Can i live without a BYRNES TABLE SAW

[Thistle17]

I have been a long time woodworker and of late returned to model building. In the 45 years of woodworking I have owned 2 large stationary saws and one contractor saw. The kept table saw is now 35 years old and has been a work horse for me. The contractor saw is a name brand that is an excellent field saw but it is used infrequently, yet it still comes in handy. In modeling I have owned/own 3 model saws. The latest is the Byrnes saw. The prior, the Preac,was recently sold. The Emco add on saw has never been used because of its limits. The Preac was a decent saw for its day but I found it too limiting and falling short of some basic capability.

 

So what is the point you ask? Buy the best you can afford even if you have to be patient in purchase. Amortize the expense over your lifetime and its pretty cheap.Quality tools are lifetime investments and endure. If they find no practical use in the future they are easily sold and the quality ones don't stay on the market very long. My Preac was on Craig's one day. 

[barkingmad]

I read all the previous comments on this blog, watched the YouTube video and scrutinised Jim’s web site.  After using the best excuses I could come up with to convince my beloved wife that I really needed the Rolls Royce of tools, I took the plunge and ordered one.  Shipping charges were breath-taking.  UK import duty was eye-watering.  But it was worth it.  Even though I ordered the saw the day after the UK gave notice to quit the European Union and the value of the UK Pound hit the floor, I still don’t regret it.  The machine is a dream.  The quality is outstanding.  It will last years and outlive me.  I feel that as you only live once, if you get the opportunity to buy the best – go for it, because sometimes the chance only comes round once.   However, we (I) will be living on bread and water for the next year or so and my beer ration has been halved!

 

By the way Jim.  I couldn’t bring myself to cut off the European plug fitted to the machine, so I had to wait nearly a week before a Continental to UK plug adapter arrived courtesy of Amazon UK.   It would have been heresy to use a set of cutters on such a pristine object.

Edited July 19, 2016 by barkingmad

[Red]

My experience mirrored 'barkingmads' response exactly, as does his comments.

Thank you to both Jim/Donna  for a great product.

As soon as the £ climbs back to where it should be and the UK government have stopped trying to pay off the national debt with trade from the USA, I will be going back for Jim's sander.

Kind Regards

Red (Also North Yorkshire)

Edited July 19, 2016 by Red

[CDW]

Well, I have been giving my family "hints" for far too long saying I really wanted the Byrnes table saw. So, within the next few months, I WILL acquire one. Not going to ask anyone permission to buy it, either. Would rather do it and ask for forgiveness than ask for permission and be told, No. 

[Keith_W]

By the way Jim.  I couldn’t bring myself to cut off the European plug fitted to the machine, so I had to wait nearly a week before a Continental to UK plug adapter arrived courtesy of Amazon UK.   It would have been heresy to use a set of cutters on such a pristine object.

The first thing I did when I received each Byrnes tool was to take it to my local electrician to (1) ensure it complied with Australian standards, and (2) to have the power plug changed to an Australian one. Not that I am worried about the quality of Jim's workmanship - far from it. I need to have it certified for my home and contents insurance. And I like the convenience of not having to use an adapter.

Edited July 20, 2016 by KeithW

[Modeler12]

I just received my table saw from Jim and like what I see and have done with it thus far.

Here are a few comments, not necessarily critical but suggestions for improvements in the 'instruction sheets' that are part of the package.

 

1. Page 2 'Operation'. The 1/4 inch allen key is huge (too long) and the diagram does not show it nor where it is supposed to go into.

 

2. Some pictures would help to identify the components. The diagram included is a good start but not enough.

 

3. The Lubrication of the shaft and knuckles of the u-joint is fine, but where are they? You have to turn the machine on edge to see the large opening in the base and locate those parts. When you do, you can see how the yoke swings the blade up or down and also the locking bolt at the pivot point.

 

4. To change blades I had to remove the table insert, then loosen the two nuts (next to the blade and at the end of the shaft). Then I turned the machine on edge to get to the blade and washers. This is not difficult but it took me a while to see how to do this.

 

I took the following pictures for my own benefit. Notice the plywood table insert which I use with the fine blade as a 'zero clearance' table. I will use the carbide blade for rough and large cuts and then this fine blade for cutting strips. So, changing blades will happen often.

 

 

 

 

 

To be sure, the machine is great and the cuts I have made are nice and uniform. 
One thing I have added is a simple cover for the large opening in the base. This is where saw dust came through and spread all over the counter top. The dust port does not work well unless you do that.

[GuntherMT]

I just received my table saw from Jim and like what I see and have done with it thus far.

Here are a few comments, not necessarily critical but suggestions for improvements in the 'instruction sheets' that are part of the package.

