HMS Victory by gil middleton - FINISHED - Caldercraft - 1:72

[gil middleton]

Patrick and Popeye, You're very kind. Thanks.  Gil

[gil middleton]

ROPE COILS

 

A few years ago, Mike Graff came to our Puget Sound Ship Modelers group with a simple small model of a cat rigged sloop.  It had a single rope coil laying over the hatch, hanging down over one edge as if tossed aside.  No thread coil takes on this natural shape. Obviously, Mike had carefully worked the threads and fixed the shape with dilute white glue.  This single coil looked so exquisite and so natural that it changed my view of how coils should look on model ships.

 

On my former models, the rope coils were well formed with a single loop over the belaying pin.  They were precise, uniform and made a great presentation. BUT THEY DID NOT LOOK REAL.

 

I reviewed the postings on rope coils, several with excellent suggestions and technique, and then looked at all my photos of real ships.  We all draw our mental picture from our own experience or that of others.  Ed Tosti noted that it was impossible to show all the tails of all the lines without hiding many details.  He showed a few with exceptional results.  Peter (Petervisser) and Jay (modeler 12) gave clear presentations of their excellent methods.

 

I believe a common shortcoming of our rope coils (certainly of mine) is uniformity.  There are very heavy lines such as the jeers (7 1/2" circumference / Longridge, about 2.4" or 60mm diameter) with long tails leading from triple blocks.  There are much smaller lines with short tails and every thing in between. A plethora of very different lines.  I decided if I could carry the idea of Mike's single coil into all the lines, I would achieve the more natural look I was striving for.

 

It would be far simpler to form the rope coils before limiting access by the running rigging but of course one can't add a rope coil until that rigging line is in place.  The extensive rigging around the fore mast on the Victory makes it virtually impossible to get a hand or short instrument to the bitts. A couple simple tools are shown in the following posts.

 

First, a few photos from the real ship.There are tight "shippy" coils in some areas.

 

 

Mizzen Topsail Sheet Bitts

 

 

Belaying pins at the bulworks. Most coils are laid over the pins, some loose, some with a light wrap and some tied.

 

 

Like most of us, I experimented using dilute white glue (1:10 with water)

 

 

Then tried brass rod to form the lower loops.  Too small

 

 

Then tried a file handle which turned out to be too large

 

 

I decided coat hanger wire was about the right size but it needed to be weighted to hold it in position. On to the next post.

 

 

Edited October 12, 2014 by gil middleton

[gil middleton]

Coils on forward bitts

 

 

Fore topsail Sheet Bitts

 

 

Mizzen mast belaying pins  port

 

 

Stbd.

 

 

Chart weight with hanger wire to form lower loops

 

 

After white glue (1:10 with water). Occasionaly use fast C/A to hold line on belaying pin.

 

 

Adding variation to rope coils

 

 

And next post.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 12, 2014 by gil middleton

[Moonbug]

Thanks for the rope coils info. Valuable stuff.

 

-Bug

[gil middleton]

Fore Topsail Sheet bitts

 

 

Using weight with hanger wire to form coils.

 

 

Long forceps and long nose scissors

 

 

Cutting off excess.

 

 

Lifting weight between the lines.

 

 

Loose coil on Main Top Bowline Bitts

 

 

Long forceps, Smooth jaw needle driver, long nose scissors (Micro Mark #84737) and chart weight with wire drilled into weight.

 

 

Next post

Edited October 13, 2014 by gil middleton

[gil middleton]

Chart weight (for holding nautical chart on a chart table)   2 mm. hanger wire glued into holes drilled into weight.

 

 

Rope coils at Main Top Bowline Bitts

 

 

Loose coils at fore topsail sheet bitts.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 13, 2014 by gil middleton

[augie]

Thank you for this comprehensive tutorial on the coils.  Beautifully done mate!

[mtaylor]

Wow... so much to absorb and very refreshing insight into the details of coils.

[dafi]

Love it, thanks for showing!

 

It is nice, that the coils have different sizes. Often seen is a standard size on all the pins. But each rope had a different length that needed to be coiled, so: Thumbs very much up!!!

 

XXXDAn

[gjdale]

Fantastic Gil. Thanks for sharing your technique.

[Blue Ensign]

Very nice work on the belays Gil, like your idea of the weight with the wires to shape the coils.

 

B.E.

[Jerry]

Hi Gil...Thanks again for providing informaton that will be invaluable when I get to those coils of rope.  Once again you have come through for your followers.  Much obliged,

Jerry

[JSGerson]

A pleasure to watch you work!

 

Any tips on how you would model good looking flat rope coils to look like the first picture in response No. 386?

[gieb8688]

Hi Gil,

I love picture day on this build log!!  We all appreciate the valuable reference material you present with your pictures and narratives, thanks!! 

