Chris Watton and Vanguard Models news and updates Volume 2

[palmerit]

2 hours ago, Cathead said:

It's certainly possible younger generations will have different interests, but it's also reasonable to assume that people can develop new interests once they have more time on their hands.

Agreed. With my youngest in college, there was a lot more free time for me. And hitting 60, I was looking for a new hobby that I could carry into retirement. I had lurked on here a decade or more ago but didn’t have the time, the space, or the money to take on this hobby. (I also learned to scuba dive last year, which has young people and surprisingly a fair number of older folks too). 

[thibaultron]

In the model railroad hobby, they have been saying the same thing for over 60 years! This hobby will also survive.

[Chuck Seiler]

    When I first seriously got into wooden ship modeling about 30 years ago, our club was mostly 60, 70 and 80 year olds.  They were lamenting that there were very few young people in the hobby and it was dying out.  Now, at 71, I sit back and smile.  The young folks who were NOT into the hobby back then are the old folks that ARE in the hobby now.  In addition, our club has several 20/30-somethings, many 40-somethings and a few pre-teens.

 

    The hobby is thriving and with the plethora of resources/kit makers we will be around for a long time. ...Well, at least the hobby.

[ECK]

I also agree, starting in my 50's (now in my early 60's) when we became empty nesters with time and more disposable income available.  Also able to take over the kid's play room and convert it into my shipyard. The kids were the ones who encouraged me to take the leap ! As we get older I think the hobby is a good way to keep manual dexterity and avoid cognitive decline given all the different mind processes need in ship building.

[brunnels]

I'm in my 30's with my first child born this year, so I'm probably the outlier in both groups.  I occasionally visit reddit's ship modeling sub forum, and there are plenty of younger people into ship models.  Remember though that even a cheap $100- $200 kit can be a large investment for young people in an ever increasingly expensive world, then you have to account that the factors of space and time to build the model are also things that most younger people don't have until they get a little older.  Plastic scale modeling is bigger than ever, so don't think that younger people aren't into scale modelling anymore, wooden ship modelling just requires a lot more resources that younger people don't have yet. 

[hollowneck]

1 hour ago, brunnels said:

wooden ship modelling just requires a lot more resources that younger people don't have yet. 

On point. The most important resource needed for our ship modeling hobby - at any interest level, scratch or kit, tugboat or ship-of-the-line - is TIME.

[Ronald-V]

2 hours ago, hollowneck said:

On point. The most important resource needed for our ship modeling hobby - at any interest level, scratch or kit, tugboat or ship-of-the-line - is TIME.

And patience! With the shorter attention spans of the younger generation, such a slow hobby might not be so appealing. I think that changes as you get older and live more slowly. Plus, history often becomes more interesting again as you get older I think  

[ECK]

From my conversation with medical students, residents and fellows, when I mention Nelson, HMS Victory  or Trafalgar I get blank stares.

[chris watton]

Just heard that my Surprise flag sets and optional machined blocks are arriving tomorrow!

 

The flag set will be included as standard in the first and perhaps second batch of Surprise kits. In fact, the only optional extra will be the machined blocks, and that's only because I know some will want to just build the hull and leave off the masts and rig. The quality is very high for these flags, printed on a very fine material, Jim has my first samples..

[AlanDavison]

I note that the union flag includes the cross of St. Patrick which was added to the flag in 1801. Is this appropriate for Surprise which I believe was sold out of service in 1802?

[chris watton]

1 minute ago, AlanDavison said:

I note that the union flag includes the cross of St. Patrick which was added to the flag in 1801. Is this appropriate for Surprise which I believe was sold out of service in 1802?

 

I knew I would get this question.

 

Yes, for me, the flag from 1801 is appropriate. This is because I figured the vast majority of builders will want to depict the model as per the novels, the overwhelming majority being post 1801.

If I asked for the pre 1801 flag, I am sure I would also get comments about that. On balance, I thought the post 1801 would suit the majority.

[glbarlow]

Sigh. It’s a flag. How many would ever notice. Good call Chris, more will identify with the books and movie than the actual ship. 

[Kenchington]

7 minutes ago, glbarlow said:

Sigh. It’s a flag. How many would ever notice.

I do. Every time.

 

Sailing warships carried such large and prominent flags that they form a key aspect of the overall appearance. So getting the vexillology wrong is a quick way to ruin an otherwise-excellent model.

 

Trevor

[glbarlow]

2 hours ago, Kenchington said:

a quick way to ruin an otherwise-excellent model.

Ruin, with the design of a flag, seems a bit harsh. You can make your own, one consistent with your views on vexillology. 
 

In fact I never put any flag on a model, distracts from the build. 

Edited yesterday at 02:45 AM by glbarlow

[chris watton]

To be clear, my version of Surprise is depicted post 1801, as per the novels. The quarter davits would not be shown if it were much earlier.

 

This does not stop anyone from changing the model to 1796 spec if they so wished - buy another flag set (or leave them off) and leave off the slightly later innovations like the davits.

