted to let everyone know that after a bit of time gone by since we created a special project for our members, the NRG and the folks at MSW will be actively starting to bring you some new projects.  Funds have been set aside specifically to create a new group project which will be offered to our members.  This will be a project similar to Triton where plans will be made available after signing up for the project. 

 

These will probably not be huge fully framed first rates mind you.  Instead we are looking at smaller and quicker projects that will be fun to build in a short time period.  But we hope that the new projects will offer some elements that will allow the participants to try something new or build a model using a new approach etc.

 

We will of course make more info available when the time comes but I would like to ask for some feedback,

 

These projects should be of smaller interesting subjects not over done and widely available.....please do list some of your ideas....perhaps

 

 

-1/2" scale longboat project fully framed like in actual practice circa 1740 with rigging

-Smaller boats of a more modern flavor....early 20th century boats and racing yachts.  Plank on bulkhead perhaps

-Bow section or possibly stern section showing those details and some techniques for building them (headrails, stern carvings and stern lights etc.

-Your suggestions

 

Rather than just plans for download and only scratch type projects some might not have the tools for....perhaps your thoughts on

 

 

-Semi scratch group projects where framing kits may be made available or starter packages of sorts....for example maybe all of the framing components for a cross section or small period boat with the balance of the project being completed from scratch....after downloading a planset.  This would also deter theft of design like what happened with Triton.  This would of course come with a small fee as well.  Similar to my barge framework/Cheerful bulkhead set as a starter set. Your thoughts???? As not everyone has the tools to scratch build everything yet they may want to participate. 

 

 

 

In addition, we may be approaching some of you after seeing some of the fine models our membership have made.  We may contact you to see if your projects....with your help and guidance....can be translated into some fun group projects for all to enjoy.  Feel free to point out a few or even contact me directly via PM if you have a specific idea or ice boat design concept.....oh wait I am getting ahead of myself.  You get the idea....if you think a small craft project you are working on or someone you follow would make a great group project...feel free to contact me about via PM.  Or bow section or stern section or cross section....or whatever. 

 

But please no fully framed or large frigates or 74 gunners.  We want to make sure that not only you guys can start and finish them, but we will also need to be able to start and finish the designs and prototypes as well.  We dont want to wait ten years to bring them to you....lets keep them manageable.   Perhaps a small project on building a brodi stove....or double capstan???

 

Just dive right in with your ideas and contact me.

 

Chuck

[svein erik]

How about a stern section with all the fixtures in the cabin

 

Svein.erik

[Chuck]

We want to get a consensus so we shall see if any one topic/subject is preferred and we shall seek one out.  And dont forgetthe other question I asked.....shall we keep it as scratch projects only or offer some sort of starter package?

 

I love Michaels cutter project......perhaps. 

 

 

[alde]

Chuck, A San Francisco Bay Felluca is a pretty little work boat that might make a good subject. Some of them were painted with bright colors and have a simple rig.  Maybe a War or 1812 era gunboat would be a good subject too.

Edited June 14, 2018 by alde

[Chuck]

I have added a small poll to this topic.  Not about subject matter, but about the nature of the group project itself.  The subject matter is a whole different ball game.  I would love to design another one for the group.....but it would need to be something I have already started.  I am working on four new projects actually and only two of them are actually a good fit.  

 

I am developing a 1/2 scale long boat from 1742 fully framed like the barge with floors and toptimbers...fully rigged.

And the American Fishing Chebacco Lion as a plank on bulkhead entry level project.

 

So any other subject options we talk about here will be taken under consideration and we will try to match them up  with an individual who is willing to help create it.  

 

Having said that...if you know of anyone who would be willing to help author a new project (with guidance) or if you are willing to do so please contact me.  If we know what subjects you are most interested in that would help us match it up to a person who could create it.  Maybe I can create a list of subjects to add to the poll but I hate to dictate that....so you guys need to help me with it and I will create another poll with subject choices....by era or vessel type.  Remember.....please dont suggest we do a group project on the Wasa......think small and doable.

 

so far...

Gun boat

Long boat

Felluca

Fishing Chebacco

Stern sectional model

Anchor Hoy

 

 

In the meantime...please take the poll above to give us an idea about what type of group project you prefer.etc.  If you feel I have left off an important question related to this, please send me a PM about it.

