mtaylor Posted June 21, 2016 Author Share #1981 Posted June 21, 2016 (edited) I have a question... this one goes back to "roof", "open" or "tub"... Take a look at the drawing and where the red line points to. I see the same line on the NMM drawing but it's very faint. So now I'm wondering... is that a roof line? Hahn's model has a roof/cover but..... I'm not sure what I'm seeing. I just realized today that if I don't lock my reference work (a pdf scan of the plan), I can accidently change the size of it. grrrr.... I've started over redrawing my gallery top. Edited June 21, 2016 by mtaylor Omega1234, Elijah, slow2cool and 13 others 16 Quote Mark "The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me Current Build: Past Builds: La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD Triton Cross-Section NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64 Non-Ship Model: On hold, maybe forever: CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
druxey Posted June 22, 2016 Share #1982 Posted June 22, 2016 It might be a roof line - or the top of the lead lining against the side. Elijah, mtaylor, Canute and 2 others 5 Quote Be sure to sign up for an epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series http://trafalgar.tv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtaylor Posted June 22, 2016 Author Share #1983 Posted June 22, 2016 It might be a roof line - or the top of the lead lining against the side. And therein is what is giving me pause. I re-checked the drawings of the French ships I have and haven't seen a line in that location.... Based on previous discussion, I'm leaning towards the lining top. This will probably end up just being a best guess on my part based on the "typical" for French ships and the fact that Hahn wasn't always right, either. Jack12477, slow2cool, EJ_L and 7 others 10 Quote Mark "The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me Current Build: Past Builds: La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD Triton Cross-Section NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64 Non-Ship Model: On hold, maybe forever: CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BANYAN Posted June 22, 2016 Share #1984 Posted June 22, 2016 Hi Mark and Druxey, why would the lead lining go so high, especially if the railings are open - no way to use it as a cistern unless the lining went up the same height against the rails also? If a storage area, it might have been a wood lining to prevent minor damage but I would have thought the ship's side would have been sufficient for that? Just my two cent's for what it is worth cheers Pat Canute, CaptainSteve, Omega1234 and 5 others 8 Quote If at first you do not suceed, try, and then try again!Current build: HMCSS Victoria (Scratch) Next build: HMAS Vampire (3D printed resin, scratch 1:350) Built: Battle Station (Scratch) and HM Bark Endeavour 1768 (kit 1:64) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaetan Bordeleau Posted June 22, 2016 Share #1985 Posted June 22, 2016 ''I re-checked the drawings of the French ships I have seen a line in that location"". Could you show us an example? Piet, Elijah, Canute and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtaylor Posted June 22, 2016 Author Share #1986 Posted June 22, 2016 Pat, I've thought about that and the more I work on this, the smaller that "tub" area is. This is an oddball as the other ships I've seen (French) don't have this shape of gallery nor is rail/roof like this. I'm scratching my head a lot. ''I re-checked the drawings of the French ships I have seen a line in that location"". Could you show us an example? Gaetan, I think you mis-quoted me, the quote is "I re-checked the drawings of the French ships I have and haven't seen a line in that location". There's no line there on Le Venus, Belle Poule or Hermione. Omega1234, Jack12477, Piet and 5 others 8 Quote Mark "The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me Current Build: Past Builds: La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD Triton Cross-Section NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64 Non-Ship Model: On hold, maybe forever: CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaetan Bordeleau Posted June 22, 2016 Share #1987 Posted June 22, 2016 You are right Mark, I mis-quoted you. I have another question: Is that drawing an interpretation from Hahn, where did he took references, is there a plan