 

4. To change blades I had to remove the table insert, then loosen the two nuts (next to the blade and at the end of the shaft). Then I turned the machine on edge to get to the blade and washers. This is not difficult but it took me a while to see how to do this.

 

One thing I have added is a simple cover for the large opening in the base. This is where saw dust came through and spread all over the counter top. The dust port does not work well unless you do that.

 

I'm curious as to why you needed to remove the insert to change blades?  I've changed blades multiple times and as long as I've lowered the blade via the blade adjustment first, I've never had to remove the insert to make the change.

 

I don't get any dust out the bottom of the saw at all in operation when attached to my shop-vac, so maybe your vacuum isn't performing well?  The only dust I have to collect after sawing is when using the carbide blade for large cuts, a lot of debris is created that doesn't drop down into the area served by the dust collection port (i.e. it remains on top of the saw).

[Modeler12]

I'm curious as to why you needed to remove the insert to change blades?  I've changed blades multiple times and as long as I've lowered the blade via the blade adjustment first, I've never had to remove the insert to make the change.

 

I don't get any dust out the bottom of the saw at all in operation when attached to my shop-vac, so maybe your vacuum isn't performing well?  The only dust I have to collect after sawing is when using the carbide blade for large cuts, a lot of debris is created that doesn't drop down into the area served by the dust collection port (i.e. it remains on top of the saw).

When I change blades I have to replace the insert anyway. So, to remove it first makes it easier to get to the nut that holds the blade on the arbor. Notice I made new inserts for the thin blades I have. I just like to have as much support on the table as I can get.

Jim's instructions also suggest to remove the insert when changing blades

 

As yet I don't have a shop vacuum attached, but by having the bottom covered I should get a lot more suction and a cleaner box when I get to that point. The cover I am talking about is a simple piece of cardboard held in place with a piece of tape for now.

Edited August 25, 2016 by Modeler12

[Julie Mo]

I'm kind of a Festool nut.  They are probably the most expensive tool you can buy for the type of tool you need or want but they are very high quality and last forever.  Festool addicts like to say, "It only hurts once, then you enjoy it for life."  I've never regretted buying quality tools but I have regretted buying cheap tools.

 

Should this message put you over the edge and you get into trouble for buying the Byrnes, this member will disavow any knowledge of your actions.  Good luck, Boyd.

[WackoWolf]

You get what you paid for, and with a Brynes table saw it is worth more than what you paid. Just ask and anyone that owns one, they will tell you.

Edited August 25, 2016 by WackoWolf

[glbarlow]

I have both the Byrnes saw and disc sander.  They are more than worth the cost, spending money on any other saw is a waste.  I find many uses for both and frankly don't know what I'd do without them or how I did anything before I got them.  

 

There are 4 pages of replies as testament to how good they are.  The answer to you question is yes, you absolutely need them.

[jaka44]

How long do slitting blades generally last?  I have to sharpen mine (by hand) frequently.  

Edited August 26, 2016 by jaka44

[ca.shipwright]

How long slitting blades will depend a lot on what wood you are milling. Basswood, and other soft woods and the blade will last almost forever. Ebony about 20 minutes. (a note- ebony dust is toxic and you should use a mask or respirator). I mill a lot of boxwood and walnut and I get several months out of the .040 blade, less if I am too lazy to put in the .020 blade. I never have had any luck sharpening the slitting blades. I just order more.

 

You cannot buy a better machine then what Jim makes. Period.

 

Remember, a good tool becomes an heirloom.

[Modeler12]

Indeed the machine is great. But I did not like the long allen head wrench.

However, the allen head wrench that I have was too short. Instead of buying another set, I took a longer bolt as shown below. This way I can leave the wrench in place (a little snug fit).

   

I should have noted that this is to lock the blade in its up/down position.

The pictures are not very clear about this since the machine was turned on edge.

Now the 'new' allen wrench is underneath the table to the right. This allows the blade to be 'locked' in place.

Edited September 23, 2016 by Modeler12

[Julie Mo]

If I may ask, how does this TS cut veneer that is not flat?

[Modeler12]

You asked and I tried it. The piece I used was not really warped but it was definitely not flat.

 

I simply cut it on the saw holding it down with a push stick as I fed it with my left hand. It worked but could probably work better if I used a piece of thin stock on top of the veneer to hold it down on the table. I am sure it also depends on how long and narrow you want to cut it.

 

[Julie Mo]

You asked and I tried it. The piece I used was not really warped but it was definitely not flat.

 

I simply cut it on the saw holding it down with a push stick as I fed it with my left hand. It worked but could probably work better if I used a piece of thin stock on top of the veneer to hold it down on the table. I am sure it also depends on how long and narrow you want to cut it.