[Jim Rogers]

USS Intrepid 1798 to complete our Syren, Connie fleets.

[Chuck]

That would be a little out of scope.  LOL     

 

It would be great to see though, but as most already know, any model of Intrepid would be purely speculation and fantasy.  Too much reconstruction and guesswork for my tastes when we have so many other well documented subjects to model accurately.

 

In order to produce a quality set of plans for a frigate or larger vessel you need to spend years......not something I am sure we can convince someone to do for us.  For example,  It took me years to develop and research the Winchelsea (and Syren which was our first group project I think) and produce a set of plans that are any good.  There are other sites that whip these out every six months but they hardly make for accurate projects that are buildable.   They are called "ten foot models"  in the industry.   Kits and model projects that only look good from about ten feet away when completed...LOL.   

 

Having said this though....the plans for the Winchelsea are in fact completed.   As some of you have been suggesting via PM. But I will never release my plans as a download again because next week you will see it for sale on Ebay and Alibaba.  So a project like the Winnie would absolutely require the purchase of a starter package and the bulkheads would NOT be shown on the plans.  But I would absolutely be open to entertaining the idea of making the Winnie a group project.  But within those parameters only.  Its something the NRG board would need to work out with me.

 

We have not started any new projects yet and have just laid the groundwork for them and set aside the funding.  So if you guys are itching for something sooner than later we are only talking about the two subjects that I have nearly completed and designed.  I was thinking you guys would want to build something else though.

 

The first is the Winnie (1/4" scale only) as mentioned and it would only be possible as a group project because its completely done and planned out already....the second is the new and improved Medway Longboat of 1742 in 1/2" scale.  The new version is based on an actual contemporary draft from that period and is much much better than my older generic longboat design at 1/4" scale.  It will hopefully look just like the contemporary model of it fully framed with floors and top timbers,etc.

 

So if you guys are willing to wait 12-18 months for something entirely new we can continue talking about it which will fill the pipeline for later.   If you guys are eager to start something now or in 3 or months or so......then we are pretty much limited to the two projects I personally developed and are almost ready for primetime.

 

Feel free to express your opinions about it here and let us know if you would be interested in either of these two or if you want to wait until we flesh something else out later because neither of these interest you as a group project.

 

This of course would also be subject to the approval by the NRG board.....Im sure we could work something out though. 

 

Chuck

[Tigersteve]

I look forward to your next longboat. 

Steve

[Jim Rogers]

The Winnie sounds like a winner and I am willing to wait for a quality project. Give me time to build my Essex.

[Thistle17]

Although I await the Winne from a personal standpoint I don't think it would be a practical "group build" from our club standpoint. If "group build" were interpreted at that level. Certainly at the larger meaning of "group build" as it applies to MSW it would be most interesting. I would add that not having participated in the Triton project maybe I have got the notion wrong.

 

I have been keen on a group project for our club as we have quite a cross section of talent and experience. I would like to see a more manageable project that holds the interest of the more experienced and yet is not a daunting task for the less accomplished. Why not a cross fertilization or teaming of talents? I am going to stick my neck out here. Here goes. For example, I have seen the drawings of David A's Hayling Hoy. It is a beauty. So here is a design, with a book yet. What is missing is something like a starter kit.

 

Before there is too much of an eruption let me say that I am only using this as a stalking horse. Maybe there is a nugget of an idea here. And then again maybe not.

 

Joe

[alde]

I had already planned to purchase the Whinnie when it's ready for sale but as a group build I don't know. For many of us a build like that would be at a minimum of a couple of years to build. With a project that large and involved and builders pace there would be people all over the place as far as progress goes. Would this work for a group build? On the other hand it would sure help a beginner like me to do it with a group.

[Chuck Seiler]

I would be interested in a Pegasus Cross Section group build.  Will it be available for the conference?

[Chuck]

Probably Not Chuck....The cross section is one project that I work on a little at a time.  Right now my priority is the Winnie.  The longboat build is something I am putting together for my local club as a an actual "group build" that a bunch of us will take part in.   So those are two I am finalizing first..

 

The cross section will proceed, but slowly, as its more involved and the plans arent even fully developed yet.   It will get there though.  

