Licorne 1755 by mtaylor - 3/16" scale - French Frigate - from Hahn plans - Version 2.0 - TERMINATED

[augie]

I'm glad John made the two comments that he did.  To my eye there was something going on between the red and blue pins.  I also second his motion to give it one good last look from the front.  It's a matter of look and feel.  Can't really describe it.  

 

Dan makes a good point on the garboard......not only the width, but the length up near the bow.

 

Fair winds, my friend.

[mtaylor]

Thanks for the likes and comments.

 

Dan,

I'm absorbing all I can.... Your post is big help.  I rechecked the Belle Poule and La Venus monographs as they have the same planking style as Licorne.   The pics show the re-positioned (this morning) batten.  Not much from the red pin back but definitely moreso at the bow. 

 

My dead flat and the widest frame is frame 20 (black arrow in full length picture below). The batten at that point is 41 mm which is 8 planks wide.  I examined the planking schemes and did some rough measurements from the plans and moved the bow piece towards the wale.  This flattened the plank out so there's not a nasty twist/bend in it. It's 17.5 mm.   I measured the last strern frame and I get 37 mm.  The area between the batten and wales is for the wider planks of 5/32" (5mm).

 

For reference, the dead flat frame dimension from keel to wale is 129mm, first frame forward is 80 mm and last frame is 123 mm

 

These plans also show that the fore part of the garboard doesn't taper down like an English ship but goes up.  I need to double check this as could just be a drawing distortion. (see the red line).  Nor does it appear that they used a broad strake next to the garboard (which was wide) but a wide stealer near the stern. <scratches head> The other oddball (to me) thing is that the planks are not uniform in width at the midsection for those but the NMM cross-section plan for Licorne is.  

 

I'll give the tape method a shot and see what it does... sounds like a good idea.

 

 

 

[shipmodel]

Mark - 

 

Looks much better to my eye.  Should fit well once you set the rest of your battens.

 

As for exact plank widths and numbers, don't tie yourself to exact dimensions, they really can't be calculated.  There is what I call the 3-dimensional problem.  The widths you have measured are for the faces of the ribs.  The planks have a definite thickness, so where they cover a convex surface the inside corners hit each other before the outer ones do, creating an unsightly gap.  This is even more of a problem with French designs that have those large bulges at the waterline.  

 

 

To get a tight fit at the outer surface the solution is to bevel the edges of the planks, but then the inside width of the plank is less than the outer width, and no longer matches the measured dimensions.  You can start with wider planks, but the variation changes depending on the curvature that is being covered.  This changes from wale to keel and even along the length of one plank strake.

 

My solution, which is just one of several that works, is to plank up from the keel and down from the wale at the same time. As you near the center all of the dimensions are recalculated after each plank strake is added.  Eventually you reach a space that can be closed in by one or two final "shutter planks" that should look almost identical to those on either side.

 

Practice on the tape and take your time.  It will come together in a planking job that you will be proud of.  You are making a very good start.

 

Dan

[Jim Lad]

That bow view confirms that the new placement is good, Mark!

 

John

[mtaylor]

Thanks for the "likes" and the comments.

 

Dan,

That is a good point I didn't think of.  With the thicker timbers it will probably be more apparent.  I'm going to line out the area between the wales and the batten and work on that area... then drop a batten between the wide planks and garboard since those (except for the garboard) are all the same width.  So by doing the thicker planks first, I should be able to get a better idea on the narrow planks, I'm thinking.

 

Plus I've got some fiddly things to clean up caused by naïveté on my part.  The rabbet needs attention where it goes to almost vertical (the dreaded bevel) at the bow and stern along with some frames that aren't faired quite right.

[GLakie]

I'm just a little confused about the planking over the curve of the frames. If you mark off where each plank goes on the frames, and between the marks is the width of the plank, then bevel the inside edges of the planks to accommodate the curve of the frames, leaving the outside edge un-touched, there wouldn't be any gap between them if you follow the marks, right? 

[shipmodel]

Hi George - 

 

The problem is one of measurement.  The thickness of the planking means that the distance around the curve on the outer surface of the planks is longer than the curve on the inner surface of the planks.  If you measure your distances on the surface of the rib and divide by the number of planks, you will get a dimension that is smaller than you need to fill up the distance around the curve on the surface of the planks. When you bevel the edges to bring the planks together at the surface, they will no longer cover the full distance that you measured on the rib. 

 

To put in some numbers, let's say that the distance on the rib from wale to batten is 40mm.  I decide to fill it with 8 plank of 5mm each.  I cut the planks to that dimension and lay them in the space.  I bevel the edges, which means the inside width of the plank is less than 5mm.  Let's say that it is now 4.8mm. The 8 planks now cover only 38.4mm.  There is a gap of 1.6mm.  This would not be much of a problem if I was planking a cylinder, I could just add an extra plank as needed.  But the uneven shape of the hull means that the gap will vary and therefore the line of the caulking seam will wander up and down, and the shape of the space still to be planked will no longer match the battens that were so carefully lined up. 

 

Does that make sense?

 

Dan

[cog]

Dan,

 

Thanks, however ..., your explanation brings up the following in my thoughts: If you know the required width at the rib, you should use a slightly oversized plank - width wise - taking into account the thickness to get the needed overlap to bevel it so the inner side matches the width at the rib. At least that would be logical to me ... but hey, I'm no ship builder or carpenter - luckily ;-)

[GLakie]

I understand that concept of it, where the farther out away from the frame you get, the wider the plank might need to be on the outside, to close the gap. But it seems like beveling the edge, would also close that gap. I don't know, but all that just seems more complicated than it needs to be. Maybe making the marks just a hair smaller to begin with?