Thanks,

Mark

[Sailor1234567890]

JSGerson, I wouldn't bother trying to model those coils like that. They are purely decorative and no sailing ship would have them unless they had visitors coming aboard. Dignitaries, VIPs etc. They tend to keep moisture and rot the deck beneath them if they are left there. They are "yachty" and most sailors wouldn't have them on their boats. I wouldn't. I see that HMS Victory has them in that first picture but I also see things about how her lines are made fast that makes my spidey senses tingle. Those coils would not have been so different. Yes, there are different sizes and lengths of line meaning that there would have been bigger coils and smaller coils. Not longer, just bulkier. The Bosn and the 1st Lieutenant would have made sure that all coils were made the same way. There are many ways to make up a coil but usually they boil down to the right way, the wrong way, my way or the highway. "My way" was the 1st Lieutenants way and that's how the whole ship would have been done. That's my experience anyway. The lines in those pictures were clearly done by many different riggers on the job with little to no common oversight as to how they were done. In a working ship in the RN in those days, you can be assured that the coils would all have been the same length and made fast to the pin the same way. To add a locking turn or not is generally a matter of personal preference. I prefer to put one locking turn on over the coil rather than simply place the loose coild over the pin. The only difference you'd see being the thickness of the rope and length coiled to vary how much bulk of line there was on the pin. Each line needed to be free to run at a moment's notice so coils that have hitches around the coil would certainly never have been permitted. At least, certainly not if it was done "my way".

[Sailor1234567890]

That being said, Gil's coils are great. They are even and look realistic. That is what I would go for. Coils of the same length no matter the diameter of the line. The bulk of coil being varied to account for the length of line needed for the line being represented and the thickness of the line. Make the coil fast to the pin in the same fashion for each line and you'll have a realistic looking ship model. Decide if you want locking turns over the pin or not and stick with it. I always use a single locking turn over the pin but in modeling it, I can't imagine the PITA it would be to put that locking turn over each coil. I might be inclined to skip the locking turn.

[JSGerson]

Thank you for clearing that up. I'm no sailor, but it didn't seem practical to have those perfectly round coils on a working ship. It is for that reason (plus I had no luck in making my own "pretty" coils) that I didn't try too hard to put them own my own model for the cannon rigging. Now whether I still did my correctly for a working ship I really don't know. No doubt I will get constructive criticism for that.

 

Always an education

 

Jon

[Moonbug]

JSGerson,

 

   I chose to go with the "pretty" coils on much of my San Juan Nepomuceno because I approached the build with the idea that it was just out of the shipy yard. 

    To accomplish them, I used diluted the rigging in diluted white glue, used a sewing pin to hold one end in place and slowing wrap the rest around the center.  I did each coil on a piece of cardboard. Then, after it dried, I slowly cut it away and lifted it from the cardboard by sliding a razor blade under it (much like using a spatula on a pancake) then glued it on the deck.

 

- Bug

[DBorgens]

Gil,

Perfect timing! I am just considering how to make my coils and here you come with a tutorial. Thanks for the many photos to give us plenty of ideas.

Masterful once again.

 

Thanks,

Dave B

[gil middleton]

Thanks you all for your comments.  If our purpose is to encourage discussion, it seems to have worked.

Mark, It was rather a crude first attempt and I have no doubt someone will come up with a better method.  Making coils at the work table and then placing them makes sense but it didn't seem practical for the jeers and braces. 

Daniel (Sailor 1-0) I accept your admonitions and I probably took too much artistic licence.  I hope your "spidey senses" have recovered. Our own boat certainly reflects your First Lieutenant's view. On the other hand, David Steel noted in 1794 that the main yard jeers (jears) were 2 1/2" (6 cm) in diameter and 70 fathoms each in length.  At the least, when two blocked, somewhere around 300' of heavy line remained on deck. Coiling this mass of line as one would smaller lines is not possible.  The main brace at 1 1/2' and 50 fathoms, probably left around 200' on the lee deck.  At the other extreme are flag halyards which being circular, had no tail.  Perhaps we can agree that a series of coils, the same shape and size does not fairly simulate a working ship.

 

And that was the thesis of the post. To raise our awareness to the wide variety of size and length of lines on a sailing ship and reflect those differences in our models.  I sincerely appreciate every comment, and look forward to when Daniel (Dafi) reaches this stage on his Victory.  We will see fifteen tars hauling on a line with a petty officer calling the count. Animated? With sound?  I can't wait.

Cheers, Gil

[gil middleton]

Just for fun, I added the full tail of line for the jeers.  0.75 mm. line is very near to scale for the 2.5" (6 mm.) line  and 36" would be nearly equivalent to 250' on the real ship.  Which is best used in a model?  A token coil to suggest additional line (as in the previous post) or the entire tail which is perhaps more realistic, but a bit overwhelming?  And the winner is?

 

 

 

Edited October 12, 2014 by gil middleton

[Kevin]

Gil lovely work , i like the latest version best

[gjdale]

I'd have to say I think the full amount is a little overwhelming Gil - I'd vote for the original.

[jthemanjack]

Somewhere in between i think Gil.

 

   Jack

Edited January 23, 2014 by jthemanjack

[Kevin]

lol one either way and one in the middle

[popeye the sailor]

looking at pictures of actual rigging,  I'd say you hit the nail on the head.........superb work! 

[Sjors]

I don't say a thing, just follow and amazed what you have done so far Gil !

 

[Glenn-UK]

Hi Gil

I've a long way to go on my HMS Victory build before I can even think about what you are now doing with the coiling, but what fantastic work and great detail and advice to help us mere mortals along the way.

 

Many thanks

Glenn

[Modelman]

After four years my model is ready, or at least I think so...I'm usually a very critical person, but I'm happy with the end result. Of course, no one can compete with the details you have added and the tools you use make me feel I need a heart operation. But good scirrors are always hard to replace...I can't read your blog any more, because all the details you will do later, for exampe with the ships boats, make me feel like a bad person.

Edited January 25, 2014 by Modelman

[Jerry]

LOL @ Modelman

Jerry