HMS Indefatigable 1794 (prototype) by James H - Vanguard Models - 1:64

[James H]

My room got gradually messier over the last 3 year with only interim cleans. 

 

For the first time since last April, there's no building activity.

 

This time it's a deep clean to remove all vestiges of dust and detritus. Indy is now encapsulated so it won't get dusty during the next project. About halfway to making this workable again. 

 

[Oldsalt1950]

I must have missed something somwhere, is there another manual or an addendum to cover masting and rigging, or will we just have to work off the plan sheet drawings?

 

Jim

 

[chris watton]

4 minutes ago, Oldsalt1950 said:

I must have missed something somwhere, is there another manual or an addendum to cover masting and rigging, or will we just have to work off the plan sheet drawings?

 

Jim

 

There are 9 full size plan sheets dealing with masts and rig. Before I started developing my own kits, the models I developed before also never had photographs of the masting and rigging sequence in the manuals, or if they did , they were very basic, as the plan sheets deal with this. They have all of the separate masts and yard line drawings, along with all dimensions required. Photographs of this stage are always a little surplus to requirements. 

 

You cannot put the masts together using pictures, you need the line drawings and dimensions on the plan sheets for that.

[James H]

20 minutes ago, Oldsalt1950 said:

I must have missed something somwhere...

 

 

Nope! 😆

 

Masting and rigging is well covered in the plans and making masts is mostly all about dimensions from dowel stock, I can't confer that any easier than a plan can. We also have to assume that at this skill level that the builder will have the prerequisite skillset to complete.

[Oldsalt1950]

Just making sure gentlemen. The manual is quite comprehensive, You were even kind enough to show the drill sizes for the PC board bits, and the history section is outstanding. Glennard2523's build log should be getting a lot of traffic for the pictures of HMS Trincomalee, which i am sure many will use for some reference of various bits and pieces, and for comparison as they build. 

 

Jim

 

[chris watton]

Just looked at some of my old Amati kit files, no photographs at all in the building manuals, these kits like Fly, Vanguard etc. have line drawings only, and that's including the hull assembly. 

 

Indy has a very detailed step by step hull assembly manual in A3 size with photos and text, and very detailed line drawings for masts, yards and rigging. All masts and yard parts are also to scale. It is the hull assembly that requires lots of photos, as the vast majority of the main build is the hull and all the detail therein. There really isn't much to the top hamper in comparison. 

[chris watton]

I would be careful if using HMS Trincomalee as she looks today as a reference for Indy detail, Trincomalee is shown as she was in a much later period than Indy, being a very late build Leda Class.

[Glenn-UK]

18 minutes ago, chris watton said:

I would be careful if using HMS Trincomalee as she looks today as a reference for Indy detail, Trincomalee is shown as she was in a much later period than Indy, being a very late build Leda Class.

Noted, I have been there a couple of times before and it is a great place to visit. I was not planning as using Trincomalee as a reference for Indy but there are certain aspects which will be of great interest.

[Trussben]

Chris - Id be interested to know what contemporary source you had for adding the “extra” two forward gunports on the Quarterdeck - as I have not come across it.

 

 

[chris watton]

11 minutes ago, Trussben said:

Chris - Id be interested to know what contemporary source you had for adding the “extra” two forward gunports on the Quarterdeck - as I have not come across it.

 

 

I have explained this twice before. Research did tell me that Indy had 18 carronades and 2 x 12 pounder chase guns. The only way these could have been fitted is if the quarter barricade was extended.

Edited February 14, 2023 by chris watton

[Trussben]

And the source?

[chris watton]

18 minutes ago, Trussben said:

And the source?

It is mentioned in the book 'Frigates of the Napoleonic Wars, by Robert Gardiner. I assume you do not have this book?

 

ETA - I am stone cold sure she would have also had a built up forecastle for most of her career, but decided not to go that far for aesthetic reasons.

 

ETA 2 - Just got that book out to double check, this is what it says:

 

'The draught may not represent the ship as finally fitted out.........but his (Pellew's) correspondence with the Admiralty twice mentions fourteen quarterdeck ports (as opposed to twelve shown on the draught), and he was eventually allowed two additional 12 pounders for the 'spare' quarterdeck ports. By the time she captured Virginie, she was reported to carry eighteen 42 pounder carronades and two long 12 pounders on the upperworks, so must have had a total of twenty ports, which probably means seven per side on the quarterdeck'

 

Edited February 14, 2023 by chris watton

[Trussben]

Thanks Chris.

[Seb Martingale]

Hi Chris,

 

A fabulous model and a great build by James.

I see a couple of items are covered by the use of waterslide decals. These do have a definite shelf life - I know because of my journeys into plastic modelling.

 

Would you care to make an estimate of the shelf life of the ones included in the kit?

 

Regards, Seb.

[James H]

4 hours ago, Seb Martingale said:

Hi Chris,

 

A fabulous model and a great build by James.

I see a couple of items are covered by the use of waterslide decals. These do have a definite shelf life - I know because of my journeys into plastic modelling.