 

Joe, the Hayling is a much more complex project than Winnie.  Although smaller it isnt something that will take any less time actually in my opinion to build.  But it would do just the same and make a fine project to call an online group build.  An online group build is very different in the sense that we set up a special area where folks can build at there own pace.  All of the logs are in the same area and the project can be led and moderated by the person who designed and created the project.  They would offer mentoring and advice.  Collectively the group can solve problems and explore different methods for building the same subject.  Because they are all in the same area it is easier for the group to mange and look at each others progress.  See the group forum for the Admiralty models Echo cross section.   That is what we would do when setting up a group build for Hayling or other subjects.

 

Having a starter package for Hayling or any other project is really up to the authors and designers of the model.  So David would have to arrange for the creation of such a starter package.   In order to be considered a group project there also needs to be a minimum of six participants before we can start one.  So we would need to get the commitment of at least six members before we start a group of any subject.   Keep that in mind.

 

Now if we get six members that tell me they commit to building the Hayling and each will start a build log, we will certainly start a group area for it and I would talk to David to see if he would moderate and mentor the group online.  

 

As we talk about a group project more I will take down names to see if we have six members willing to start build logs of whatever subject seems most popular.  Something like Hayling would NOT be an NRG sponsored project but just a separate group area we are always willing to set up for any subject we have six or more commitments for.  We will set up such an area for any group actually.  Similar to the Echo Cross section.  You buy the book and plans from Admiralty and start a log in the new area we set up...unaffiliated with the NRG other than we will accommodate the group.

So let me distinguish between the two types of group projects.

 

The first type is done by and wholly sanctioned by the NRG.  They sponsor the research, creation and dissemination of all items associated with the project. They own it.  Currently none exist that have been specifically designed for an online group.  Although you could add the Galley Washington and the Oyster Sharpie to the list for projects that are immediately available for a group forum.

 

The second type is a group set up to build a project NOT affiliated or owned by the NRG at all.  This would be something like the Hayling, the Winnie or the Long boat.  

 

Depending on how things go with this discussions about a Winnie or Longboat group,  the same is true.  We need six to commit.  It doesnt have to be a project that is designed by the NRG for the forum at all, but they have set aside funds to create one based on what folks want to build that might not be already available and its why nothing is ready yet.  I mention the Winnie, the longboat and Hayling here only because many of you are clamoring to begin a group sooner than later.  They wouldnt really be NRG designed and owned projects.  Hopefully that is clear.  

 

Now...before the NRG starts designing and sanctioning a new project, they want to get an idea of what you guys want....so they dont waste years and $$$ developing a project that we cant get six people to commit to.  Thus the discussion we are having.  But non NRG subjects are fair game and can be started immediately if available and we have a moderator and six committed build logs.

 

If you guys think it would help,  I can add these subjects to the poll for immediate consideration for a group project.  If we get six commitments then we can start one.  BUt we still need to choose new subjects for later.

 

I will add to the poll so you guys should check out the new question. and give some input.

 

-The Washington Galley (NRG Owned) Currently no starter package or kit, plans only

-The Oyster Sharpie (NRG Owned) No starter package or kit, plans only

-The Hayling - Currently no starter package, plans only

-The HMS Winchelsea 1764 - 3-4 months away  - has a starter package and plans

-Medway Longboat 1742 - 3-4 months away - has full kit with plans

-None of the above....you will wait for another new choice

 

[kurtvd19]

I might mention that the Generic Sharpie has plans and a 200+ page instruction manual (a free download).  There is currently one build log.

Kurt

[Chuck]

Also remember that we need to have someone moderate these groups that ideally would be the designers/authors.   I forgot to mention that important piece of the puzzle.  Or at least someone who really really knows the subject matter and is familiar with each project.   As the NRG creates and sanctions new online group projects this will be an important part of that....which may be an issue with the Galley Washington.  But we will see.

[James H]

I think a starter package for those of us with limited workshop tooling. Sometimes, that's the only thing that may stop a modeller trying a POF.

[Kurt Johnson]

I personally would like to see the long boat. Since I’m currently working on the Queen Anne barge it would be a nice addition, being the same scale and period. I definitely think it should be a small subject that could be completed in a reasonable amount of time. The amount of time required for say the Winnie and the space required, I would think be difficult to keep a group of people focused on to complete the project.  Having it available as a starter package or as a complete kit would open the project up to a wider group of people. If someone wanted just the plans so they could scratch build it they could always go that route.  