Thanks, Jay.  I was just curious if a specialized TS like the Byrnes could eliminate the binding problems I'm having.

 

I noticed the blade on your TS looks like a small version of a standard size TS blade, with teeth wider than the body of the blade.  I think where I may be having binding problems is with the blade I'm using on a jobsite TS.  The blade has a kerf of .023" and so does the outer inch or so of the blade body.  There is no kerf "overhang", if you will.  I have a block holding the veneer down but it still binds.  

 

 

[ca.shipwright]

You can try this:

Pace the veneer on the saw and set your rip fence. Then take a piece of sacrificial wood that will cover the free side of the blade for about 1 inch and rest up against the fence. Raise the blade just high enough to cut into the sacrificial wood. You should also use a zero clearance insert on the table saw. Use a push down to keep the 2 layers tight. Run the sandwich through the saw.

 

Hope this helps

[gjdale]

Julie Mo,

 

The binding problem is being caused by exactly the reason you have described. To avoid this, you can either add a degree of back taper to your fence (ie move the back of the fence slightly away from the blade), or add a "half fence" to the leading side (a fence that finishes just before the middle of the saw blade). This will give the cut portion of the strip space without binding against the blade.

[Julie Mo]

Grant, I went to check the fence alignment.  I never bothered to check it because, unlike my big table saw, the fence is fixed.  I found it was back tapered .010" from the blade.  I also found the zero clearance insert I made for that blade had a dip in it.  I have a block of oak over the blade to keep the veneer down so I couldn't see it.  But when I removed the oak block I found it.  We'll have to see how the fixes worked. 

 

Michael, if the corrections I made don't work, I will give your method a try.  As long as the sacrificial piece holds onto the veneer, it should work.

 

Thanks guys!

[Jaager]

If the veneer is thin enough, I would try a steel straight edge ( there are wide - 2" - flat ones, with a tapered edge 6" & 12" ) and a sharp #11 blade.

Cut thru or score and snap and there is no loss to kerf.

 

I have a Byrnes saw and find it far superior to a Jarmac or a Dremel - no comparison really.  The Byrnes is a precision tool, but it is

only as good as the blades allow.  A 3 or 4 inch rip blade that hollow ground would be nice to have.

Edited September 22, 2016 by Jaager

[Q A's Revenge]

my only comment is it is very difficult to cut out a curved frame or any part with curves with a table saw. Personally i never owned a hobby table saw and never missed having one. my first purchase was a 10 inch band saw you can cut curves pieces as well as resaw with it. Multi tasking.

my very first planked hull i ripped the planking material down with a small bandsaw then planked up the hull. Yes some planks were thicker some thinner, they had saw makes on the surface. Step two i used a $2.98 pack of sand paper and sanded that hull smooth as glass. Could i have done any better with all the fancy power tools? nope only faster and to be honest i am in no hurry. I am an artisan not a machinist. 

So do you need a table saw? not really

I'm given to understand that In years gone by the Bandsaw was regarded as the "king of saws" for the very reasons you've mentioned. I would have thought a modest bandsaw would be far more useful.

[Modeler12]

I have cut veneer many times and found that a band-saw or jig-saw are the worst means of cutting an accurate piece without tearing the edges. It requires a very fine tooth such as a 'metal blade' and a zero clearance table insert. To have to change the blade and insert is for me too much of a hassle. A razor blade, scalpel or exacto knife with a good straightedge is much simpler. For curved pieces you could make a template if there are enough pieces involved.

Julie Mo asked how the Byrnes TS works and I think it is fine for cutting multiple strips of veneer that are narrow.

[Julie Mo]

If the veneer is thin enough, I would try a steel straight edge ( there are wide - 2" - flat ones, with a tapered edge 6" & 12" ) and a sharp #11 blade.

Cut thru or score and snap and there is no loss to kerf.

I tried an aluminum ruler with an X-acto knife but it had a tendency to follow the grain.  If I pressed the blade too hard against the ruler, it would start shaving off the aluminum.  I tried a veneer saw but it was too time consuming.  I also tried a veneer cutter

but it couldn't cut perfectly straight edges without taking several passes.

 

For full size projects, if I want parallel and straight, I go to the table saw.  I can never get results as good with a bandsaw.  Some woodworkers got rid of their tablesaws and use bandsaws exclusively and swear they can cut edges just as good with the bandsaw as with the tablesaw but I have never found that to be true.

 

I think you can pull off cutting planking on a full size tablesaw as long as you have a perfectly flat, zero clearance insert, a perfectly straight fence that sits flush to the table and parallel to the blade, and a rip blade with a very thin kerf.  The last one on that list, though, is a tough find.  

[jaka44]

Hi Julie Mo.  The Byrnes saw does a great job ripping 1/42" veneer.

