Model prices vs quality

[Flypast]

Hello,

I hope this question has not already been asked elsewhere.

I must say first up that i suffer from several serious emotional disorders, the most dangerous being FOMO.

So, having discovered ship building and not long ago purchased my first kit, i have been looking at several different manufacturers and comparing similar subjects.

I am looking at adding to my stash for a rainy day, and for a time when my skills are sufficient.😏

So my question is, what differences are there between a $1700 model and one that is less than half that ?

e.g  A Caldercraft Victory .....not a cheap kit. 

What does one get for a kit that is, in some cases, more than double in price of others.

I can guess probably the obvious....wood quality, scale.

Can anybody enlighten me as to the differences in a kit with such a price difference.

I am new to this hobby and maybe somewhat naive 😐

 

Regards

JR.

 

[Jaager]

OK  I will start the debate with the following proposition:

 

I have no data to back this up, but for most any assembled kit, the quality of the build is almost a non factor, provided that it meets an acceptable standard.  The sale price would probably be about the same as the retail price of the original kit.  For a $1700 Victory, I doubt that the compensation would even reach that amount.  Those with money to burn will want something original.  Victory, Sovereign of the Seas, or Constitution are anything but original, unique, or rare.  Those likely to value these particular ships are also those most likely to purchase a kit and build it themselves.

Being realistic,  you will never be paid what is needed to cover the number of hours - even at present minimum wage. 

 

A few years ago, I came across a guy selling half model plagues at a crafts fair.   If you develop a quick and dirty technique that is ruthlessly  efficient,  that may be a way to make a profit.  I suspect that all of the present noise is obscuring a substantial and increasing velocity economic change.  One that will have much in common with pre-WWII.  Is the return of a room in a boarding house as one of the few affordable sources of shelter that far away?  The point is that the time when many had money to burn on an expensive decoration may be fading fast.

 

 

[shipman]

So perceptive.

[Bob Cleek]

In case you were asking what the modeler gets out of a more expensive kit, I'd say the answer is, "It depends." The very expensive kits generally contain better instructions, more historical accuracy, more detail, more complexity, more castings, and better quality materials. Mind you, though, that I have never bought a very expensive kit model. In my mind, it's something of a "Catch-22." I'm convinced that there are far more kits sold than are ever built. I really don't know why many modelers "build a stash" of un-built or half-built models. That said, buying a model you intend to build before you will have time to build it may make sense if the price is right, but, frankly, for some it appears to be something of a hoarding disorder. Few beginning or even intermediate modelers have the skill and experience to do justice to a $1,700 model. (And I'm sure somebody will say, "I do!" which is exactly why the manufacturers keep churning them out.) Those who have the skill and experience (not to mention the tools and machinery necessary to supplement "what comes in the box" of any kit to even begin to match the glossy colored picture on the kit box) will generally have long since abandoned assembling kits for building models, anyway. Kits have their place. They are ship modeling's "gateway drug" and some of the less challenging high quality kits (e.g. anything from Syren) are the very best way to gain skill and experience and at the same time end up with a beautiful model if it's done well, but it's generally the newer modelers who lust after a Victory or a Constitution and if ship models were restaurants, Victory and Constitution would be McDonald's and Starbucks.

 

As for the value of the finished product of an expensive kit, I doubt there are many who would pay $1,700 for an assembled ship model kit under any circumstances unless they were really conned into paying that much. In any event, people who are not knowledgeable collectors don't pay $1,700 for anything to set on their mantles and people who are knowledgeable collectors have no interest in paying much of anything for a model that is not a scratch-built historically accurate unique one-off example made by  a known top modeler to state of the art archival standards. (And more often than not such models are commissioned directly from the modeler.) 

 

Fine models are like fine art in terms of their value to those who might buy them. Kit models appeal to some who build for their own satisfaction alone, and that's fine, but unless they are done with a high level of skill, they are pretty much in the same category as paint-by-numbers oil paintings. They may look like the Mona Lisa if they are really done well, but most are just "Elvis" on black velvet in terms of monetary value.

