Queen Anne Style Royal Barge by Chuck - FINISHED - Syren Ship Model Company - 1:24

[Chuck]

I thought I would give a little status update on this side project.   As some of you know I am working on two new complete kits for Syren...

 

One is of a 1/2" scale Royal navy barge circa 1700.  I am trying to push the envelope a bit with my design concepts and the laser cutter.   It will look like the contemporary model below but actually be almost exactly like the Queen Anne style barge shown in the Kriegstein collection.  Those that have the Seawatch book should check it out.  This will be a fully framed little model and I am very excited about it.  I am building off of the design concept I used for the long boat and pinnace but taking it a bit farther.  I hope these photos will give you a sufficient idea about the scope/concept of the project.  This is a big barge model at over 20" long.

 

I am fortunate to have found someone who is an excellent model builder who will build the prototype for me as it is designed.   Unfortunately there is just not enough time in the day for me to build everything I design.  He will be starting a build log shortly as I get a little further with the design.   Many of you know him and will enjoy his build log as you have enjoyed his others.  This project is a long, long way from being released but I thought I would show you what we are working on in addition to the many other projects.  It also shows you how Syren will bring new projects to market without having to wait for me to build the entire model.   I will be concentrating on finishing the Cheerful and then continuing with the Winchelsea.   At the same time I will be collaborating with others to bring you folks additional stuff!!! 

 

There are no deadlines for these projects...they will get done when they get done.  It is more important that these projects are the best possible within my limits of experience and expertise and they will never be rushed to market.   I will however keep you guys updated.   The last thing the hobby needs are more sub-par ship model projects and kits.  I apologize for the longer development times compared to others.  I hope its not too frustrating.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[donrobinson]

Looks like this will be a very interesting build and kit, will be waiting for more updates 

[justsayrow]

Chuck, your development times drive home the point of the 8 (er, 7; it's a family site) P's: Proper Prior Planning and Preparation Prevent ____ Poor Performance.

[Chuck]

Thank you all for the well wishes and questions  

 

Just to answer a few questions I have received about this Royal Barge.

 

-  It is circa 1700 - Queen Anne Style Royal Barge

 

- It WILL be a full Kit and not a scratch/with some laser cut parts.  My first full kit with everything all included.   

 

- It is 1:24 scale and will be about 20" long.  

 

-The stock kit will be made in Cherry with boxwood carvings and trim in place of gilding.  A boxwood or Pear upgrade version will also be made available as special order.  But the cherry will look great and be far less expensive.  I am using prime pieces that are "cherry-picked" for a lighter tone.  Examine the image below and look at how much waste wood there would be on each frame if Boxwood or pear was used...each kit in those woods will be considerably more expensive and mostly used up for the frame centers.   So consider this if you intend to order a custom cut version in Box or Pear. 

 

- The build board....for lack of a better word is included.  Its a design choice to replace of all of those pesky wood strips people glue across the frames for the longboat and pinnace to stabalize it for fairing and planking.  I have learned a lot watching all of you build those. This replaces the need for those and provides a sturdy base to Clinker plank....only three strakes will be on each kit to mirror the contemporary examples we are all familiar with.  They will be pre-spiled and laser cut to make it easier.

 

- The vertical lines shown on frames "10" and "J" in the previous post are there as a visual reference.  They are there so when you place the keel assembly on top of the frames.... you can eyeball the hull from dead astern and at the bow to make sure its straight and not tilted one way or the other.  Its a slightly different build concept than placing the frames into the keel slots first like the longboat.   The build-board lines them all up so you dont have to fight with trying to get them all centered and perpendicular....those that built the pinnace and longboat know what I am referencing.  It was a pain to do well and there are many many more frames in this kit.  It has proven more effective to place the keel onto the frames afterwards.....  

 

-  I dont have any idea of price yet because its too soon in the prototype process to tell.  

 

Thanks for the interest and its OK to ask the questions in this topic....I am sure many others have the same questions and its easier to answer them once here.  

 

Thanks again

 

Chuck

 

[Mike Y]

Horray, innovation!

I will truly miss the Lego jigs and pesky wood strips, they were a small bits of fun

Based on the explanation it all sounds very smart, especially the vertical line idea combined with such a board.

Just a bit worried if the kit will end up too simple? Looking on a photos, where is the challenge?

No jokes intended, would be interesting to hear your thoughts about the right balance when it comes to difficulty. Longboat or pinnace was a very fun build because it was just on a sweet spot!

