Newsworthy updates from Chris Watton

[davyboy]

Chris, Have a look at   www.massiv-holz-werkstatt.de  Frank Horschigs website.

 

Example prices for Beech,Cherry and Pear sheets 1000mm x 100mm x 1mm are €3.10,€5.00

and €7.20  respectively. Cheaper to buy sheets and mill your own strips He has a large selection

of other wood and also does strips. I buy my wood from him,good quality timber.  

 

Hope this helps,

 

Dave 

[chris watton]

5 hours ago, davyboy said:

Chris, Have a look at   www.massiv-holz-werkstatt.de  Frank Horschigs website.

 

Example prices for Beech,Cherry and Pear sheets 1000mm x 100mm x 1mm are €3.10,€5.00

and €7.20  respectively. Cheaper to buy sheets and mill your own strips He has a large selection

of other wood and also does strips. I buy my wood from him,good quality timber.  

 

Hope this helps,

 

Dave 

Thank you, looks interesting, I will have a better look later today (just back from work, bed time..). Wish they had an English language option - but if I can secure this wood, I will be happy.

[hollowneck]

Chris,

Member davyboy can likely translate the German site for you, at least the critical bits. I'll bet if you ask him nicely he'll help.

Ron

[SimonV]

As Dave, I also bought wood from Frank Horschig, good quality and consistent dimensions. Only "drawback" ( if it is?) is that he only speaks German (I called him, English is no-go), but in this times with translators I don't see that as a huge problem. Also he doesn't stock boxwood which I get from UK.

 

 

[paulsutcliffe]

Hi Chris

http://www.originalmarquetry.co.uk/ do boxwood strips in many sizes and ebony should you need it

http://www.exotichardwoodsukltd.com/      also do all kinds of species including pear but will need cutting down

Regards

Paul

[Thunder]

Simon, where do you get boxwood from in the uk?

[davyboy]

Chris,you can contact by email in English. That is what I did,made my order/transaction with no problem. (Google translate works fine ) I'm a Scot by the way,my German is not good enough for everything.

 

Dave 

[chris watton]

Thank you guys, I have some prices from Frank Horschig.

 

What would you guys think about cherry or pear for second planking, and boxwood for deck planking?

 

This (deck planking) is fine for single decked vessels like the cutter or a brig/sloop, even perhaps a frigate, but I do intend to design the larger kits in the roughly the same style as my 64th scale Victory, which has multiple decks. That is a hell of a lot of expensive wood!

Edited February 15, 2019 by chris watton

[JeffT]

I like pear and boxwood.

[vossiewulf]

2 hours ago, chris watton said:

 

What would you guys think about cherry or pear for second planking, and boxwood for deck planking?

 

Yes yes yes! Also, YES!

[SimonV]

14 hours ago, Thunder said:

Simon, where do you get boxwood from in the uk?

Castello boxwood from Timberline UK - http://shop.exotichardwoods.co.uk/ (I also buy Ebony from them )

English boxwood (for carvings) from Workshopheaven UK- https://www.workshopheaven.com

 

I buy lumber and then resaw it by myself.

 

Chris, on my build of brig Mercury I used pear and castello boxwood for planking and Castello boxwood for decks ( Brig MERCURY ).

This style is used by Russian modellers as Michael Bezverhny and Alexey Baranov. I prefer pear over cherry for planking, but that is only me.

 

 

Edited February 15, 2019 by SimonV

[tkay11]

16 hours ago, Dubz said:

I can NOT recommend him though!

Re:  www.massiv-holz-werkstatt.de

 

Interesting, and thanks for the info about MassivHolz, Dirk. I've bought from Arkowood in Germany and the owner of that (Oliver König) not only speaks English but also responds readily to communication (but the website is only in German, so you'll need Google Translate for that or some web translation). His prices are on par with MassivHolz but for delivery are much lower than MassivHolz. Delivery is on the slow side (about a week from Germany to the UK) as he probably mills the orders himself when they come in. Others have commented from the French forums that Arkowood is their preferred source, and I think a few from the UK who use this forum have also bought from him.

 

Tony

[chris watton]

11 minutes ago, Dubz said:

Hint, a better Translator to use is: https://www.deepl.com/translator

 

I had very very very bad experience with Horschig in sense of quality and very rude after sales behaviour. I can show pictures if needed. At least i absolutly can't recommend buying strips from him if you wanna have consitence coloring.

 

cheers Dirk

And here's the crux of the matter - do I stay with what I know, or risk spending upwards of £2k on thousands of strips of wood that is no better, or possibly worse quality that the standard wood I use?

 

It is all very well buying a few lengths for a single kit, but I have to buy enough for around 50 kits. I am then stuck with this wood, and if it's not very good, people will complain that the quality of my kits is rubbish! Not only that, but if I order less, I still have to write what the wood is in the manual, which has to be printed, which again, will be many copies and cost a fair amount. If I then decide I cannot get that particular wood strip in a decent enough quality and have no choice but to change it, the parts list is wrong for however many manuals I have left. Can you now see why manufacturers stick with what they know?

