CA-glue for ratlines?

[TomJonas]

I am building Di Agostini's Vasa. For the ratlines they suggest that CA-glue should be used instead of the usual knots.

And paint it black to cover the glueblobs.

 

What do you think?

[chris watton]

No, never use cyano for rigging. use watered down PVA wood glue and brush it onto the knots. Wait to cure and then trim the excess. Also, use clove hitch knots for the ratlines.

 

But do not use super glue!

Edited May 11, 2019 by chris watton

[Bill Tuttle]

Excellent advice from Chris, Never use CA on rigging anywhere except to treat the end of your rigging to stiffen it when you thread it through a block or other small hole.  I built kits years ago using CA and it has since crumbled or destroyed many of the knots where I employed it.  In those past years, it was recommended by many but it hadn't been time tested.  Diluted PVA glue is perfect for the job and the clove hitches are very easy to do.

[Jaager]

Since carpenter's PVA is vinegar range acidic - bookbinder's neutral pH PVA may be a more prudent choice..

 

And an armchair experiment to consider:

Sew the ratline thru the shrouds.

Overlay the join locations with a clove hitch using a rope with a diameter that is a step lower than the actual ratline.

I suspect that the knot when using a actual ratline looks larger than it would on an actual ship.  It may even be a quicker way and less to finagle.

[TomJonas]

Thankyou! I'll skip the CA-glue. The knots are no problems, but sometimes the line between the knots is slacking and not tight. But that is only inexperience - have to be more careful.

 

[JerseyCity Frankie]

As an alternative point of view, I use CA all the time, even sometimes on rigging. I agree though that white or PV glues are best for rigging, I’m not in agreement that CA has no place in ship models. It’s a question of where and how you employ it. It’s also a question of scale too, smaller models have tiny shrouds and I’ve done ratlines entirely in CA on my smaller models, such as my Sophie and Leopard.

[allanyed]

YT-  

  I agree totally with your statement "never use Cyanoacrylate adhesive in scaled ship building for anything . Period. "   CUDOS!!!!

Allan

[chris watton]

I would also like to add that you only apply the diluted PVA glue to the ends of the ratlines, where you trim off the excess, there is no need to add it to every knot. You can then carefully pull/manipulate the ratlines to that the shrouds do not appear to be pulled in.

 

I have always used PVA (except for applying CA to the ends of rigging to stiffen it to help get it through deadeyes/blocks/eyebolts) because the models needed to travel a long way, and the chance of mast and spar damage was high. If every part was stuck with CA, the damage would be much worse. As it was, it was only the rigging lines that worked loose on occasion, leaving the masts and spars intact - which would be much more difficult to replace/repair.

Edited May 12, 2019 by chris watton

[stm]

I am in the minority. I have been using CA on rigging lines for decades and have never had a problem. PVA may be a better choice based on those who have tried both, which I have not. I use a very small amount so as not to change the color of the line.  

 

Scott

[wefalck]

I never use CA or PVA on rigging above all for one simple reason: things cannot be undone, if needed. I always use a fast-drying solvent-based varnish. A drop of solvent allows you to loosen knots and adjust the lines, if needed - and often it is needed.

[Clark]

Would totally agree that CA is mostly a no go in rigging. However, I used it once on knots when giving a final fixation with 0.25 mm black rigging lines. The knots were then covered with black ink. Applying the CA was a bit tricky. I made the experience that watered PVA also leads to changes in the colour of rigging lines (depending on the type of lines).

Clark

[wefalck]

The darkening of light coloured threads is the same physical phenomenon as for wood: the pores filled with glue act as a sort of optical fibre, leading the light deeper into the material, with less light reflected from the surface and the inside of the pores. This is more or less unavoidable for deeply penetrating glues or varnishes.

 

Low-viscosity varnishes applied sparingly do not fill the pores and, hence, lead to less darkening.

 

I am using cellulose-nitrate based lacquer (Zaponlack in German), which is traditionally used to protect shiny brass and silver from oxidation. It is colourless and can be redissolved or made to penetrate more with a drop of acetone.

[Clark]

Hi Wefalck, thanks for the tip. I will try the Zaponlack next time.

[Dave_E]

Hi All,

 

I have to reopen this thread as I am in the process of constructing rat lines for the first time. I am using .2mm dark brown rope from Syren. Off the top of my head, I don’t recall if is cotton or not. Anyway, here’s the deal. After tying the clove hitch… and moving on to the next shroud line, the last clove hitch knot starts to loosen. I only have 3 shroud lines to tie the clove hitch on and have the temptation to spot glue each knot. Is this unraveling a trait of very thin synthetic rope? I know my knots and checked them against multiple YouTube videos.

 

How thin should the wood PVA be (in parts) that I should be using on the knots?

