Duchess of Kingston by Delf - FINISHED - Vanguard Models - 1:64 - Boxwood version

[Blue Ensign]

I wonder if Chris can throw any light on the arrangement which does look a little out of the norm for ratlines to cross that span.

 

What is the scale distance between  the shrouds either side of the gun port?

 

B.E.

[chris watton]

My gut instinct told me the ratlines would have spanned all shrouds, so that's how I show them.

[Vane]

It looks amazing in boxwood! 

 

[DelF]

15 hours ago, Blue Ensign said:

What is the scale distance between  the shrouds either side of the gun port?

The widest distance a ratline would have spanned on the main shrouds was 3' 9" (1.15m) and on the fore shrouds 3' 6" (1.06m). Those widths don't sound too extreme - they just look odd compared to the ratlines on either side, where the deadeyes on the channels are virtually touching and consequently the ratlines are very short.

 

Derek 

[Blue Ensign]

Hi Derek I've scoured my reference books looking for a comparable arrangement and the nearest thing I came across was this painting by  John Cleveley the elder, of a sloop dated around 1740.

As you can see the  ratlines do span the larger distances between 3 and 4 and 4 and 5

 

I think I would have to try them across all shrouds and make an aesthetic decision based on how it looked to my eye.

One other thought, the space on the Duchess  aftermost shrouds is quite narrow, and ratlines purely between those two shrouds may  look very cramped.

 

Regards,

 

B.E.

[DelF]

2 hours ago, Blue Ensign said:

As you can see the  ratlines do span the larger distances between 3 and 4 and 4 and 5

Very helpful thanks. I think a final decision may depend on how neatly I can rig the wider ratlines. They have the potential to look very messy. 

 

Derek

Edited June 6, 2022 by DelF

[glbarlow]

Can’t go wrong either way, since no sailors will be climbing them it’s whatever you think looks best on the shelf. 

[desalgu]

Interesting discussion about ratlines and a problem I'll run into at some point (got distracted & I'm progressing very slowly).  Seems like it would look odd having ratlines not evenly spaced, but since full scale the span is less than 4 ft, they might have done it that way.  Might have been easier to rig with one line all the way across.  But I agree that the sailors probably went up and down one side or the other, and the middle wasn't ever used.  Might be easier to keep them aligned going all the way across, but getting thread to hang like rope across the longer span seems like it would be difficult.   Just me, but I'm not a fan of leaving off the middle ratlines only on the lower part.  

 

It will be something to think about before I get to that point.  Might be best to experiment and see what it looks like.  I'm sure it will look good whichever way you decide to do it.  

 

I'm constantly amazed at how you do rigging, for example, how you seize the shrouds and the knots involved.  I reviewed your Speedy log, and all I can say is "Wow!"  I will probably opt for a slightly simpler method that will look somewhat right.  Otherwise, I'm not sure I'd live long enough to finish!  😅

 

[DelF]

Shrouds

 

We've had friends visiting followed by a holiday in North Wales so I've had little time with the Duchess this month. However I've just finished the shrouds and can now look forward (?) to a few days of fun with ratlines. 

On 6/8/2022 at 5:21 AM, desalgu said:

 I will probably opt for a slightly simpler method that will look somewhat right.

Thank you for your kind compliments David. I would encourage you to have a go at the seizings I use on the shrouds - I think the two crossing turns neaten the end result and add to the authenticity, and I don't believe they need to be too difficult. On Speedy I started trying to replicate full-size practice, using this method:

However, I eventually decided it was too bulky (and time consuming!) and developed a simpler version which I described here in the log. With practice this method becomes quite quick and straightforward, and I'm reasonably pleased with the results on the Duchess:

 

I still think the 0.5mm lanyards look slightly heavy in close ups, but they're OK at a distance.

 

Roll on those ratlines!