 

Having said that, I may just sell a dozen kits and that's it....

 

No point asking for samples, too, as wood is a natural product, and what I receive as samples may not be a true reflection of the  2000 strips (x 6 in differing widths) I intended to order.

 

As a matter of interest, apart from colour variations, what were the edges of the strips like, and were the strips all cut with the grain, rather than against (like some strips of Tanganyika are)? I find that good edges are a must, if they are not, gaps in between the planking can be quite the eyesore.

[Haliburton]

Since it is important to hit the sweet spot for kit pricing, could you offer a wood upgrade set for those prepared to pay, or leave it to other providers like crown timber yard to offer a wood upgrade package? (they have this upgrade set for the Lady Nelson for example)

[chris watton]

35 minutes ago, Haliburton said:

Since it is important to hit the sweet spot for kit pricing, could you offer a wood upgrade set for those prepared to pay, or leave it to other providers like crown timber yard to offer a wood upgrade package? (they have this upgrade set for the Lady Nelson for example)

Yes, but I think it would be better to concentrate on spending my initial development money (which isn't infinite), on developing the kits. At least until I have a few out and are making money. Once that happens, I can then think about investing in extras.

 

I have a couple of other avenues for wood sources to try first, before settling on the norm..

[SimonV]

What about buying lumber and then resaw it at local woodworker? I do all this by myself and do not have big industrial equipment like most woodworker shops (only small Proxxon tools and bigger table saw)?

 

For example I bought 2 pcs. of Castello boxwood (approx. 250 x 80 mm and 1200mm in length). Before buying I saw pictures of exact lumber (not just some generic pictures). It is my lifetime stock and much cheaper then buying already sawn wood.

 

I know, maybe it is not an option, but just my thought. I highly appreciate your project(s) Chris and following with great interest.

 

Regarding Arkowood. I also buy from them and Boxwood which I received was some strange soft brittle wood, not boxwood at all. Pearwood was o.k.

[Chuck]

Chris,  This is actually what I do.  I go through a lot of wood as you will soon find out.  The costs are extreme when you have to buy retail even if you are extended a discount.   I buy the raw 8/4 or 12/4 lumber.   I bought a top of the line bandsaw and drum sander.  I will rip sheets myself or I have a guy that resaws them for me as needed.  I pay him per sheet milled.   

 

There is a lot of waste,  you will get boards that have knots and sap pockets that fall exactly where you have your laser cut parts positioned on a sheet.  So these sheets are set aside and used to rip strips.

 

To give you an idea of how many wood sheets,  my kit of the longboat requires 26 sheets of laser cut part.  Some large and some small.  To make 10 kits at a time I have to order around 350 - 400 sheets of various thickness.   This milling takes a few days to do.  You just have to plan ahead and if you did it yourself or had a friend help you it could save thousands per year.

 

I hand select my Cherry lumber, my Yellow cedar etc.  But remember,  you will never please everyone.  Everyone wants something different and you will soon see how crazy the requests get.  Boxwood order below...

 

Cherry sheets that milled myself for my kits...

 

Its worth considering.  Just find a buddy you know who wants to help and you can probably rip enough for a batch of kits over one weekend.

[ccoyle]

5 minutes ago, Chuck said:

Just find a buddy

I volunteer, on the condition that manufacturing operations are moved to the Peak District. Of course, I will need to be reimbursed for moving costs ... and trained on wood shop procedures.

[chris watton]

Thanks Chuck, very interesting, and very nice.

 

At the moment, I will see how I get on using my Italian colleague, who seems to be able to get the wood sheets and laser cutting done at a good cost right now, much cheaper than anyone here in the UK! As I am working full time right now, and doing this in my (limited) spare time, I will stick with that arrangement - but I am sure this will change in the future, if things work out.

 

It was you that convinced me to try doing this by myself - before that, I had no intention of ever developing another kit again. Now I look forward to the next development...

[Chuck]

Thats great Chris.  I wish you the best and let me know if I can help in any way.

 

Chuck

[Landlubber Mike]

Funny, I actually prefer a darker wood hue on models.  To me, looks more realistic and more "patina'd" than something in very light woods.  Very light woods like using holly for decking just seems to almost impart a painted plastic look.  Certainly nice, but not my taste.  

 

All that being said, I think offering upgraded wood options is a great idea.  I wish more kit makers would do that.  It's why I have bought my last few kits second-hand for substantial discounts off of retail (since I would replace the visible wood anyway) rather than purchasing direct from the manufacturer.

[hollowneck]

A point of personal trivia which I believe is cogent on this thread:

 

if Chuck Passaro hadn't designed a superior kit several years ago (the Syren) and offered it through Model-Expo at a reasonable, yet up-market price, I wouldn't even be on this forum and more than likely pursuing another hobby entirely.

 

Passionate folks here, Chris. All of them, including Yours Truly.

 

Ron

[Blue Ensign]

Hi Chris,

I've always been an admirer of your designed models but have accepted the timber limitations of mass produced kits which I have replaced mostly with Box.