[wefalck]

I may repeat myself, but I would rather use some fast-drying solvent-based varnish. I soaks in better and can be easily loosened with a drop of acetone or the respective solvent, if it needs to be adjusted.

[chris watton]

Watered down PVA brushed on the shrouds and ratlines works a treat - I would never use CA for these.

[James H]

I use thinned PVA for mine. Just a drop of water in a little squeeze bottle filled with PVA. 

[glbarlow]

Watered PVA or clear acrylic- 

[Dave_E]

32 minutes ago, glbarlow said:

Watered PVA or clear acrylic- 

I’ll try the clear acrylic.

[allanyed]

Go with the above recommendations if possible.  I would rather melt a horse hoof on the kitchen stove (while the admiral is away) and use that rather than use CA on any rigging.  Learned the hard way about using CA a long time ago.        

Allan

Edited May 21, 2022 by allanyed

[glbarlow]

CA is fine used properly for some rigging, just not on rat lines. I’m really not sore why a horse hoof would be detached from a horse, let alone why you’d put it on a stove. 

[BenD]

1 hour ago, glbarlow said:

CA is fine used properly for some rigging, just not on rat lines. I’m really not sore why a horse hoof would be detached from a horse, let alone why you’d put it on a stove. 

You can make glue out of Horse hooves. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoof_glue

[Jaager]

Various protein based adhesives were pretty much all that was available before WWI.  There are hide glues that are still commercially available.  They probably rate more consideration than we give them.

I wonder if shellac would serve as a rigging fixative?  The less extracted grades of flakes - dark auburn and amber   may even turn inappropriate bleached running rigging into a more accurate straw color.  They would be easy to apply and have an effective reverse gear.

[amateur]

When turning to pva, make sure your rigging line is natural stuff.

The guterman polyester thread   I used doesn't mind the PVA, and keeps loosening up ....

 

Jan

[Dave_E]

Just now, amateur said:

When turning to pva, make sure your rigging line is natural stuff.

The guterman polyester thread   I used doesn't mind the PVA, and keeps loosening up ....

 

Jan

That’s what I assumed, and think that’s what happened to me and why I initially went to ca glue. So… no more ca for me under any circumstances for ratlines. I am experimenting with shellac, polyurethane, and wood PVA. I’m starting the starboard side ratlines today and am going to use cotton rope for sure and see what happens. Good input Jan! 👍😀

[wefalck]

Man-made fibres tend to be water-repellent or at least their wetting behaviour is not as good as natural fibres. That's why a solvent-based lacquer/varnish (including shellac) is a better option. Personally, I prefer what is zapon-varnish as used on silver- or brass-ware to prevent tarnishing. It is colourless and remains somewhat flexible (in comparison to shellac).

 

Every varnish that really soaks in and does not stay on the surface as a coating will deepen the colour of materials ('ropes' and wood). This is normal and a physical effect of light guided (like and optical fibre) into the pores, rather than being reflected.

[Bob Cleek]

5 hours ago, Jaager said:

I wonder if shellac would serve as a rigging fixative?  The less extracted grades of flakes - dark auburn and amber   may even turn inappropriate bleached running rigging into a more accurate straw color.  They would be easy to apply and have an effective reverse gear.

IMHO, shellac is an excellent option as a rigging "fixative."  Shellac comes in a wide range of colors, generally shades of "garnet." It's not a good option for coloring line, though, because the pigment is carried in the alcohol solution, so the more shellac you apply, the darker the color will get if you are using unbleached shellac. That makes it somewhat difficult to get a consistent shade of color with it when applied here and there on a piece. The type to use has the color bleached out of it. It's called "clear" or "white" shellac. It's invisible when applied. Best to address the desired color to the underlying material and use clear shellac for securing knots. I expect fine furniture makers may have a reason for using flake shellac and mixing their own with alcohol, but I've never seen the point in messing with raw shellac in flake form when it can be so easily purchased already dissolved and ready to use. 

[rwiederrich]

No matter what adhesive I use, I always cover it up with a little flat black paint. Paint covers a multitude of sin and even a mild glue sheen can be distracting.

Personally I use CA on all my lines and then black paint.   I use shellac type adhesives or clear/mat drying wood adhesives for my rope coils and the like.

I may not do things the preferred way, but I always do them my way.   A benefit of going round the sun 60 times .......

 

Rob

 

Edited May 27, 2022 by rwiederrich

[Twokidsnosleep]

So if I am reading between the lines correctly, one should chose cotton rope options from manufacturers and not the polyester as the latter will not take glues, stains and will not hold knots as well???

Is that correct?

What about those little fuzzies that come of natural fibers?

Edited March 26, 2023 by Twokidsnosleep

[Keith Black]

I use polyester line because cotton rots.