Fokker D VIII by popeye the sailor - FINISHED - Comet - balsa flying model

[mtaylor]

Thanks for clearing that up, EG.   Been a long time since I lived in Dayton and memories get murky.

[Canute]

I look at the Wrights as the first systems engineers, melding airframe and powerplant design, doing their flight testing and trying to sell their designs.

 

One other oddity was they worked with wing warping to turn versus the later development of ailerons. I think Glenn Curtis was the aileron inventor or his aircraft made the early use of ailerons.

[Egilman]

Glen Curtis tried to patent the Aileron as a different method of control and failed.... The reason, the Wrights sued him for patent infringement and won...

 

The Wrights patented the method of controlling an aircraft based upon the physical sciences involved, not the mechanical means of doing it.... Wing Warping was one mechanical way of effecting wing surface curve control, not the only way.... They patented a scientific discovery, not a mechanical device....

 

Ailerons do exactly the same thing as wing warping does, they increase the curve of the wing causing more lift on one side over the other....

 

A simple change in the mechanical application doesn't change what is physically happening... Curtis made the argument that it was completely different, problem is he couldn't get around all that wind tunnel testing and charting of the coefficients of lift for different curves and shapes at different AOT's the Wrights did to get an accurate table of pressures... 

 

Wing Warping and Ailerons do exactly the same thing they increase the curvature of the upper wing surface thereby increasing the lift on that side of the aircraft given the angle of attack... The same thing happened when they tried to patent flaps and flaperons.... Modern control surfaces are just a different mechanical way of accomplishing the increase in lift that the Wrights proved....

 

The whole issue of patents became moot in 1917 when war was declared and the government opened the patent office, suspended and declared a moratorium on patent claims for the duration due to war emergency...

 

After that, everyone has access to the science....

Edited December 3, 2022 by Egilman

[popeye the sailor]

what caused problems with the Fokker planes was deficiencies and deterioration of the wing joints.   wings back then were not as thick as they are today and possessed a curvature in the wing surfaces that you don't see in today's planes.

[Old Collingwood]

Your doing some  great work Denis   -  there  is  somthing  so organic  about  planes  built  in wood/balsa,     what  I remember  about the one  my dad  brought for  me  and  started  building  -  I think it was designed  to  be a  R/C   model  as  it had the  moveable control  surfaces  and  all the  push rods  routed  inside the wings  through the  formers,   can't rmember  more than that  though   except  think it  had about a  120cm   wing span.

 

OC.

[popeye the sailor]

it use to be that some could only be done with rubber...........the larger kits were the R/C only.  but now with electric motors as small as they are,  even the smaller kits can be modified.  the gas engines can still be found.  I never got into it though  

[popeye the sailor]

the Christmas rush.........who came up with that?  they must not have heard about the check out line     it's been crazy 'round here..........barely time to breathe.  we've gotten our first snow as well.........1.2 inches 'round here and maybe a foot for the north.  we got a bit more for today,  but it got knocked down by the rain that was sandwiched in between.  I managed to get some done last week,  but pictures are scant due to how broken up the session was.  yesterday was the big one.......I got more done.  to recap the steps taken last week........the cockpit was cemented into place..........which led to the nose to get closed up.  that was a bit of a compound step because I had to finish shaping the cowl.  on the exposed cylinders of the engine,  I added exhaust tubes,  and the nose for the prop was added.  I also got to do some painting.......hard to say what the base color is.......wait.......{get out the Humbrol color chart}........OK...#87 is a steel gray.  I just did some simple camo wavy pattern........closest I can come to the color is a red/brown {it is a bottle of 'oops' paint I made up some time ago}.  when I got to the point of finishing the fuselage paint,  I found that the can had jelled.  I only had the single can.  so I painted the nose section with a blue/gray from the White Ensign collection I have.  I was curious how it would cover wood,  as opposed to plastic,  and I found that it is better suited for wood.   makes me very happy  

the  engine is in place,  as well as the stabilizer and rudder.

the only decals so far.......I really wanted to do the Iron Cross.  I'm not sure if it is correct to mix them,  but then again,  I'm not modeling this to any specific plane.  most of the pictures I found were in black n white.  the insignias are timeline specific,  and since I added a bottom surface to the wing,  I want to be able to add insignias there too.  I have a full set of the Iron Crosses,  but odd sets {collection} of the simplified crosses.