For double skinned kits Limewood is fine for the first planking, but as with my Pegasus build I replaced the second planking with a thin Boxwood strip obtained from:

http://www.originalmarquetry.co.uk/product_details_335.htm

This is fine for 1:64 scale models and the beauty is that it comes in varying widths to allow for shaping  of hull and deck planks, and also very easy to work.

This is what I would do on your proposed Alert  if it becomes available, in the absence of better  stuff.

The inclusion of 'usual' kit wood, would not put me off buying the kit if I liked the look of it, but as a small enterprise I think you need to follow Chuck's lead and lean towards a more high end market.

I consider myself an experienced kit basher rather than a scratch builder, altho' there is not much bashing required in my current Cheerful project.

 

This is what attracted me to Chuck's Cheerful Kit.

Well drawn plans.

Well written online guide to building the model.

Clear history of the subject model

Provision of the main areas of the model in quality wood - keel, stem etc.

Availability of  kit specific timbers - Crown,  Syren.

Quality fittings and mini kits for those tricky to make items.

 

All this makes for a pleasurable  build experience and high satisfaction, eager for the next model.

 

Regards,

 

B.E.

 

 

[vossiewulf]

B.E.'s suggestion to look at thinner woods for second planking and deck planking is a good one. Should reduce costs for you, maybe make more suppliers available, and I've always wondered why the second planking is so thick on kit ships where the builder isn't following contemporary building practices in the first place. Complex curved surfaces are veneered, scraped, sanded and finished every day in furniture pieces with a relative thickness of only a small fraction of that of a typical ship kit second planking.

 

 

 

 

[Thunder]

probably to allow for the fact that if you want to plank in the way of how it was really done there would still be some sideways twisting and as such some 'clinker effect'. If too thin you would sand through. If the planks were wider they could be shaped tapered better to prevent this but that would be more costly than the timber being slightly thicker.

[Mumin]

On 2/15/2019 at 12:22 PM, chris watton said:

Having said that, I may just sell a dozen kits and that's it....

Oh, I suppose you'll sell twice as much from preorders on this forum alone

[chris watton]

Cheers guys, and sorry for the late reply, have been very busy, and not spending as much time on Alert as I would like. But I cannot do a lot more to the prototype model until I receive the castings for the cannon, winch and anchors. I have built up the mast and yards, but cannot step the mast yet.

 

I have done all cleats for the masts and yards in PE, so you can drill and glue and pin them into position - plus they will all be the exact same shape. As the yards are almost always painted black, the brass colour isn't an issue.

 

I also realised I need to get rigging thread supplies sorted..

 

Just for a laugh, I have attached a size comparison of Alert and Lady Nelson (both same scale). Alert is bigger than I thought it was, compared to the LN...

[chris watton]

21 minutes ago, Dubz said:

 

Kinda same issue as with wood. Supply perfect rope or nothing or at least let customers choose 🙂 My 2 cent 🙂

...But let's not lose sight of the fact that I am doing a kit that will sell for under £200, not £2000.....

[Thunder]

Hi Chris, was expecting more answers to your last post. However, these are my thoughts:

 

You have two markets and this type of vessel could be seen as a good beginners kit. Therefore I would suggest the standard wood and threads as no beginner is going to want to spend a fortune. They might not even understand how beneficial it is to buy a well designed kit.

 

On the other hand the kit is designed to meet a very high standard which would appeal to the market on here. A lot of the persons on here, including myself, might not have the facilities to scratch build but want a kit something better than the average mass produced kit. We are fed up with the usual wood and threads and the cost of replacement. Also, the difficulties in obtaining them replacements.

 

Consequently the options are:

 

Try to provide for both markets - more stock for you and boxing issues. Do the standard version by wholesale and the deluxe version mail order direct.

Reach a happy medium - at risk of not selling to either.

Stick to the normal market and standard - lots of competition.

 

Also, for timber and threads I think you should be looking to source from places other than those directed to on here. You need to buy at cost so can you look direct to manufacturers? Understand this might not be possible with first kit as they may want you to buy in bulk.

 

 

[vossiewulf]

I don't think he'd need to stock both, he could stock the basic kit and do a wood upgrade package on demand, that would be the most efficient. Or again on demand, he could produce a cut-down version of the kit with everything but the planking wood, and leave it to the builder to purchase the wood they need.

 

If I was setting up as a kit manufacturer these days, I'd try to have as many upsells as possible, and only assemble the kits with the common parts and with each sale pack the right wood and upgrades and ship. Upgrade to brass cannons, upgrade to fancier blocks (Syren), upgrade to better rope (Syren), upgrade to better/different wood, upgrade to add super CNC machined decorations, upgrade to add photoetched parts, and allow the customer to choose. I would think most will rationalize themselves to all the bells and whistles and you make more money than with just a basic kit. The downside is that probably limits you to mail order, but if the Chinese pirates are making it and Chuck is making it mail-order only, I think that's viable.