 

By these comments, I certainly don't intend to denigrate those who build kits. I've built many, as everyone has over the years, but given the limitations of selling ship model kits as a business model, particularly with the inroads made by foreign "pirates" who steal the kit designers' intellectual property, it appears to me at least that the way the ship modeling game is trending over the long haul, the momentary impetus provided by "pandemic boredom" notwithstanding, is increasingly towards scratch-building a far less numerous output of unique "fine art"-level models. Kit manufacturers are struggling to realize a profit and the "aftermarket" vendors of pre-milled wood and fittings have been dropping like flies in recent years. Maybe that's why the smart kit fans all have "stashes," come to think of it!  

 

P.S.: If you want to see what can be done with a relatively simple quality model that's not particularly expensive... if you add after-market blocks and rigging line, etc., check out this beautiful job: 

 

Edited February 16, 2021 by Bob Cleek

[Flypast]

1 hour ago, Bob Cleek said:

In case you were asking what the modeler gets out of a more expensive kit, I'd say the answer is, "It depends." The very expensive kits generally contain better instructions, more historical accuracy, more detail, more complexity, more castings, and better quality materials

 

Thanks Bob, thats what i thought.

 

I must confess that i do have a large "stash" of kits and models. Being a modeler "and" a collector for decades now, i have amassed what could be considered an almost absurd amount.

I have noticed that companies are dissapearing and "Fear of missing out" always wins.

I am only interested in building for myself and have never harboured any aspirations to sell.

True, i have limited expierence building wooden ships but am no stranger to scratch building and following plans and instructions. My thought are that, i would stock up on a number of models while they are still readily available to build at a later stage when im ready to do them justice.

 

Thanks again

JR

 

[jwvolz]

Thanks for linking my build in here Bob, I appreciate that. 

[Matt D]

JR, I too suffer from FOMO.  I have to constantly restrain myself from buying kits I’m not ready to build.  By not ready, I mean I’m already working on a model and don’t really want to try to have two going.  There are pluses and minuses to that.  Occasionally, kits are discontinued and can’t be found later.  But it looks to me like more often than not, the most desirable kits get upgraded or get fixed if they previously had problems.  So it’s better to wait and assume that anything I missed out on was probably a bad kit anyway.  I feel like right now is an exciting time for kit or semi-kit (semi-scratch) builders because of the new products coming out from Syren, Vanguard, and CAFmodel.  So I don’t want a mountain of kits clogging up my shelf when I know there are more interesting things coming by the time I’m ready to build them.  
 

With regard to prices, it seems to me that kit prices go up as a function of size, detail, and quality of materials.

[Cathead]

As with many (most?) consumer products, expensive does not guarantee proportional quality, but cheapness likely guarantees low quality. The middle ground is often where you want to be. Do not underestimate the frustrations that a low-quality kit can produce in terms of poor or insufficient materials, bad kit design, and/or incomprehensible instructions. A well-done kit will have well-presented instructions, proper materials, and a sensible kit design. Providing you are not insisting on building only the most massive ships of the line or modern battleships, you can get such kits direct from retailers for sensible prices (Bluejacket, Model Shipways, Syren, and Caldercraft come immediately to mind). Getting addicted to bargain-hunting has a higher chance of wasting your time and money than saving it. There are threads elsewhere on MSW that discuss kit and manufacturer reviews.

 

As for stashing, I too cannot understand this practice. If nothing else, consider that kit design and manufacturing has (and presumably will) continue to improve over time. So if you bought a kit 15 years ago and stashed it in the closet (or bought a 15-year-old kit online in an attempt to save money), you'll end up with a lower-quality kit than if you bought the modern, upgraded version. For example, the newer kit might have better laser-cut parts, higher quality metal castings, and improved instructions.