I might have mentioned that I painted the tire rims.  I also added the two holes in the cowl

...a little more work on the machine guns

the tail skid,  the steps {one for each side },  and the grab handles were shaped out.

with the additional part made up,  I thought to add some at this point.  the tail skid was cut to shape and added

in the beginning,  the D VIII didn't have the stabilizer braces.  these were added a bit later in their production

as I was working on the machine guns,  I thought about the cut out that they were nestled in.  the ammo boxes were located under them.  to help in their placement,  I cut out the recess to fit them

 

there will be some sort of batten around the cockpit opening....not sure whether to use leather or thick thread.  the gun butts were shortened a little and handles were added on the ends.

a bit of plastic gives it a little more detail.   I did the same for the Fokker Dr 1 that I have in the closet......they are bigger though   

[popeye the sailor]

this afternoon,  I got to sit down again with the model.........not much,  but enough      the tail skid is painted.........the machine guns are painted their base color.......and I got to work on the wing some more.  the top had been painted earlier with the steel gray.......still needs the darker gray on the underside.   I was standing over the fuselage...I took this picture..........

the plans show the struts for the wing..........I'm about to make the pairs.  for the wing I did the same camo design.  I was curious as to how it would look.  I think it will fit the bill alright   

I'm hoping to get more done before the holidays........ ☃️🎅

[Javlin]

Judging by Mr.Goodbar the tail is about 3.5" and the fuselage about 12/13" of good size Denis and looking very good with all those handmade parts. Doing well Sir!

[Old Collingwood]

Thats looking really nice Denis,    loving  the  colours.

 

OC.

[mtaylor]

That's going to end up being one sweet looking airplane.

[CDW]

Great looking model Denis. She's going to be a beauty when you're finished with her.

I wanted to introduce you guys to a vendor who laser cuts old balsa kits that have been long out of production. It's called Aero-Werks, a division of DPC Models, Ltd.

A decade ago, a good friend and R/C scale model flying buddy got me hooked on building and flying "micro-scale" R/C aircraft. For decades, I had built and flown large scale R/C models, but this modern age had produced R/C equipment in micro-scale and made possible the conversion of these old balsa kits into flying R/C scale models. For many, they will have no interest in flying R/C, but for the guy who likes to build static scale models, this is the place to go (Aero-werks) to get that old kit you remember from way back when, without spending stupid prices on Ebay to buy an original. The only downside, there are no vacuform parts included, no decals, and in some cases but not all, no plans. It only includes the shaped balsa parts, laser cut. You the builder provide your own balsa stringers, usually 1/16 inch ones.

Canute mentioned using basswood instead of balsa for a stronger model, and that is fine for a static build, but only choose the very lightest balsa you can find for building a flying scale model. Every gram of weight counts and wing loading is a huge deal when building a flying model. Anyway, here is the link for the website. If nothing else, you will drool at the selection of old WW1 flying models you can purchase at a small cost each. Some have not been seen in decades.

Aero-werkes (aerowerkes.com) 

[popeye the sailor]

I'll have to check out that site CW.........I've only done a few rubber powered planes.  in my experience with these types of models,  the use of basswood really doesn't add much weight at all.  I've subbed in basswood on this model,  and it still feels very lightweight.  this is not to say that it doesn't,  but powered with an electric or gas engine,  I really don't think it would be a huge issue.  when I built the Spitfire,  I subbed in basswood stringers.  it is set up to fly,  having installed the rubber band...........I did other aspects differently as well.  throughout the assembly of these planes,  they use a paint called Dope......IE,  doping the plane.......tissue.......ect.  I used diluted white glue to coat the tissue.........it shrunk the tissue as it dried,  just as spraying it with water would.  I gave it a couple more coats,  and then airbrushed it with enamel paint.  this did loosen the tissue, which I was hoping wouldn't happen, but it tightened back up as it dried,  which made me breathe a sigh of relief.  it also got a coat or two of clear lacquer.

I've got it sitting in the hallway at the moment........a year or two after I built it.  it proved not to be the safest place though..........I noticed that one of the stabilizers was broken off and had to repair it.  I hadn't built another flying model since the 70's.  I'm not sure if temperature would play a huge part for flight,  but now I'm tempted to send this one up to see how I did.  my past experience with the more modern fixed wing aircraft didn't do so well.  the Piper cub I did back when I was in school flew fairly well.........but the real success story was the Fokker D VIII.

 

my reason for not using the Dope was with the smell and the toxic nature........this stuff can send you into another world if not used in a well ventilated area.  kinda reminded me of Lenny Bruce and the aero plane glue skit he did     at the time,  I really wasn't set up to handle this stuff safely.   back with all the others,  I used no paint at all,  but white glue in the assembly process.

 

thanks to you folks for the kind comments and the likes   as a static model,  I'm trying to add as much as possible....most from memory,  since I've built quite a few of these planes.  I may not get everything I want on it,  but I think it will turn out to be an interesting model.  it has a wingspan of 14 inches....the stabilizer is 4 1/2 inches wide........can't measure the goodbar............I ate it   

[CDW]

All I can tell ya is, I been there done that and got the Tee shirt. With flying models, we very bit of weight matters. A lot. Try hats why there is “contest balsa”. It’s the lightest weight stuff. Modelers bring sensitive gram weight postal scales to choose their sheet balsa for flying models. Like I said, if it’s a shelf sitter, it won’t matter a bit, but with flying models, weight is a huge deal. 