 

 

I start with a zero clearance insert with a fine tooth blade and a metal ruler clamped to the fence to stop the veneer from sliding under.  I also removed the blade guard and use the end of it keep the veneer from riding up the blade.

 

 

This is the blade I used.  It's 63mm (diameter) x .2mm (kerf) with a 16mm or 5/8" arbor.  You also need an arbor adapter that you can buy from Jim.

 

 

The strip is 2 mm wide.  I don't get any binding doing it this way.  I'm using a slitting blade so the teeth are the same kerf as the blade part, so the blade isn't necessarily the problem you're facing.  Are you using anything on your fence so the wood doesn't get under?

 

 

Here is a pic of the two ends together to show the accuracy across the length of the strip.

 

 

The saw can cleanly cut miters even on a strip this small.  

[Modeler12]

Very impressive Jaka44.

 

The blade Jaka44 shows is made by Schuler http://www.slitting-saw.com/

I have used several different blades made by Thurston http://www.thurstonmfg.com/jewelers-slotting-saws.html

 

I believe Jim uses the Thurston blades that have the 1/2 inch arbor hole and are 3 inches in diameter. They come in several thicknesses ranging from super thin 0.006 inch on up. I typically use #99 at 0.032 inch thickness and 18 teeth per inch. For cutting veneer I go along with Jaka and would use a very thin blade with lots of TPI and I also would reduce the blade diameter to 2.0 inches (#71). I would also minimize the height of the blade above the table. About 1/8 inch would be enough.

 

Perhaps Jim has improved on the fence, because on my saw I don't need to add the ruler. The fence sits very snugly on the table.

Correction about the two inch diameter blade. Make that 2.5 inch diameter, because two inches just barely clears the top of the table. Hence Thurston #92 would be better.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Modeler12

[Landlocked123]

Hi Julie,

 

I use the Crown Veneer Saw and a steel straight edge. The saw blade is extremely thin with very fine teeth with no set. It's quite well made, works very well, and is another "fix" for my tool addiction. It's available on Amazon for about $20.

 

Best,

John

 

Ps. I looked at the Festool site and besides being insanely expensive they don't appear to sell any bench top power tools suitable for model ship building. As for using a 10" TS to mill wood for model ship building, without impracticality thin kerfs, the waste factor is enormous. BTW, Jim's saw is very precise, runs as quietly and smoothly as a fine sewing machine, and has the power of a Hemi. J.

 

 

Edited September 23, 2016 by Landlocked123

[Julie Mo]

Hi Julie Mo.  The Byrnes saw does a great job ripping 1/42" veneer.

 

I start with a zero clearance insert with a fine tooth blade and a metal ruler clamped to the fence to stop the veneer from sliding under.  I also removed the blade guard and use the end of it keep the veneer from riding up the blade.

 

This is the blade I used.  It's 63mm (diameter) x .2mm (kerf) with a 16mm or 5/8" arbor.  You also need an arbor adapter that you can buy from Jim.

 

The strip is 2 mm wide.  I don't get any binding doing it this way.  I'm using a slitting blade so the teeth are the same kerf as the blade part, so the blade isn't necessarily the problem you're facing.  Are you using anything on your fence so the wood doesn't get under?

 

Here is a pic of the two ends together to show the accuracy across the length of the strip.

 

The saw can cleanly cut miters even on a strip this small.  

Thank you for taking the time to create that pictorial.  Obviously the Byrnes is well suited for cutting modeling woods.  It is, however, a substantial investment.  Maybe if we weren't remodeling the house, I would consider the purchase but for now I will have to improvise.

 

The veneer in your photo looks very flat.  I managed to flatten the veneer I have in hopes of that making a difference.  It didn't.

 

I had no idea those blades had a 5/8" arbor.  But their outside diameter may not be enough to use on a full size tablesaw.  

 

I have played with a lot of different methods but none seem to resolve the binding problem.  The fence sits tight against the zero-clearance insert (I had to trim the fence to compensate for the slight sag in the insert), so that's not the problem.  I am considering making up a wooden riving knife and gluing it into the insert.  The flexibility of the veneer makes it too easy to bend, unlike more substantially sized lumber where all you have to do is keep the wood against the infeed side of the fence to ensure straightness.

[captainbob]

Back in may of 2013 there was a fine thread on thin cuts being made with full sized TS's. 

 

http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/932-cutting-thin-slices-of-wood/?hl=mott#entry19698

 

Bob

[kurtvd19]

Julie Mo - I used my Byrnes saw to do all of the wood trim in my 2nd floor addition.  Cut the 3/4" Oak like it was butter.  Best part of using it was that it was easy to carry from room to room rather than walking back and forth to my 12" trim saw that kicks up way too much sawdust.

Kurt