 

Derek

[glbarlow]

Your Duchess is featured on MSW’s Facebook post today, congratulations 🎊

[DelF]

Futtock staves & lower mast stays

 

Before getting on with the ratlines I realised I needed to fit the futtock staves. Those fitted, I then decided to fit the lower mast stays while access was still reasonable. Also, given the extreme rake of the mizzen mast I was concerned that without the lower stay in place it was leaning too far back and touching the binnacle. 

 

I think I picked up the method for fitting the futtock staves from @glennard2523. Much easier to hold a long length of brass rod against the shrouds than trying to seize a short piece. When I'm rigging on the ship I find it better to take the quadhands off their big base and use them individually - in this photo the one holding the brass rod is stuck to a heavy piece of scrap steel:

 

 

I made the stays on my Syren ropewalk and serving machine. The upper part of each lower stay would have been served to about six feet below the mouse. I dry fitted each stay to judge this distance then served them using Gutermann Mara #150, leaving a long length of serving line free at the end where I wanted to form the eye. I cut this end at an angle:

...made a loop in the end, held by a clamp:

...wound the excess serving line round and soaked the join in dilute PVA:

...and trimmed to produce the eye:

I made the mice (mouses?meeces?) on the Proxxon lathe from a wooden rod with a hole drilled through the middle:

 

I shaped each mouse using small turning tools (as described in my Speedy log, here) and files, aiming for an outside diameter about three times that of the stay. I secured the mouses in position using pva, and when set rigged the lower end of each stay using deadeyes and lanyards exactly as for shrouds. Here's the main preventer stay rigged to the foremast with the mainstay visible just above it.

...and all the lower stays rigged:

One minor point of interest is the fore preventer stay, which I thought should normally sit above the forestay. Chris's plans show it below, and when I checked Rigging of English Ships of War Lees notes that this was sometimes the case on smaller ships.  I should have known - Chris is usually right!

 

On to the ratlines (unless I can discover some more displacement activity )

 

Derek

 

Edited July 14, 2022 by DelF
Link to Speedy log inserted

[glbarlow]

3 minutes ago, DelF said:

scrap steel:

I checked, I don’t have any scrap steel. Your garage must be a haven for all things modeling 😳😊

 

As always you set the standard for rigging. Anyone needing any help with any model should consult your Speedy and Duchess builds for techniques, methods, and how to achieve them. 

[DelF]

1 hour ago, glbarlow said:

Your garage must be a haven for all things modeling

It's full of junk (aka items waiting to be repurposed). Ironically, the scrap steel came from my wife. She was upgrading a die cutting machine (one of her craft tools - she's nearly as bad a toolaholic as me) so I stripped her old one for useful parts. I found several useful heavy lumps of steel, all now pressed into service:

  

1 hour ago, glbarlow said:

As always you set the standard for rigging

Kind of you to say so Glenn. Coming from a master planksmith that's much appreciated. I enjoy trying to improve, but there's still a few people on the forum who's work I'd like to match.

 

Derek

Edited July 12, 2022 by DelF

[DocRob]

Great execution and presentation of your rigging work. Your log will help me a lot with my build, as rigging is like a new language for me to learn.

 

Cheers Rob

[H NELSON]

On 6/29/2022 at 9:07 PM, DelF said:

Shrouds

 

We've had friends visiting followed by a holiday in North Wales so I've had little time with the Duchess this month. However I've just finished the shrouds and can now look forward (?) to a few days of fun with ratlines. 

Thank you for your kind compliments David. I would encourage you to have a go at the seizings I use on the shrouds - I think the two crossing turns neaten the end result and add to the authenticity, and I don't believe they need to be too difficult. On Speedy I started trying to replicate full-size practice, using this method:

However, I eventually decided it was too bulky (and time consuming!) and developed a simpler version which I described here in the log. With practice this method becomes quite quick and straightforward, and I'm reasonably pleased with the results on the Duchess:

 

I still think the 0.5mm lanyards look slightly heavy in close ups, but they're OK at a distance.

 

Roll on those ratlines!

 

Derek

These photos are really helpful, thanks.