[popeye the sailor]

Christmas is tomorrow..........can't lie.........I'm on the edge on my seat!  I keep bugg'in the admiral..............and she keeps telling me to knock it off!   my younger son and his fiancé {thanks spell check!] are coming over,  and we spend the evening playing games....one year mixing it up and watched a Christmas movie.  however it works..........it should be a fun evening.  my oldest........though it would be nice to have them all over,  he has his own brood and they have a separate party with her in-laws { I can respect that  }  I think back to my younger days..........there was a time when the ENTIRE Wenzel family used to enjoy gatherings throughout the year.  I'm talking as far back as second..........and even third cousins!  through the following years.........everyone got older..........older relations died........and a disagreement {I'll call it that} between two families,  literally destroyed the tradition   I reminisce..............

"time it 'twas,

and what a time it 'twas"

it 'twas.........

a time of innocence,

a time of consequences." 

 

"Long ago,  it must be.......

I have a photograph."

"preserve your memories........

their all that's left you......." 

 

{Bookends by Simon & Garfunkel}

 

 

so............as we arrive at the big day,  I think it's a good time to update you all on where I am with this model.  the bottom of the wing has been painted and allowed to dry.  I didn't use the Iron Crosses like I wanted to,  opting to use the simplified crosses instead.  this way,  I can use up the thicker ones I have on the wing bottom........for some reason,  I only have three of them........thought there was four.  the decals are very brittle.........it's been hard to apply them without breakage.  then a major development occurred........they wouldn't stick!  there must be something with the White Ensign paint.........either that,  or the wood sucked in most of the paint 'quality',  leaving the pigments on the surface!   most disheartening!    a quick remedy for this is to spray a clear lacquer over the wing to seal the wood.  I removed the decals {what a job}........and sprayed the wing,  giving it a couple coats on both sides.  I couldn't find the flat lacquer,  so I used dull cote instead.  I had no problem with the rudder decals,  because I used Testor's flat white on the rudder and stabilizer top surface.  this is what makes me thing that it's the type of paint,  and not a wood issue.  not to say that it isn't though......the bottom is balsa and the top is basswood {could be the type of wood}.  the decals stuck to the revised wood surface,  but I do notice some lifting.......I'm running a test at the moment.  get this solved before the wing goes on.........  

there is a white chip missing on the port underside........found it on the floor,  but it was so brittle,  that it was impossible to pick up {I'll try and fix it with some paint}.   the cowl has bee added to the fuselage and painted.

the coaming has also been added around the cockpit opening....I'm surprised it worked,  since it is thick thread and wax coated.  I bought the spool thinking it might work well for rigging,  but it didn't.  the machine guns are added as well.

I will need to cut the slots for the cabane struts.........with the poor quality die cutting,  they kinda got lost in the process.  I let the bottom wing decals dry before applying the top decals.  I had to cut them so they would lap over the aileron gap.  being treated with the dull cote,  these stuck better than the underside decals.  I went over the aileron detail with a mechanical pencil

and that's it.........this is where I am at this point in time    .........from out in the kitchen,  there rose such a clatter..........guess I should go and see what's the matter!  

[popeye the sailor]

there is different densities with balsa wood..........I've got two in this kit alone.  I'm using the denser stuff for the struts.  if I was going to competitions,  I'd likely do the same.  how many flights can an average person get out of one of these planes?  rubber doesn't last too long.......the rest is all glide.  weight has always been an issue.......even in the real world.  it was thought that paint would add too much weight to the plane,  so they opted for printed canvas to cover them.

 

all I was saying is that with the electric motors they have out there now,  they can provide the constant push needed to get them off the ground and keep them in the air.      from what I've read,  basswood is a second choice for wood........they even have lightweight plywood out there for larger plane kits.

[Old Collingwood]

Some great progress  there  Denis,   have a great time  over the  Holiday  -  all   the  best to  you  and yours  mate.

 

OC.

[popeye the sailor]

thanks OC...and thanks for the likes.   made a little more progress   had a very nice Christmas with the family........hope you all had a great holiday as well!

[popeye the sailor]

the year has come and gone........here's hoping that 2023 is a fun filled year!   I intend to make it so    I finally got the Billing Slo mo shun....the model I wanted to get when I built the M&M Fun Ship.  originally,  I wanted to do an M&M racing boat,  but couldn't get it to fly with the budget director........so I had to work with what I had.  I still managed to pull it off   I also got my first Eduards model of a Focke Wulfe BF 109D-9.........looks to be quite a project when I get to it!