 

As a personal opinion, I'd recommend in the strongest terms buying only what you can build in a reasonable time. In the unlikely chance that you miss out on a dream kit because the company failed, chances are kits will still be circulating online for a long time (due to all the other hoarders).

 

Also, your skill sets, interests, and life circumstances can change, which is more likely than that you'll actually build a whole hoard of kits. You might choose to develop your skills toward scratch-building, a transition many of us make as it lets us make a unique model free from the design constraints of manufacturers. Or you might learn a new skill or hobby that leaves old ones behind. For example, I still have a few plastic ship kits sitting around that I never built because I discovered wooden modeling; I bought them with full intention of building them, but life changed and now they represent a waste of money that I have no interest in building because I've moved on. 

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

My mom used to say to me, "All things in moderation." ... good words to live by.  As with any hobby, do what you're interested in for your own satisfaction - and don't get so carried away that you neglect the other commitments in your life.  It was said, "Do not compare yourself to others, for there will always be those greater or lesser than yourself."

[Gregory]

One more thing I don't see mentioned, is that in general, the more expensive kits took more to develop,

 

Thousands of man-hours for something like the Caldercraft Victory.   The higher retail price helps recover that cost, hopefully make a profit

and keep them in business.

 

This is a prime concern when it comes to knock off kits - the producer did not incur those development costs, and their sales price is virtually all profit after a few kits are sold..

[Mike Dowling]

Excuse my ignorance (and I somehow feel I going going to feel stupid for asking but ) what is FOMO ?

[amateur]

Google is your best friiend: Fear Of Missing Out

 

(mind you, this kit is probably sold out when I have time to build it. 

I think it is rather 'stupid strategy': look at the tremendous increase in the quality of kits. Why should you build a kit that is lagging decades behind in term of quality....?

Kind of: Sorry, have to build 6 Aeropicolla kits, and 4 Billings before I can turn my attention to the latest Syren or Vanguard.

 

Jan

[Roger Pellett]

In 1950, my mother took me to the auditorium in O’Neils Department Store in Akron, Ohio to see a traveling exhibit of model ships.  These models, built by a renown builder named August Crabtree are now a Crown Jewel in the Collection of the Mariners Museum in Newport News, Virginia.  That experience and the presence of models at home built my father convinced me that I wanted to build model ships.  I have been trying to do so ever since.

 

As soon as I graduated from college, I started to amass a collection of tools. As a newly minted USNR Ensign, one of the few things that I owned to be shipped to my duty station was my toolbox.  I still have and use many of these tools.  Over the intervening years, I have gradually outfitted what I consider to be a first class workshop without stress to personal finances. To the contrary, these tools have paid for themselves several times over completing dozens of projects unrelated to ship modeling.  I should add that I live in a region where homes with space for a workshop are the norm.

 

Complimenting my tool collection is a collection of books that I began buying in the 1960’s.  I consider these to also be essential to the building of quality models.

 

My point is that $1700 will buy a lot of tools and books.   The quality of many of the completed kits built by members of this forum is astonishing!  I can only marvel at the talents and skills that I lack that went into building these, but in the end they are still kits.  If your circumstances allow, spend your money building a proper workshop and library, and build something unique from scratch.

[allanyed]

An alternative is to spend the money on supplies that are starting to disappear and consider scratch building for a number of reasons from historical accuracy, the pleasure of researching and possibly working on drawings as needed, and the satisfaction of having built something that few others, if any, have ever built before.  The money for a good quality kit will pay for a lot of materials and the occasional new tool.   Even materials such as Castello, European box, holly and some others are getting harder to find and more expensive than ever.   When I get the FOMO feeling I look for wood and tools and it feels like my birthday every time they show up at the door!!   

 

In the end, choose the route  which will make you happiest.  Some people spend hundreds or  thousands on stamps or coins that will only be looked at once in a while and certainly never used, so doing the same with a kit, or supplies even, is really not so different.