in NMM? WackoWolf, Elijah, Canute and 3 others 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtaylor Posted June 22, 2016 Author Share #1988 Posted June 22, 2016 Gaetan, He took it from the NMM plan. His deck plans, lines, etc. all seem to match the NMM. Even his "squiggles" for the carvings are if not the same, similar to the NMM plan. The line is there on the NMM plan but it's faint (or I have a bad copy). Piet, cog, Elijah and 5 others 8 Quote Mark "The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me Current Build: Past Builds: La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD Triton Cross-Section NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64 Non-Ship Model: On hold, maybe forever: CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaetan Bordeleau Posted June 22, 2016 Share #1989 Posted June 22, 2016 Mark, do you know the book: La frégate, Marine de France, 1650-1850 La Bellone 1756 Canute, EJ_L, ggrieco and 6 others 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtaylor Posted June 23, 2016 Author Share #1990 Posted June 23, 2016 Yes, Gaetan. I have the English version... Beudroit? I've been pouring over that one a lot the last few days. Either there is something undocumented that only occured during certain rebuilds or.. the NMM drawing is just flat wrong even though it was made as "as captured". Hmm... yes.. similar but different. The Licorne drawing shows that it doesn't go all the way back to the transom. Also, here's the drawing I found of La Bellone.... different gallery entirely. Jack12477, tadheus, albert and 18 others 21 Quote Mark "The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me Current Build: Past Builds: La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD Triton Cross-Section NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64 Non-Ship Model: On hold, maybe forever: CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
druxey Posted June 23, 2016 Share #1991 Posted June 23, 2016 And look at that wonderful extreme French midships section! cog, Canute, Omega1234 and 8 others 11 Quote Be sure to sign up for an epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series http://trafalgar.tv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtaylor Posted June 23, 2016 Author Share #1992 Posted June 23, 2016 And look at that wonderful extreme French midships section! Sweet, isn't it? I'm liking the French ships. There's just something about the lines and the details. Elijah, EJ_L, Mirabell61 and 6 others 9 Quote Mark "The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me Current Build: Past Builds: La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD Triton Cross-Section NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64 Non-Ship Model: On hold, maybe forever: CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cog Posted June 23, 2016 Share #1993 Posted June 23, 2016 Probably there is something about the altered lines and details. I can't say the switch between nationalities has gone quite fluently (either way). So far I can't say it looks like a balcony or a tub like form. The carving does give the impression, but looking at the lines, I have to stay with the roofed version. Not as much a bathtub as well as a bath house. Having had a second look at Geatan's drawings you can see clearly it is "tub-ish" and the railing is open. The lines of the hull are clearly visible. When looking at the Licorne's drawing it is not the case. Mark, I wonder if you will find a definite answer to this question. You might as well go with your gut feeling. It's your build ... Cheers WackoWolf, src, EJ_L and 6 others 9 Quote Carl "Desperate affairs require desperate measures." Lord Nelson Search and you might find a log ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviaamator Posted June 23, 2016 Share #1994 Posted June 23, 2016 I'm sure the French know a lot about beauty! Canute, Elijah, Mirabell61 and 5 others 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