 

I had made a little more progress before the end of the year........silly I guess to hang on to them,  waiting for more to accumulate.  I had some time on Christmas Eve,  waiting for my son to arrive,  so I thought I'd open the holes for the cabane struts.  I still need to open the holes for the trailing strut {the rear one}.

how to set them up was confusing.........the holes under the wing looked too large,  dreading how much patchwork would need to take place.  how the struts locate and spacing was another question.  I used a slower setting Ca for this,  so I could position the wing properly........or as good as I could get........

it seemed a a bit off to the port side,  so I added weight to the starboard side to counter it.....the wing is actually balancing on the struts amazingly well,  making it a lot easier to adjust the struts and equalize their angles.

with the wing looking good where it is,  it will sit here to fully dry.  now to enjoy the festivities  

[popeye the sailor]

I got back to her on the 29th..........sanded the corners off the struts and added more CA to fill in the gaps.  a supprt strut for the main cabane struts needs to be added.  I cut them from the harder balsa and added them to the model.

the next step is to finish sanding the struts to blend the joints in better and get them painted.  from there I can cut the rear struts and put on the wing.  

more to come  

[Old Collingwood]

Thats  some delicate  adjustment  work  going on there  Denis,    Happy New  Year  mate.

 

OC.

[FriedClams]

Terrific work on this model Denis, and such an interesting log as well.  Takes me back to my childhood as I fondly remember building my first balsa model with my dad.  I did some of the building, and he did all of the fixing when I wasn't looking.

 

Gary

[popeye the sailor]

hello folks ....thanks for looking in     this is the oldest model of this type that I've built.......the early stick n tissue are as far back as I go.  kind of a let down in what I though I was getting,  but I think it's come together rather well......I don't feel so let down anymore.  not much has been done since the last update.........been rearranging the spare room to reduce the clutter that has been festering,  concerning the admiral's puzzles.  I just put together a cabinet for her to store them and that has been a great improvement.  hope to get more done soon.......big thanks and to you as well Gary........enjoyed your last shadowbox and so glad to see you've started a new one!  

[popeye the sailor]

hello all........been a busy couple of weeks.   I picked at the D VIII every chance I got........decided to for-go a few bits of detail to bring it to a close.  parts were made and painted........now the push to assemble them all together.  I had problems with the decals for the most part........being a wooden model,  unless the surface was sealed,  they wouldn't stick good.  there was also a huge problem with breakage.......not sure how old the decals were either,  but I managed to use them anyway.

   the added wing struts were sanded to round off the squared edges....and then they got some paint.  the trailing struts will be made after the wing is on the plane,  so I can get a better idea of the length.  the monent of truth finally came........

the underside tabs will need to be filled.   the measurement of the trailing struts originates just above the trailing landing gear strut,  to the aft tab slot in the wing.   I made them from cast off balsa,  finding that the die cut parts were too short.  shaped and painted,  they were added to the model.

 

[popeye the sailor]

I got back to the model a few days later and added a few other parts.  the pilot's step and the grab bars for the tail were added.

both sides are done.........I was holding off on the tires 'cuz I wanted to add the landing gear rigging.  this was one of the features I decided not to do,  since I didn't do the aileron and rudder rigging.

....getting near the end  

[popeye the sailor]

a few day later,  the last two bits were added.........the fuselage decals and the prop.  I had sprayed the sides of the fuselage with sealer {flat lacquer},  but it was still a problem for the decals....the issues were still there.  the decals broke and I had to piece them together.....I sprayed the fuselage again to lock them in place.

I had some that weree encased in a white square {boxed in}.......but since I didn't used the white banners for the wing,  I stayed with the plain look.  I used the kit supplied prop to finish it off.  the edges were sanded to tone down the fat look,  so it wouldn't have the appearance of a wind up airplane.  I didn't totally succede....but it looks better.  I was going to do a wood grain like look,  but at the last miniute,  I said the heck with it.  the hub in the center isn't as 'fat' as it should look,  but an odd part from another model kit gave it some sort hub appearance.

while the prop was still setting,  I did reposition it a little and took the second picture.......

the epilog is nigh!

[popeye the sailor]

so........this ends the log my friends.  while it would have been nice to find the rpoduction date of this model,  it is safe to say that it is an old kit.......likely from the 60's or 70's.  for only $2.50,  a boy could have just as much fun,  as I did    it was fun adding the extras,  and with any model kit,  there is no limit on what can be added.  each model is it's own rabbit hole  

a huge thanks to all who looked in  

[Dave_E]

Outstanding! I understand not wanting to turn it over to “flight test”. 👍😀

[Old Collingwood]

That has turned out so  nice  Denis -  a nice  colour  project.

 

OC.

[AJohnson]

A very good and unusual looking build, well done! 😁