Edited May 13, 2015 by GLakie

[shipmodel]

Carl, George - 

 

You are both right.  Spiling/planking is a complicated process.  Even after doing it for 30 years I still have to take my time and agonize over the process. Sometimes planks that I thought were correct have to be stripped out and replaced.

 

The problem is the shape of the hull with its compound curves, some of which change from convex to concave on the same rib and along the same planking strake.  Yes, you can start with planks that are slightly wider than your measured marks, which works on the convex curves, but is wrong for the concave curves.  

 

My only point here is that you can't rely on measurements, no matter how precise.  To get a smooth, straight, fair run for each strake the measurements are just the starting point.  Each plank has to be shaped by eye and the battens used as adjustable guides, not inflexible borders. 

 

Fortunately, I had some good teachers, and now there is this entire wonderful community of modelers in the NRG and on MSW who are so generous with their time and knowledge.

 

Be well

 

Dan

[cog]

Mark,

 

Saw this great build in the gallery ... http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/gallery/image/11221-dsc01815/ maybe this can shed some light on your planking questions ...

[Modeler12]

Perhaps I am missing something in what Dan suggested about the planking width and starting at both top and bottom and see how it turns out when they meet.

It would seem to me (and that worked for me) that after dividing the sections with the battens, you measure the distance between the battens along the outside (not along the frames). Then you can calculate how wide the planks should be before they are beveled, etc. If any adjustments need to be made it is easier to do that with the last three or four planks as you work down towards the batten. You could even make minor adjustments to the location of the battens (up or down).

Edited May 17, 2015 by Modeler12

[mtaylor]

Jay,

I'm no expert here on this.  I think your both on the same or similar pages....  On this first area, I'm working towards the batten. If I end up short, that's fine as these planks are wider than the rest of the planking.  Luckily, I have extra wood, isopropyl, and patience.  I just hope I don't have to rip it all off...

[cog]

Version 3.0, Mark ... ??? Nah, you can, and you will do it to your full satisfaction! .. besides I'm enjoying this here build to much!!!

[shipmodel]

Hi Jay - 

 

I don't think that you are missing anything, and it is probably my failure to explain properly in any case.  We are both doing similar things to get a good result.  You are planking in one direction towards a batten, while I plank in both directions towards a center.  Like many tasks in ship model building, there are several ways to solve any particular problem.  All of them are right, so long as the result is good.  I looked at the log of your Connie build and you are clearly getting good results.  Stick to what works for you.

 

Be well

 

Dan

[mobbsie]

Hi Mark,

 

I afraid I am going to be no help to at all regarding the planking mate but I'm sure you will come up with a solution that suits.

 

Just don't overthink it.

 

Be Good

 

mobbsie

[Jparsley]

Very nice mark she looks complicated but nice

[SkerryAmp]

Yeah, I am just going to sit here in silence and look on with stunned glee.

 

 

Just so tight and "cool" looking - almost a shame to plank up that art, but am sure it will be even more artful! =) (is that a word, I dunno.. heck, it is now!!!)

[mtaylor]

Thanks for the likes, the conversation, and the comments.

 

I'm slowly progressing on the planking even though several things have got in the way... It may get worse now that the new "toy" is here.     But I will do my testing using Licorne related items so some good will come out of it.

[riverboat]

You do nice work Mark, so don't sweat  it..... it's just a model! 

 

Frank

[Jparsley]

Mark we need progress man can't wait to see some build there

[cog]

Don't burn those fingers Mark. looking forward to the results of your laser jigsaw

[mtaylor]

This latest project has, for me at least, a learning curve that is straight, vertical line.   Much like scratch building.    :D   Thanks for bearing with me. 

[Omega1234]

I'm happy to wait, Mark, because the results of your learning curve will be worth it!

 

All the best

 

Patrick

[cog]

Well then ... do not dally any longer!!! Get the show on the road ... Let's burn some rubb wood

[src]

We are a patient bunch Mark - fortunately Sjors is work OT right now - take your time.

Sam

[wyz]

Mark    I know first hand how much you can agonize when doing the spiling.  It's important to do it right if the run of the planking is to have that proper look.  Believe me when I say I feel your pain.  As I read the posts on your build log I'm struck with how sage like Dan (shipmodel) is when he says that the measurement between strakes and battens, while important, are just a starting point.  Battens are continually adjustable guides and not rigid inflexable borders.  Furthermore he said trust your eyes in conjunction with the battens.  He gives GOOD advise.  Doing this work, to some extent, is feel.  I always found I had to play around with the tape a good deal to get through this process and have it look right.  Stay with it friend, you'll find the answer.

 

Tom

[mtaylor]

Thanks all.   At this point, one more row of planks, some sanding the "wide" strakes will be done.  I'll do some sanding since it's pretty rough and then some pictures.   Soon I hope.

 

I'm having a headache with where the planks roll and twist to land on the counter.  If I can get the area to look right to my eyes, I'll be thrilled.   I think I have it figured out....   I just need to do it.   Now if life would stop getting in the way, I could make some real progress.

[Mirabell61]

Mark,

 

your framework looks so good a base for planking up, must be real fun to see the run of plank to plank. Presume you will be single layer planking, that is fine, will be looking out for your next pics.

I love the lines of "Licorne", looking very harmonic

 

Nils

[druxey]

Mark: sorry that I'm late in on this conversation. Read the three tutorials on lining out and spiling on this site before you go too far. Under 'Building, framing, planking and plating...."