 

I would be willing to pay for such a starter package or kit. I don’t see how anyone could expect not to. How much, depends on what it is. The cheapest kits are around $50 to $75 and that doesn’t buy very much. I would imagine it would be much better quality, so $100 to 150 wouldn’t be unreasonable. $75 for plans would also be reasonable.

 

Something non military, like the sharpie or Michael’s pilot boat (not in 1/8, I don’t have the room) would be kinda nice.

 

Kurt

[Thistle17]

Chuck, that was a really good explanation and now I understand the precepts of such an endeavor. I will continue to monitor the voting and participate when all decide.

Joe

[Cathead]

This is probably a little too regional/obscure, but personally I think a really unique model would be of the "barge" used by Lewis & Clark as their main vessel on their exploration up the Missouri River. I scratchbuilt a rough version of this when I first started getting into this hobby:

 

It has major historical significance, is similar in size and rough layout to other longboats but is far less redundant, and there is some historical information available on its design and construction. The idea that those guys paddled/dragged/sailed this thing all the way to western Montana from St. Louis still boggles my mind, and it'd be a really neat piece of Americana. Seems no less obscure than some of the regional fishing boats that have been proposed. What do you think?

[Chuck]

Eric, Nice choice....I will certainly keep that mind.  Very good

[Cathead]

I live in central Missouri, and would certainly be willing to help in some R&D given my access to St. Louis museums and the Missouri historical society. I'm just an amateur when it comes to actual model development, but it'd be quite fascinating to be a research assistant for such a project. As far as I know there's no model kit or even plans available for this really interesting and important craft, and it would be a great NRG project to fill that gap. Heck, Chuck, even if you want to make a private kit of this I'd be interested in helping.

[DocBlake]

A great project would be a stern section including a great cabin, magazine, light room and filling room in a larger scale, say 1:32

[kurtvd19]

Eric:

Do you know what they did for plans of the replica barge in the museum in IL where the expedition spent the winter?  I saw the barge before it and the museum were complete and it was very interesting.  A guy did a scratch model of this barge and took a gold medal last year at Manitowoc with it.  I will contact him about what he used for plans.

Kurt

[Cathead]

Kurt, I don't, I haven't been there.

 

The idea of a stern with great cabin, etc. is a great one too. I love the interior of ships and far too few models really explore that aspect.

[JpR62]

I agree with Dave and Eric. A stern section would be a very good idea.

When I see what is preparing for the next Admiralty Models October 2018 Workshop, I can only regret to live so far...

https://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/18207-admiralty-models-october-2018-workshop/

[GrandpaPhil]

I really like the Triton concept where you had both the cross section and the complete build available.  That said I would be interested in building Winchelsea sometime in the future.  She looks like a neat project.

[GrandpaPhil]

Just please don’t shut down the Triton project until I get a chance to build mine.  

[Chuck]

There is still quite a bit of activity with that group so its not in any danger of being shut down.  On the other hand we may have to finally wind down the Echo group because I only hear crickets from that area.  But we have been talking about that for a while.  It never really goes away entirely as we will move the build logs to the general scratch build log forum etc.

 

Chuck

[kurtvd19]

1 hour ago, kurtvd19 said:

Eric:

Do you know what they did for plans of the replica barge in the museum in IL where the expedition spent the winter?  I saw the barge before it and the museum were complete and it was very interesting.  A guy did a scratch model of this barge and took a gold medal last year at Manitowoc with it.  I will contact him about what he used for plans.

Kurt

I found the source for the plans - right in my office in fact.  The plans used for the model were the same plans used for the museum boat at the Camp River duBois at Hartford, IL.  There was an article in the March 1993 issue of the Nautical Research Journal  - Keelboat, Pirogue, and Canoe: Vessels Used by the Lewis and Clark Corps of Discovery by Richard C. Boss = pages 68-87.  Incidentally the article is available at the NRG store as a downloadable pdf for $2.50.  The article and plans can certainly be used to develop a set of model building plans.

Kurt

 

Link to museum site   http://www.campdubois.com/

 

[Cathead]

Fantastic! I should have been more clear, I meant that I hadn't found any commercially available plans (my past web searches hadn't turned up that NRJ article). So good to know that those resources exist. Even if this doesn't turn into an NRG project, I'll be tempted to try this on my own (the version shown above is pretty rough).