 

[DelF]

17 hours ago, DocRob said:

Your log will help me a lot with my build

 

2 hours ago, H NELSON said:

These photos are really helpful, thanks

You're both very welcome. I've learnt a great deal from this forum and I enjoy sharing my own efforts.

 

Derek 

[DelF]

Anchor cable

 

This will be my last post for a while as we fly to Vancouver tomorrow for the start of our Alaska cruise - subject to Covid testing, which is still a requirement for cruise passengers.

 

As a last little job before departure I managed to find some more displacement activity to avoid ratlines until our return. I wanted to fit the anchor cables before the deck became too cluttered so I set up the Rope Rocket to make my own. I felt the kit line was too heavy at 2mm. According to the usual references the circumference of a ship's bower anchor cable was 0.62 times the diameter of the main mast. So with an 8mm main mast the cable would be 4.96mm round and therefore 1.58mm in diameter. After some trial and error I made a length of 4-strand rope, each strand consisting of five lengths of Mara #70, given a final diameter of 1.50mm which I felt was close enough. I always prefer to go under rather than over-scale. I should add that I only set the ropewalk up to produce one metre of rope - no point wasting material!

 

Here's the result, and a comparison with the kit rope:

 

     

I threaded the cable through the hatch, then dry-fitted it to the deck to check it looked OK and would thread through the hawse holes:

I'm quite happy with that, so on return I'll dampen the cable down with some very dilute pva and hold it down with small weights while it dries.

 

I'm off to pack that saw so I cut smuggle some of that Alaskan Yellow Cedar 😁.

 

Derek

 

 

 

 

 

[glbarlow]

5 hours ago, DelF said:

Vancouver tomorrow for the start of our Alaska cruise

Ha. We’re going on an Alaskan cruise starting from Vancouver in September, let me know how it goes.  I hope you both have a great trip!

 

Don’t forget the hard shell golf bag carrier to fill with the Alaskan Yellow Cedar 😂

Edited July 20, 2022 by glbarlow

[DelF]

45 minutes ago, glbarlow said:

We’re going on an Alaskan cruise starting from Vancouver in September, let me know how it goes.  I hope you both have a great trip!

 

Thanks Glenn! 

 

46 minutes ago, glbarlow said:

Don’t forget the hard shell golf bag carrier to fill with the Alaskan Yellow Cedar 😂

Unfortunately I don't play golf. I'll try and persuade Karen to ditch half her clothes on the way back - that should give me room for about 20 or 30 pounds of timber 😁

[BenD]

While your anchor cable is not actual cable it's certainly better then the kit rope. If you twist three 0.8mm ropes together you should get a 1.6mm cable. Give it a try!

 

This ship is turning out beautifully. This boxwood version is really pleasing to the eye.

 

[DelF]

Anchor cables and lower ratlines

 

After a considerable break occasioned by holidays, visitors and other distractions I'm finally back in the workshop. 

 

As mentioned in my last update, I brushed some dilute (50:50) PVA on the anchor ropes and held them to the deck with small weights while they dried. I think the result has them lying more naturally:

 

Next, it was on to the lower ratlines. The less said about these the better. This is the fifth fully rigged model I've tackled and I would have hoped to improve my ratlines over that series. To my critical eye the Duchess is marginally better than my first model, but no better than the other three. In fact in some ways it's worse, as I found it very difficult to span the very wide gaps in the fore and main shrouds neatly.

 

Using Mara #100 line I started off rigging every fifth 'rung' as well as I could...

...but then found it impossible to maintain this level of neatness as I filled in the gaps:

I just hope the ratlines won't catch the eye quite as much when the rest of the rigging is in place.

 

One of these days I'll get it right - as the song says, "Things can only get better"! Despite being somewhat disappointed with the ratlines, I'm enjoying getting back to the workshop.

 

Derek

 

 

[glbarlow]

There’s nothing wrong with those ratlines, the play in them makes them look natural and used. You are the modeling world’s master model rigger. No matter the model your logs serve as a valuable reference and tutorial for rigging. 

Edited September 30, 2022 by glbarlow

[DelF]

Thanks for the kind words Glenn.