md1400cs Posted June 23, 2016 Share #1995 Posted June 23, 2016 Mark, As I've mentioned before (I think) - your level of research for this build is superlative. Learning a lot just following along as a sophomore - well almost a junior I hope (:-))) Piet, Canute, canoe21 and 3 others 6 Quote Michael Current build : Sovereign of the Seas 1/78 Sergal Under the table: Golden Hind - C Mamoli Oseberg - Billings 720 - Drakkar - Amati Completed: Santa Maria-Mantua -- Vasa-Corel - Santisima Trinidad cross section OcCre 1/90th Gallery : Santa Maria - Vasa - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtaylor Posted June 23, 2016 Author Share #1996 Posted June 23, 2016 (edited) Thanks for the help and support. Part of the fun of this build is the research. I've learned that the French had a very different life aboard a frigate than their British or American counterparts. Examples being the sleeping arrangements, the use of the Great Cabin as we know it was different. I'm very much suspecting that at the time of her capture, Licorne had been or was still being used as a testbed. The French were pretty good about this. Take a good design and then pick a ship of that design and tweak it. Her masting shows that as her masting is the same dimensions of an 18 pdr built after she was captured . The fact that she has more in common with Belle Poule than Renommee. Looking at the "as built" versus the "as captured" I see a trending in what was done... no port lids, the change in planking and wales. the change to the transom appears to be an intermediate step. As for the galleries... my sense is that these also were in transition also from the galleries on ships like Renommee to the time of Belle Poule. But that's what I have, a sense... and not hard facts. Everything I've mentioned is circumstantial except for the two sets of plans. I think the roof on the galleries is correct way to go. I won't be fully committed to that until the moment I glue it on. And I'll continue researching up until that moment. I know there's an answer... somewhere. In the meantime, I hope that someday, my building skills get to be at least equal to my research. Edited June 23, 2016 by mtaylor Piet, WackoWolf, druxey and 15 others 18 Quote Mark "The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me Current Build: Past Builds: La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD Triton Cross-Section NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64 Non-Ship Model: On hold, maybe forever: CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jparsley Posted June 26, 2016 Share #1997 Posted June 26, 2016 Mark I do believe your skill has matched your research ability You've done a masterful job so far Canute, Omega1234, mtaylor and 3 others 6 Quote USF Constellation 1/85 AL Jparsley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtaylor Posted July 3, 2016 Author Share #1998 Posted July 3, 2016 (edited) I've been diligently working while continuing to dig for information. I've looked at what seems to be a zillion plans, paintings, sketches, etc. online of French frigates... this darned ship's galleries don't match any of them. There's a couple of other odd things I noticed but since the NMM plans have them, I have to assume that the guys in the yard taking the lines, etc. knew what they were doing and drew what they saw in front of them.. My eyes are killing me from staring at the computer and the NMM plans... Aspirin helps. I've reworked the roof to match the lines (and this time allowed for tolerances and my own stupidty) and then stained it black. I momentarily thought about using ebony but 1) didn't have the proper size stock and 2) didn't want to deal with the mess. I've reworked the rail/decorations. These appear to be more decorative than an actual railing so I'm cutting the pieces as individuals and will fit them as I go. In the pics, one set of decorations has been cut and etched on 1/32" (<1mm) Euro Boxwood. The other still needs cutting but I need to thickness another chunk of wood for that as i wasted a bit getting the settings right on the cutter. There will be a black covering board for the roof top with a piece of boxwood trim around it. Well.... here goes.... wish me luck as I dive off the deep end. I hope there's water in the pool... metaphorically speaking. Edited July 3, 2016 by mtaylor Elijah, ggrieco, BANYAN and 36 others 39 Quote Mark "The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me Current Build: Past Builds: La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD Triton Cross-Section NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64 Non-Ship Model: On hold, maybe forever: CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albert Posted July 3, 2016 Share #1999 Posted July 3, 2016 Beautiful work Mark. ggrieco, Elijah, Piet and 7 others 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobbsie Posted July 3, 2016 Share #2000 Posted July 3, 2016 Mark, I have a spare set eye balls if you want to borrow them, that is some seriousely tiny work there mate. Good research but now's the time to start making sawdust, good luck mate. Be Good mobbsie mtaylor, canoe21, Jack12477 and 9 others 12 Quote mobbsie All mistakes are deliberate ( me ) Current Build:- HMS Schooner Pickle Completed Builds :- Panart 1/16 Armed Launch / Pinnace ( Completed ), Granado Cross Section 1/48 Harwich Bawley, Restoration, Thames Barge Edme, Repair / Restoration, Will Everard 1/67 Billings HMS Agamemnon 1781 - 1/64 Caldercraft Kit, HM Brig Badger, HM Bomb Vessel Granado, Thames Steam Launch Louise, Thames Barge Edme, Viking Dragon Boat Next Build :- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cog Posted July 3, 2016 Share #2001 Posted July 3, 2016 It looks very promising indeed, Mark. 7.9 mm boxwood, you didn't even burn it to cinders with your aparatus. I can relate to the pain in your eyes, and the aspirin. We should be building at 1:1 after a certain age ... these smaller scales are an additional challenge in model building. I'm real curious as how it will look in the end. You build your Licorne as Remco states in his signature. Great work ... Canute, mtaylor, Omega1234 and 4 others 7 Quote Carl "Desperate affairs require desperate measures." Lord Nelson Search and you might find a log ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjdale Posted July 3, 2016 Share #2002 Posted July 3, 2016 Great work Mark - that is truly Liliputian detail. CaptainSteve, EJ_L, Canute and 5 others 8 Quote Grant ____________________________________________________ Current builds: African Queen - Radio Control / Live Steam Previous builds: The Shipyard at Foss' Landing (Diorama), Hannah - Ship in a Bottle, NRG Capstan Project, 1869 Allerton Steam Pumper, Medway Longboat , Alfa Romeo Spider Gran Touring (Pocher) , Da Vinci Flying Machine, 1949 Chris Craft 19' Racing Runabout - Dumas - Radio, Bomb Vessel Granado, 1742 - Cross Section - Scratchbuild, HMS Victory (Mamoli 1:90), Cutty Sark, Armed Pinnace, Bounty, Santa Maria At another place: Stephenson's Rocket (OcCre 1:24) (click the title to follow the link) In the Gallery: Lancia Armata 1803, Bomb Vessel Granada, 1742 Cross Section, 1949 Chris Craft 19' Racing Runabout Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
druxey Posted July 3, 2016 Share #2003 Posted July 3, 2016 Smart move not to use ebony, Mark! slow2cool, src, WackoWolf and 6 others 9 Quote Be sure to sign up for an epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series http://trafalgar.tv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtaylor Posted July 3, 2016 Author Share #2004 Posted July 3, 2016 Thanks for the likes and comments. Grant, I know there's more coming at this size.... It should be interesting. Mark, I have a spare set eye balls if you want to borrow them, that is some seriousely tiny work there mate. Good research but now's the time to start making sawdust, good luck mate. Be Good mobbsie Luckily, Mobbsie, I think my marathon at the computer is over for now. Then again, next week may bring something else.... Hang onto your spare set, they may come in handy. It looks very promising indeed, Mark. 7.9 mm boxwood, you didn't even burn it to cinders with your aparatus. I can relate to the pain in your eyes, and the aspirin. We should be building at 1:1 after a certain age ... these smaller scales are an additional challenge in model building. I'm real curious as how it will look in the end. You build your Licorne as Remco states in his signature. Great work ... Thanks Carl. Minor math error... it's 0.79 mm... and yes those bits are getting tiny. But I think I can deal with it. 1:1 would be fun but I have to knock down a few neighbors houses to do it. That and I'm about 150 miles from the ocean.... Smart move not to use ebony, Mark! I love the look.. the mess.. not so much. I think the last of the ebony for this ship is in place. CaptainSteve, Canute, gjdale and 9 others 12 Quote Mark "The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me Current Build: Past Builds: La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD Triton Cross-Section NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64 Non-Ship Model: On hold, maybe forever: CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cog Posted July 4, 2016 Share #2005 Posted July 