[donrobinson]

Very unique Chuck. I see what you mean about the waste especially with pear or boxwood. A thought came to me though, if one was to order the pear or boxwood kit could we then send the scraps back to you and have some nice blocks made    

[Chuck]

Mike

 

 

I understand what you are saying....but rest assured ... this is most certainly an advanced kit.   Although the parts are all laser cut and the jigs and design concept will alleviate much trouble....the builder will need to proceed very slowly and with much care.  To explain a bit about my philosophy for kits.

 

- My goal is to design kits that wont look like kits when they are built.  The quality of the wood and the parts and the historical accuracy.  No ply for fittings...no metal castings....no skimping on the final visual product. To design them in such a way that folks can build them with the same few tools they would use to build any other kit straight of of the box.  Yet when its done, and placed right beside a scratch version of the same subject...most wouldnt be able to tell the difference.   The design I hope will inspire others to use the same concepts after finishing it to slowly cross over to scratch building.  Or adapt the concepts for other kits that are lacking.

 

-  For example...first I wanted to introduce a model that would serve as an introduction to clinker planking.  Not the whole hull...but just a few planks.  So builders might not be nervous about it.  It will  literally be a step by step intro lesson on clinker planking...how to bevel...what to bevel etc.  See below for the one plank

 

 

- second...this model will also serve as an intro to carving.  Yes there will be three small resin castings, but the majority of the carved scroll  work you see on the sides of the hull and transom will be carved by the builder.  These arent complex figureheads or difficult subjects to scare folks who never tried it.   Or never used boxwood.  You will get the piece laser cut from boxwood flat and ordinary... and you will learn some simple techniques to get started carving...with a few extra pieces just in case of a mishap.

 

 

How to secure the piece for carving,  how to use a stop cut,  how to shave and carve with simple tools....how to undercut areas etc.  Step by step.  Nothing to fancy and elaborate...no expensive tools...just giving it a try with a little help.  At least the way I have always done it...I am sure that others will have a better way but this will show how I do it.  These are the two main features that are the focus for me on this project as well as creating a way to frame the boat properly with floors and futtocks like the contemporary model.  And NO...the carvings wont be that small.  It fits on a dime because I was just testing my laser cutter to see how hard I could push it....how small can laser cut something intricate and still capture some detail.   That is pretty dang small.   The real thing is about six times larger.

 

- So for me...designing this kit was a way to introduce a few things that are lacking with most kits....mainly they all look like kits unless you do some serious bashing with no guidance to go with it.  Why not start out with great materials....and guide the builders through it as if it was stepping stone to scratch building.  

 

Having said that...

 

The jigs and laser cut parts I provide are something I would normally make for myself if  I were building this from scratch...by giving them to a builder who might not have the tools or experience to create them,  they will at least get a chance to see a pre-spiled plank so they can understand and can visualize why using a straight strip isnt going to work.  They will see the spiled shape and think....this is nuts.....then after they place it on the hull without any difficulty, hopefully a light bulb will go off.   Then MAYBE they can apply what they have learned and experienced with this kit on the many other kits they build...or scratch projects.  Its hard to explain but I hope it makes sense.   

 

It wont be a beginner kit.  It will be an advanced kit FOR intermediate builders looking to try something they havent done before.  Now I keep showing the same image of the same contemporary model.  It wont look exactly like this one...but its close.   It will actually look a lot more like the one pictured below except for the transom carving.  I am referring to the colors and the lack of carving inside....just bare panels.  This is remember just an intro to carving.  Note how the planks are fastened....not treenailed....they are nailed.  Nailed to the plank beneath it.  Just something new to learn and I am learning right along with it.  And yes it will be a challenge.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chuck

[mtaylor]

Wow... what a concept and philosophy and then seeing that applied.    I hope you have much success with this concept, Chuck and perhaps some others might come over to it.

[Jack12477]

Chuck, is this the same prototype you had sitting on the table next to your vendor table at the Northeast Joint Clubs show in CT this past April ? I'm looking forward to its availability.

[Chuck]

No, that is project number two.....both are currently underway.....the Syren Factory is at full capacity!!!!

 

That is being worked on by Dan Pariser and will take this philosophy to the next level.....

 

You will lapstrake plank the entire hull for a Thames river skiff..1880...all planks are laser cut and pre-spiled....with etched reference lines and instruction.

 

You get the plug...actually laser cut parts....then you plank it like you would with a plug and remove the shell..then insert the frames inside afterwards.   Then there are all the little details.   So that project takes the learning experience even further.   Both are being worked on right now.  Its different than the barge as that kit has removable centers that become the frames...a slightly different concept.  But its all to teach a differnt method of clinker planking with hopefully very thorough instructions and lessons for doing it.  The model shown is Dan's and it is also made from Cherry and boxwood.  They actually make the real things out of cherry and still use these skiffs today.  

