Chris Watton and Vanguard Models news and updates Volume 2

[Blue Ensign]

 

A few things to enjoy from the bow image.

Look at the subtle curve of the hull form.

The elegance of the headworks, and graceful sweep of the main Rail.

The provision of double seats of ease.

The hinged bracket for the  Boomkins in the False rail.

The cills around the gunports.

A fine figure for the head.

and knowing that behind the bow the space is properly formed allowing the detailing of mangers and Bowsprit stop.

The Maturin figure, provides the interesting task of getting that subtle patina to the cello surface.

 

Tasty stuff indeed  Chris.👌

 

B.E.

[chris watton]

17 minutes ago, Blue Ensign said:

 

A few things to enjoy from the bow image.

Look at the subtle curve of the hull form.

The elegance of the headworks, and graceful sweep of the main Rail.

The provision of double seats of ease.

The hinged bracket for the  Boomkins in the False rail.

The cills around the gunports.

A fine figure for the head.

and knowing that behind the bow the space is properly formed allowing the detailing of mangers and Bowsprit stop.

The Maturin figure, provides the interesting task of getting that subtle patina to the cello surface.

 

Tasty stuff indeed  Chris.👌

 

B.E.

Thank you!

 

The version that Jim will have will be much more refined, the V frames and rails took an age to prefect, and that pic is the result of 4 previous versions that were added, ripped off, copy/paste.

For the 5 V frames, I will include as standard 2 full sets on 2mm pear, and a set on 2mm MDF. I do this because the edges and notches for the rails do need bevelling, so perhaps having a set or two to practise on will help.

 

No PE decoration on this one, as I find the PolyBak or thin pear much better, and looks a lot more ‘natural’. I find PE is still better to use for window frames at this scale, however. I have tried to limit the PE to mostly ‘Ironwork’, parts that would have been in some sort of metal in real life – or some parts simply because they would be far too fragile in any other material.

Here is a pic of the starboard quarter gallery, just after I added the ‘shingles’
 

I will now spend the next week or so adding the parts I have already designed to the hull, and then send Jim the remaining laser cut parts, so he will have the full kit. One last decision will be how the stern davits are secured - not 100% sure yet....

Edited Wednesday at 05:07 PM by chris watton

[glbarlow]

Well done. I imagine in the “refined” version the figureheads butt will be closer to sitting on the head rails (if that’s the right word, head rails,not butt)😀

[chris watton]

[glbarlow]

Just recommending the top rail go to the skirt, not cut off just short as shown, but what do I know…

[Blue Ensign]

Just a  thought Chris, will you be providing the Lodging knees to the deck beams as you did with Indy?

 

B.E.

[chris watton]

1 hour ago, Blue Ensign said:

Just a  thought Chris, will you be providing the Lodging knees to the deck beams as you did with Indy?

 

B.E.

I did look for for any evidence a French ship like Unite had them, but found none, so no, no lodging knees. Hanging knees, though. As I am not sure, I was inclined not to include.

[Blue Ensign]

I note that Boudriot does not show Lodging knees in his Seventy-four gun ship tomes, as neither do the construction photos of the replica French Frigate  L'Hermione.

In practical terms they would in any case not be visible on your Surprise kit and it would only be of relevance to kit fiddlers like me who may leave deck sections un-planked.

In the case of Surprise I thought you would check it out and I am content to concur.👍

 

Cheers,

 

B.E.

[uss frolick]

To save weight, the French did not use lodging knees, but instead dove-tailed the beam ends into larger than normal clamps. As soon as the captured ship went into the dockyard for a major repair, the British shipwrights would have added them with smaller clamps. L'Unite was taken without a fight, so there was no need for an upper-works rebuilding, unless she was already rotten.

 

Will there be a main-deck, long-gun option, preferably with French pattern 8-pounders, for us Tourterelle-loving Francophiles?

[chris watton]

41 minutes ago, uss frolick said:

 

Will there be a main-deck, long-gun option, preferably with French pattern 8-pounders, for us Tourterelle-loving Francophiles?

I already have two options - one for the 32 pounder carronades on the main gun deck, and the standard, which will have 24x9-pounder long guns.

[Kenchington]

1 hour ago, uss frolick said:

the French did not use lodging knees, but instead dove-tailed the beam ends into larger than normal clamps

Ollivier's 1737 espionage report (David Roberts' translation published 1992, p. 51) is explicit that the French dockyards of his day only put hanging knees at the ends of the deck beams. He wrote that the substitute for lodging knees at that time was heavy waterways (rather than clamps or the later solution: beam shelves) that were scored to fit down over the ends of the beams. He saw the French method as cheaper (not needing the many knees), better resisting hogging (with the continuous, longitudinal timbers) and providing for better caulking, where the English had a difficult seam between waterway and spirketing. He did not mention weight, though he did refer to the amount of timber, which comes to the same thing.

 

I rather wonder whether the French approach, for all its benefits, did not leave their ships more vulnerable to wracking stresses, which were destructive of all wooden hulls until Seppings brought in his diagonal reinforcements around 1810. That would be one of the multiple reasons why the English found that French prizes tended to not last as long as their own ships.