4, 2016 Minor math error... it's 0.79 mm That's painfull ... I suddenly increased the size of your build .... maybe that's why I couldn't get some details to fit on my own models That and I'm about 150 miles from the ocean.... You would sail Licorne if you were closer to the sea !?!?!? Happy birthday Mark Jack12477, Canute, mtaylor and 7 others 10 Quote Carl "Desperate affairs require desperate measures." Lord Nelson Search and you might find a log ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack12477 Posted July 4, 2016 Share #2006 Posted July 4, 2016 Happy birthday, Mark :pirate41: :pirate41: :pirate41: :pirate41: :pirate41: mtaylor, Omega1234, Piet and 4 others 7 Quote Jack "No one is as smart as all of us" - Is ón cheann a thagann an cheird The craft comes from the head --------------------------------------------- Current build: US Constellation Non-ship builds: USCG UH-65A Dolphin M16 Multi-gun motor carriage diorama M4A3 Sherman Tanks dioramas 1936-1939 Mercedes Benz 540K 1934 Rolls-Royce Phantom II JSDF Light Armor Vehicle Figures: The Last Bridge: Raider Reaper Edge of Universe: Ianis The Last Bridge: Vadim with cart Completed build log(s): 18th Century Longboat , Marie Jeanne, Willie L Bennett 1888 50 ft Gaff-rigged Ice Yacht Scratch Build The Sullivans (DD 537) Liberty Ship SS John W Brown USS England (DE 635), Artesania Latina Titanic Lifeboat Gallery: Swift , Armed Virginia Sloop, Santisima Trinidad Captain's Launch , 18th Century Longboat , Marie Jeanne Other: Rhinebeck Aerodrome Tour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Biles Posted July 4, 2016 Share #2007 Posted July 4, 2016 Happy Birthday Mark. I hope you and Janet are having a nice holiday, and birthday. You are both in my prayers. We'll be sticking to the home front this holiday. There are a lot of people on the road this holiday, and I hate driving in heavy traffic. My best to you both. CaptainSteve, mtaylor, Jack12477 and 4 others 7 Quote Current: America Schooner https://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/10887-america-schooner-pof-by-walter-biles-radio-pof-scale-148-from-blue-jacket-plan/ Prior: MERIDEA https://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/140-meridea-by-walter-biles-radio-34-scratch-cad-of-boat-at-usn-severn-river-repair-station-ca-1969/ SAMSON First build: Scratch POF Spanish Galleon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjdale Posted July 4, 2016 Share #2008 Posted July 4, 2016 And Happy Birthday from me too Mark. I hope you get thoroughly spoiled for the day and receive many model building-related gifts! Canute, CaptainSteve, cog and 6 others 9 Quote Grant ____________________________________________________ Current builds: African Queen - Radio Control / Live Steam Previous builds: The Shipyard at Foss' Landing (Diorama), Hannah - Ship in a Bottle, NRG Capstan Project, 1869 Allerton Steam Pumper, Medway Longboat , Alfa Romeo Spider Gran Touring (Pocher) , Da Vinci Flying Machine, 1949 Chris Craft 19' Racing Runabout - Dumas - Radio, Bomb Vessel Granado, 1742 - Cross Section - Scratchbuild, HMS Victory (Mamoli 1:90), Cutty Sark, Armed Pinnace, Bounty, Santa Maria At another place: Stephenson's Rocket (OcCre 1:24) (click the title to follow the link) In the Gallery: Lancia Armata 1803, Bomb Vessel Granada, 1742 Cross Section, 1949 Chris Craft 19' Racing Runabout Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jparsley Posted July 4, 2016 Share #2009 Posted July 4, 2016 Happy birthday Mark Hope this day is a real treat Your girls looking good and glad so ever glad your past this hurdle Omega1234, Canute, slow2cool and 6 others 9 Quote USF Constellation 1/85 AL Jparsley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EJ_L Posted July 4, 2016 Share #2010 Posted July 4, 2016 Happy Birthday Mark! Best wishes for a great day. Elijah, Barbossa, Jack12477 and 7 others 10 Quote "A Smooth Sea NEVER made a Skilled Sailor" - John George Hermanson -E.J. Current Builds - Royal Louis - Mamoli Royal Caroline - Panart Completed - Wood - Le Soleil Royal - Sergal - Build Log & Gallery La Couronne - Corel - Build Log & Gallery Rattlesnake - Model Shipways, HMS Bounty - Constructo Plastic - USS Constitution - Revel (twice), Cutty Sark. Unfinished - Plastic - HMS Victory - Heller, Sea Witch. Member : Nautical Research Guild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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