 

Would you care to make an estimate of the shelf life of the ones included in the kit?

 

Regards, Seb.

 

Decals last many, many years. Even the older ones I've seen used have lasted over 20yrs and still been ok. Some old decals used to yellow on the carrier film, but you've no need to worry with modern stuff.

[mugje]

It amazes me how many ship models you produce in such short amount of time...especially this monster! Plus the photowork etc you need to do for the manuals. Taking my imaginaire hat off for you James! And ofcourse also for Chris his rate of developing!

Edited February 18, 2023 by mugje

[Mike_H]

Just catching up after a month of riding my bike in antipodean sunshine.  She looks magnificent!  Really striking how the final addition of deck furniture gives a sense of scale - she’s a big girl.  And also how it shouts out about the quality of the model (and the build skills used).  

 

Every times I see the yellow ochre shown in this log I think - wow, that’s bright.  Probably my only real point of comparison is Victory, and I know that historical views on her colour at Trafalgar have changed over time.   Given how much research Chris has done, I wonder if there is a precedent for such a bright yellow?

 

On documentation of masting and rigging, I think Chris’s twin points - decent drawings and the level of skill expected for this model - are compelling arguments. That said, and having just hauled myself up from novice-level in this respect, there is room for an intermediate model, where the manual suggests the order of build and gives a brief description of the purpose of each category of rigging.

[James H]

3 hours ago, Mike_H said:

Just catching up after a month of riding my bike in antipodean sunshine.  She looks magnificent!  Really striking how the final addition of deck furniture gives a sense of scale - she’s a big girl.  And also how it shouts out about the quality of the model (and the build skills used).  

 

Every times I see the yellow ochre shown in this log I think - wow, that’s bright.  Probably my only real point of comparison is Victory, and I know that historical views on her colour at Trafalgar have changed over time.   Given how much research Chris has done, I wonder if there is a precedent for such a bright yellow?

 

On documentation of masting and rigging, I think Chris’s twin points - decent drawings and the level of skill expected for this model - are compelling arguments. That said, and having just hauled myself up from novice-level in this respect, there is room for an intermediate model, where the manual suggests the order of build and gives a brief description of the purpose of each category of rigging.

 

The yellow used on this model was Humbrol 74 Linen. My photoshop editing may have called for saturation to be turned down a little. Don't rely too much on any intensity that there seems to be. She's no different than any other scheme like this that I've seen modelled over the years.

[James H]

A little history (edited from wiki!)

 

HMS Indefatigable was one of the Ardent-class 64-gun third-rate ships-of-the-line designed by Sir Thomas Slade in 1761 for the Royal Navy. She was built as a ship-of-the-line, but most of her active service took place after her conversion to a 44-gun razee frigate. She had a long career under several distinguished commanders, serving throughout the French Revolutionary Wars and the Napoleonic Wars. She took some 27 prizes, alone or in company, and the Admiralty authorised the issue of four clasps to the Naval General Service Medal in 1847 to any surviving members of her crews from the respective actions.

 

Indefatigable was ordered on 3 August 1780 (long after Slade's death), and her keel was laid down in May 1781 at the Bucklers Hard shipyard in Hampshire owned by Henry Adams. She was launched in early July 178,  and completed from 11 July to 13 September of that year at Portsmouth Dockyard as a 64-gun two-decked third rate for the Royal Navy. She had cost £25,210 4s 5d to build; her total initial cost including fitting out and coppering was £36,154 18s 7d (around £6.6m in today's money). By that time, she was already outmoded for the role of a ship of the line as the French only built the more powerful 74-gun ships, and she was never commissioned in that role.

 

She was broken up in 1816.

 

The kit
This is quite literally hot off the press with regards to what you see here. Indefatigable is being represented in this new kit as the razée, and quite rightly so. I do have a lot of affection for the stuff built at Bucklers Hard, having visited there a couple of times myself. It's a beautifully tranquil place in England's New Forest, which really does betray the hive of activity it used to be. It even has the original shipwrights houses and the pub there, as part of the tour. Just to think, Indefatigable was definitely built in one of these two slips, as was Agamemnon etc. I took these photos a couple of years ago.

 

 

This is very stuff for Indefatigable, as all I currently have are the cannon, carronades, and also the cutter. It will also become very obvious that when building these models, I never do anything in chronological order as seen in the manual. I work on whatever Chris has completed and sends over to me, with other work infilling between main tasks. I try to waste as little time as possible in order to keep to fairly tight release schedules. For the first time you'll see me work on stuff like this before the big hitters are sent to me. Even then, I will feed back with my findings and things will possibly be changed to reflect my own build. 

 

Not too much to see at the moment, and work won't start proper for a week or so, so keep checking in to see if things have progressed. Here's the two sheets of 2mm pear which contain the gun carts...

 

I also have three bags of guns. These are:

• 12-pound long
• 24-pound long
• 42-pound carronades

 

I do need to wash these guns in some isopropyl, especially the carronades as the initial washing left then with tissue debris on them. Also, the carronade carriages will also have 3d-printed wheels! 