 

Ollivier did mention that the English arrangement, with lodging knees, had been used by the French 50 years before, though he did not date the change in practice.

 

 

Trevor

[uss frolick]

The French method was fine for French purposes at the time, i.e., dashing quickly out of Brest and racing to Martinique or La Reunion, etc., with cargo, and then speeding home. The British needed stronger vessels, as they were constantly at sea on blockade duty, often not dropping anchor for months at a time. Without knees, the unaltered ex-French ships would work themselves to pieces on blockade.

[Kenchington]

8 minutes ago, uss frolick said:

The French method was fine for French purposes at the time,

True of the period after the Seven Years War, for certain, but I'm not so sure of the 1730s -- not so much of whether the French had little need to "keep the seas" as to whether the English did need to then. There may have been both push (French forests getting depleted of knee timber, especially as much of their soil and climate was unsuitable for high-quality oak) and pull (a strategic emphasis on speed rather than endurance), plus a greater influence of innovative savants, versus English reliance on practical shipwrights.

 

Whatever the historical factors, Chris is right to model French-built warships of the 18th Century without lodging knees -- unless they are presented as following a major repair in an English dockyard.

 

Trevor

[chris watton]

OK, I have now completed what I need to for the designs. The 'mule' is finished, no need to garner any more info from it - and here she is. No varnish, paint and much abused, Jim's model will have much more finesse (and colour).

I knew I was close to the finishing line (designs) for this, so I was up most of the night, and then all of today to complete it - now I can relax a little before starting the CAD drawings for plans..
 

[brunnels]

I watched the new 4K release of Master and Commander last night, now these images..... The wait for release is getting tough to bear lol.  

[chris watton]

4 minutes ago, brunnels said:

I watched the new 4K release of Master and Commander last night, now these images..... The wait for release is getting tough to bear lol.  

My copy isn't arriving until 14th September!

[Kevin]

Chris yr mule looks better than my completed version will look lol

[Some Idea]

What a fabulous model - amazing Chris

[Blue Ensign]

I think she's a winner Chris.👏

Can you expand a little on the Carronade fixings, seems to be a bracket pinned thro' the cill, I'm not familiar with that arrangement.

 

B.E.

[chris watton]

1 hour ago, Blue Ensign said:

I think she's a winner Chris.👏

Can you expand a little on the Carronade fixings, seems to be a bracket pinned thro' the cill, I'm not familiar with that arrangement.

 

B.E.

Yes, the bracket for the 18-Pounder carronades is fixed/pinned to the sill. In the final kit, the middle bulwark patterns will have a small slot at the centre of each lower sill position to take the pin to secure the bracket, with he bracket itself being cut from PolyBak.

[Pitan]

That looks beautiful Chris.
Noob question, is that 3d print (by the first hatch) the stove's chimney?  It seems to point/vent aft.

Edited 9 hours ago by Pitan

[chris watton]

Just now, Pitan said:

That looks beautiful Chris.
Noob question, is that 3d print the stove's chimney?  It seems to point/vent aft.

The chimney is posable as it is a push fit, you can rotate it however you wish

[Blue Ensign]

3 hours ago, chris watton said:

Yes, the bracket for the 18-Pounder carronades is fixed/pinned to the sill. In the final kit, the middle bulwark patterns will have a small slot at the centre of each lower sill position to take the pin to secure the bracket, with he bracket itself being cut from PolyBak.

 

Thanks Chris,  I can now see where the idea of a cill fixed carronade bed came from - Marquardt's drawings in the Frigate Surprise book.

This was a bit of a 'surprise ' to me, as the only versions I recalled seeing are the 'inboard' and 'outboard' variants.

Presumably you have tested a PolyBak  structure is sufficiently robust to stand the  odd inadvertent knock?

 

Cheers,

 

B.E.

[chris watton]

21 minutes ago, Blue Ensign said:

 

 

Presumably you have tested a PolyBak  structure is sufficiently robust to stand the  odd inadvertent knock?

 

Cheers,

 

B.E.

Of course!

[Vane]

I just had a look at the Caldercraft Surprise prototype... they never finished it, but the photos are still up on their webpage. Let me put it like this... there is a slight difference in the look and details... 😛  

[ccoyle]

17 minutes ago, Kevin said:

LOL  why are you comparing to a company that hasnt brought anything new out in years

 

I think he was saying that there is no comparison.

[James H]

1 hour ago, Vane said:

I just had a look at the Caldercraft Surprise prototype... they never finished it, but the photos are still up on their webpage. Let me put it like this... there is a slight difference in the look and details... 😛  

and that’s an understatement! 

[Blue Ensign]

The Jotika/Caldercraft Surprise sadly looks very clunky compared with the finely scaled details of  present day Vanguard kits. Chris has done to the established ranges of many long established kit manufacturers, what HMS Warrior did to the Wooden sailing navy.

 

B.E.