 

I did think adding a quality flag set for the first time ever as standard for my kits would be a nice little addition - should have known it would cause a ruckus! 😅

[uss frolick]

But that's what we pirates do best, laddie, cause a ruckus ...

[Nipper]

2 hours ago, chris watton said:

I did think adding a quality flag set for the first time ever as standard for my kits would be a nice little addition - should have known it would cause a ruckus! 😅

Chris, you know that there will always be differences of opinion!!  As you explain, modellers can adapt the ship to be what they want - that's part of the joy.  What matters, I believe, is that you share your thoughts on this forum, and that too is part of the joy for me and I am sure, all of us.

 

Nipper

[Cathead]

Vexillology clearly has the right root word. Personally I commend manufacturers like Vanguard for caring about getting little details right. It shows attention and care for their work, and helps justify the appropriate price they charge. Would much rather have that approach than the slapdash cutrate version we see from various other sources that shall go unnamed. 

 

An incorrect flag may not "ruin" a model for casual viewers any more than upside down deadeyes, but it makes the model less than it could be. If an individual modeler makes something their way, fine. I see that as different from a manufacturer providing incorrect materials when they could get it right. So again, well done to Vanguard for making a sensible choice and explaining it.

[RolandR]

I hope, you did not lose potential customers because you will include a flag set. Would be a shame.

[Kusawa2000]

I'm personally glad to hear you are including a flag package and give some thought to the accuracy of the flags.  I always include a set of flags on all of my models. I find its that added detail that adds a lot to the final look.

 

I also make sure that if my boat has sails that the flags are flapping in the direction that the sails are set. A personal pet peeve of mine.

 

Thanks for including flags! I would have had to make a set when I get the chance to build your Vanguard model of the Surprise. 

 

MIKE

[glbarlow]

I’m glad of the flag set too and have been a customer of Vanguard since its first model. Chris works so hard to get things right and to communicate so effectively on this forum I just tire a bit when someone nitpicks at his choices. I did learn a new word though, had no idea their was one for the study of flags.

[chris watton]

11 minutes ago, glbarlow said:

I’m glad of the flag set too and have been a customer of Vanguard since its first model. Chris works so hard to get things right and to communicate so effectively on this forum I just tire a bit when someone nitpicks at his choices. I did learn a new word though, had no idea their was one for the study of flags.

I learned that word from The Big Bang Theory!

[Kenchington]

As I seem to have touched a raw nerve and so accidentally hijacked Chris' topic, I ought to make amends -- starting with thanks to Chris, not only for providing flags in his kit but for taking the time to get them right! (Why the flags for an Admiral of the White in the kit of a frigate model, though?) 

 

Beyond that: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, of course, so when I wrote "getting the vexillology wrong is a quick way to ruin an otherwise-excellent model", I should have added "in my eyes". (And I could also have added, along with @Kusawa2000, that the flags need to conform to the wind in the sails, however those are set, if the model shows the effects of the wind at all.)

 

But, without detracting from the right of every model builder to show his (or her) model as they choose, I would add that flags play important roles in seagoing culture -- part tradition, part the opportunity they offer for a bit of pageantry, formerly often (and still to a degree) a means to communicate with other vessels or the shore, and maybe something deeper in the psychology of seafaring. It's an important enough topic that books are written about "flag etiquette" to help amateur sailors avoid embarrassing gaffs. There's the ensign, of course: Simple signal of the nationality of the vessel but, beyond that, a statement of pride and patriotism (and a symbol that is dipped to honour passing warships, though not by US vessels encountering USN ships for some reason). And because watercraft are inherently mobile, they get to carry their national symbol into the harbours of other nations, which brings a need for courtesy ensigns in the starboard rigging (and woe betide the yacht skipper who acknowledges the wrong host authority!). Then there's the jack and pennant that proclaim the status of a commissioned warship, company houseflags for merchant vessels, yacht-club burgees, owner's private flags, all expressing the pride of owner or ship's company. When there is cause for celebration, it is proclaimed by "dressing overall", with signal flags from bowsprit cap to masthead and all the way aft to the taffrail. And those signal flags are still used for signalling, even in the era of ubiquitous VHF radio, though primarily for signals that have to be maintained for a while: The red swallowtail of the International Code "B" for "I am loading, carrying or discharging dangerous substances" (or some such wording), seen fluttering from the radar masts of tankers as much as ammunition ships.

 

I could go on and on. Suffice to say that, if the miniature people who might live and work aboard a model ship could speak, they would care very much about the presentation of flags. There's every reason to model just one part of a ship, such as the hull with no spars or rigging. There's every reason to include bare spars, all neatly squared but without sails, the running rigging simplified and no flags at all. But if you aim to show a vessel as she would be in use, the flags need to be there and need to be the right ones in the right places. Or else your model is going to look wrong, in the eyes of those who know!

 

Trevor

[hollowneck]

5 hours ago, Kusawa2000 said:

I also make sure that if my boat has sails that the flags are flapping in the direction that the sails are set.

To flap or not to flap, that is the question. The true Vexillologist can also choose to drape.