 

Indefatigable will have many of the design traits of Sphinx, but this time incorporate more traditional planking around the upper bulwarks and gun ports etc. Indy will also feature a traditionally planked deck too. 

 

Here are the parts for the cutter:

 

Chris might want to chime in here with other notes on the design too. 

 

[Blue Ensign]

Vanguard re-imagined.

A conversation between Sir Christopher Watton, notable ship designer for his Britannic Majesty, and Mr James Hatch (seated) acknowledged Master shipwright, and preferred Navy Board contractor.

 

Think you can knock this up by Easter Hatch, need to recoup  some funds, don’t you know.

 

That’s a big ask Sir Christopher, I ain’t left the yard in months, and I’ve only just finished chopping down that last Sixty-four you’ve had me working on for weeks.

 

Well, do your best Hatch, and don’t forget the penalty clauses..

 

[Kevin]

Thats brilliant

 

[ECK]

I received the kit and can't wait to start but will be a couple of months to finish my current build. As I was going over the very extensive and great plans I noticed a couple of things:

 

1. No note is made of when to put in the main deck cannons onto their trucks. Buy the pictures, it looks like after the painting is done. To rig them, mainly the ones you can see would make spray painting difficult as they would be sticking out of the hull. Also to rig all lower guns visible from above requires doing it before the upper deck installed, again making spray painting hard.

2. I do have rigging plans for the long guns from other Vanguard projects but no rigging plan for the carronades. I have seen various versions in these forms but non specific to the eyelets on this model's version.

 

I think others now starting their build logs will hit these issues before me so will keep an eye out.

 

Overall an incredible build

 

 

[James H]

The barrels are inserted at the very end and are easy to sit on the carts. I used CA gel. 

[chris watton]

1 hour ago, ECK said:

I received the kit and can't wait to start but will be a couple of months to finish my current build. As I was going over the very extensive and great plans I noticed a couple of things:

 

1. No note is made of when to put in the main deck cannons onto their trucks. Buy the pictures, it looks like after the painting is done. To rig them, mainly the ones you can see would make spray painting difficult as they would be sticking out of the hull. Also to rig all lower guns visible from above requires doing it before the upper deck installed, again making spray painting hard.

2. I do have rigging plans for the long guns from other Vanguard projects but no rigging plan for the carronades. I have seen various versions in these forms but non specific to the eyelets on this model's version.

 

I think others now starting their build logs will hit these issues before me so will keep an eye out.

 

Overall an incredible build

 

 

I will add a sentence in the manual when ready for reprint,  stating that you can add the cannon barrels any time you like once the hull has been painted and you no longer have to lay the hull on its side or upside down. For gluing them in place, you can use superglue or epoxy resin.

 

Regarding rigging plans for cannon, I have never designed a kit and made the model showing this, except perhaps breech ropes on the odd occasion. This is because I do not like to add this detail, as unless they are done very very well using very small blocks and hairless thread, they never stand up to close photographic scrutiny. In fact, I have seen many very well made models almost ruined by the inclusion of fully rigged cannon. But this is entirely my preference, and each modeller is different.

[yvesvidal]

5 minutes ago, chris watton said:

Regarding rigging plans for cannon, I have never designed a kit and made the model showing this, except perhaps breech ropes on the odd occasion. This is because I do not like to add this detail, as unless they are done very very well using very small blocks and hairless thread, they never stand up to close photographic scrutiny. In fact, I have seen many very well made models almost ruined by the inclusion of fully rigged cannon. But this is entirely my preference, and each modeller is different.

 

I concur completely... especially, when you have to rig 70 cannons. 😉

 

Yves

[Morten]

I am just finnishingthE ring on Hms Speedy bur I have bought INdefaigable. Inspected the y bog box tay. Woawwwwh     Looking forward  build it. The cost is high BUT you donget walliue for your money.  

[Blue Ensign]

A quick question if I may Jim,

Are the inner bulwark patterns meant to run flush with the tops of the gunport upper rails?

I can't quite decide from looking at the profile on plan sheet 2.

My inclination is to fit them as is with the tops flush with the top of the rails which I think you have done.

 

Thank you,

 

B.E.

[James H]

Yes, the lower edge of that pear bulwark sits along upper edge of the main deck gun ports and also aligns with those frames ports in the cabin area. 

[Blue Ensign]

Sorry to appear obtuse Jim, but doesn't the lower edge of the bulwark pattern sit on the deck line?

0541

This is how the patterns line -up with the top-line just above the upper rail in places.

0540

0539

This is how the pattern aligns on the plan against the ports, dipping below the deck-line, and the upper rail, which would suggest a fair amount of trimming off the bottom of the pattern.

 

This is the cause of my confusion.

 

B.E.

[James H]

Sorry, I thought you were referring to something else. 
 

That part you show last has a lot compound curve in it and the plan can can only show a flat projection and not the curves in that area. The only sanding those parts need is to ensure that they sit on the deck and also underneath Any of the structures that might protrude over that area.