Allan

Edited February 16, 2021 by allanyed

[Flypast]

And diverse and sensible range of veiws and comment /  suggestions. 

Very helpful and welcome.

 

Many thanks

 

JR

[knightyo]

I would pay $1,700 for tools, not for kits, as with the tools you'll be able to create a FAR better looking model (and many in the future) than relying upon what is in the box with a kit.  If it was me, the first kit I'd ever buy would either be from Chuck at Syren, or Chris at Vanguard.  I can speak to Chuck's instruction, and it is absolutely superb.   I suspect that Chris' instruction is also fantastic just by reading his posts.

 

Alan

[turangi]

Very interesting thread! I have a small stash of kits, four. I don't build kits with any anticipation of selling the completed model or selling the unopened kit for a profit, I buy them for my own pleasure and satisfaction. I don't own any $1,700 kits and have bought all on sale at a great discount at a modest price because the subject interested me. I don't want a huge stash and only buy those I think I can complete in a reasonable amount of time. My wife passed away suddenly in 2015 and the following year I went through six months of chemotherapy. Due to the chemo I suffered neuropathy and lost the feeling in my fingers and started wooden ship building as a form of self-prescribed therapy , it helped immensely with both my physical issues and filled many empty hours especially with the last pandemic year. I thoroughly enjoy the hobby and am very glad I undertook it. I have purchased a modicum of tools and no power tools but manage to muddle through.

 

I will never reach the point of scratch building but occasionally do a bit of custom work, usually due a mistake I need to correct!    

[Roger Pellett]

Why is it that when we want to buy something it is desirable and scarce, but when we try to sell it it’s common, defective, junk?

[Bob Cleek]

41 minutes ago, Roger Pellett said:

Why is it that when we want to buy something it is desirable and scarce, but when we try to sell it it’s common, defective, junk?

 

That, my friend, is what they call salesmanship!   

Edited February 17, 2021 by Bob Cleek

[Mike Dowling]

Thank you for the reply about FOMO.I wouldn't have guessed that so at least I don't fell so stupid now!

[Baltic_submariner]

In case of plastic modelling I literally stashed tens of boxes ( mostly submarines in 1:350 and some tanks ) just in case because in six months I maybe want to build "X" variants of such class ect. like I made about 5 variants of each Gato's and B-class submarines. Now some of this unbuilded kits are very rare and I could definitely monetize them if I want but "inner hamster" won ( not sure did it's understandable in English as it's in my language ) Of course I never will be able to build them all but FOMO as said others is real threat.

 

I always make research about kit which interesting me to avoid "suprises" as like others said price not always determines quality. In case of wood kits I always look for reviews, opinions, build logs and thats why I discovered MSW. Before I bought my first wooden model ( Saint Malo dory boat from Artesania Latina ) I read many internet topics ( I was wondering also about Bounty Jolly and Bon Retour from same manufacturer ) Unfortunately nobody in my city from fellow scale modelers ( I think I know majority of modellers in my city ) make wooden ships - everybody only make tanks and planes ( only ship modeller in city ) so I was forced to lone wolf search. I wanted to make wise decision to avoid entering into problems. I think rational approach is best tool as it's not a problem to sink thousands of Dollars/Euro/Pounds ect. into "dreamed" kit and then curse using "famous words on certain letters". I have only 3 kits on stash ( two ship of the line Capitan boats and one yacht ), before making an order I searched a lot for informations about them and I try to choose smaller kits due to not many place for models in my flat. So far my list of ships which I want to build is rather short but I afraid that some stories can change this. Am I strange if I often choose models because their story captivated me? 

 

About scratch ect. I'm afraid that I will must enter this zone at one time as few ships about which I dream are not made by any manufacturer ( too niche to even care for western manufacturers ) but they exist as paper models ( pretty popular genre in country ) so I think some rescaling, many plywood and my wish can afford this at some point. After longer thinking I concluded that such build could be much cheaper than average kit.