 

5 hours ago, glbarlow said:

...the play in them makes them look natural and used

Mmm...not sure I'm totally convinced. However if a perfectionist like you thinks the ratlines look OK I really ought to stop fretting about them. Thanks again! 

[VTHokiEE]

I think it looks really well done (ratlines included). Enjoyed seeing the update - did you use the PVA mix with synthetic rope? I thought you switched to gutermann Mara thread.

[DelF]

Thanks Tim, much appreciated.

 

9 hours ago, VTHokiEE said:

- did you use the PVA mix with synthetic rope? I thought you switched to gutermann Mara thread.

You're right, I use Mara for all my rope now. This link to an earlier post describes how I made the anchor cable from Mara #70. I haven't looked back since I started using Mara, and I certainly don't miss all the dyeing I had to do with the threads I previously used for rope making!

 

Derek

[harlequin]

i agree with previous comments about the ratlines....look fine to me.....

[VTHokiEE]

3 hours ago, DelF said:

an earlier post describes

Doh, of course it’s there - sadly I read that post so apparently my reading comprehension is steadily falling 😉.

 

I’ve always shied away from PVA with my synthetic rope (I use Mara as well - and will be tempted to try @BenD’s suggestion for making a cable someday to see if my eye can tell the difference). I suppose I’ll have to get back to experimenting eventually.

[HardeeHarHar]

Sorry to ask a lame question, but do you use half hitches on your ratlines?  Can you share how you go about doing them, or point me in the direction of a good description.  I am still a long way off from starting the ratlines on my build, but a guys got to worry about something, right?!? 😃

 

[DelF]

3 hours ago, VTHokiEE said:

I’ve always shied away from PVA with my synthetic rope (I use Mara as well

I find it works OK if diluted well, as I did with the anchor ropes. I tried it neat on the ratlines but it left a pale deposit so I went back to using shellac.

[DelF]

2 hours ago, HardeeHarHar said:

Sorry to ask a lame question, but do you use half hitches on your ratlines?  Can you share how you go about doing them, or point me in the direction of a good description. 

That's not a lame question. In trying to rig decent ratlines I've tried half hitches, overhand knots and cow hitches but I always end up using clove hitches. I believe that's what was used on real ships, and most modellers do the same. 

 

The best guide I've found is this youtube video: 

 

 

Couple of points to note. He's pinned some white card behind the shrouds which makes it much easier to see what you're doing. However he's using plain card whereas I prefer to use lined card to help me get the ratlines evenly spaced and parallel with the waterline. Here's an example:

Second, he starts with an overhand knot on the first shroud whereas I prefer to start as I mean to go on - with a clove hitch. 

 

It's very easy to tighten the ratlines as you work your way up, producing an hourglass shape in the shrouds which just looks wrong. One way to help avoid this is to rig the every fifth or sixth shroud first, then fill in the gaps. Some people draw lines on the card to represent the shrouds and use these to try to keep the shrouds straight. I find that more difficult, but you might find it worth trying. 

 

Couple of other points. I try to use the finest line I can for ratlines. In real life the lower ratlines would have been made from 1.5" line (that's circumference, ie less than 0.5" in diameter). On a model that's just under 0.20mm in diameter; any thicker looks too heavy, at least to my eye.

 

Also, I find the knots can slacken quite easily, so I usually put a dab of glue (I use dilute pva or shellac) on each knot as I finish each line.

 

Finally, if you tie each clove hitch the same way there's a danger that you'll end up with 'S' shaped 'rungs' in your ratlines. Here's a photo where I've tied some rope to a pair of door handles to illustrate the point:

 

You need to try to tweak each knot as you tie it to minimise this effect. 

 

Just out of interest, I tried tying alternate knots upside down which works for the first rung, producing a nice downward curve...

...unfortunately the next rung slopes up and looks worse than an S-bend!

 

I hope this is of some help. I suggest you look at the video then try practicing some knots. Practice really is the answer although I've been practicing for years and still can't do it to my own satisfaction!

 

Derek