 

Dan will be starting a build log of this model as well once it gets further along.

[Jack12477]

Cool, thanks for the update Chuck - looking forward to both projects.

[BANYAN]

Chuck, I really like the look of your latest offering.  this will be a very nice addition to the 19th century longboat.  Add mee to your furture sales list please.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[mikeaidanh]

Chuck you have a way of making people think differently. I know I am going to struggle following your ideas ( I am already exercised by Cheerful! ) but they will be interesting and educational struggles.

 

Good on you!

 

Mike.

[Mike Y]

Chuck, thank you for the very detailed explanation, it is totally clear now. Makes sense, and both models and the approach you have is amazing. Best wishes and hope to see them both in the market! And especially thanks for introducing a proper wood out of the box. 

Hope it will hit the market soon and would be a success!

[flying_dutchman2]

The large scale is awesome. One can add lots of details to each of them.

As I mentioned before to you, It is time to start getting some cheap labor.

Offer free, cheap beer and cigars and they will come in droves. :-)

Marcus

[Chuck]

Thanks guys...But I need help with a flag suggestion.

 

Both kits are seeing some progress.  I am now trying to determine what flags to include.  I know one will be the Union Jack but I m at a loss to what the other should be.  She is a typical Royal Barge circa 1700.   I would appreciate any feedback on the secons flag for suggestions.

 

Chuck

 

[realworkingsailor]

If it is a royal barge, why not the period correct Royal Standard?

 

Andy

[Chuck]

But which one.....its so darn confusing and I thought there might be some English chaps that know for certain.  Searching the web and researching in some books I have come across so many examples.  I dont want to pick the wrong one or maybe they are all right...who knows.  Lots of flags out there and its bloody confusing which one would be correct.

 

What I am trying to prevent is after buying or making a few hundred of these for a kit,  that an MSW member with the expertise needed tells me I used the wrong one.   I am trying to avoid that and figured I would ask those with the knowledge up front.  The English love their flags,,,they have a flag for almost everything and it changes all the time.

 

There surely must be someone on this forum that has an in depth understanding of all this..."Fun with flags"

 

 

 

[druxey]

As Andy says! It would fly at the bow, I believe.

[druxey]

1702 would be Queen Anne's standard. There are images on the Web of the correct heraldic configuration.

[Chuck]

Thank you very much guys....its tough to look at so many variations of these....its like playing...."one of these things is different than the others"  when you were a little kid.  As you can see this is not one of the choices I selected before....LOL.  It will go at the bow with the union jack in the middle.

 

 

[popeye2sea]

Chuck, the standard in the last post is for the Kingdom of Great Britain, established and adopted by Queen Anne in 1707.

 

Queen Anne first used the Royal Standard you show in the earlier post ( Fleur-de-lis and lions in the first and fourth quadrant).  This was called the Royal Standard of England, first adopted in 1603.

 

Regards,

[Chuck]

Thank you very much.....That is great information.   I guess either one would work but since this will be billed as a Queen Anne Style Royal Barge I will go with that one.   There will be a bust of Queen Anne on the transom.   So its a perfect fit.

[mikeaidanh]

Chuck,

 

I do not know if this will help or not. I have a copy of Timothy Wilson's " Flags at Sea" in which the attached illustration can be seen. I have no idea how this publication compares with other sources but it may be of some use.......or merely muddy the waters further!

 

 

Top line left to right;

 

English Royal Standard c 1407 to 1603.

British Royal Standard 1603 to 89 and 1702 to 07.

British Royal Standard 1689 to 1702.

 

Middle line left to right;

 

British Royal Standard 1707 to 14.

British Royal Standard 1714 to 1800.

British Royal Standard 1801 to 16.

 

Bottom line left to right;

 

British Royal Standard 1816 to 37.

British Royal Standard modern.

 

Mike.

 

 

 

[Chuck]

Thank You...its so very confusing and contradicts other dates and standards.   Maddening really.   You think it would be very cut and dry what years these things were used.  So many sources have different dates and different images for these.   I am going with number 4.

[AntonyUK]

Hi Chuck.

The true Union Jack in your post is incorrect.

This is the King's colours.

Have a look here. The flag has a top and bottom

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Jack

 

Worth looking.

 

Regards Antony.

Edited June 15, 2016 by AntonyUK

[Chuck]

I dont think so Antony....this is the 1700 version.  That one was kind of easy to figure out.  Unless I am not understanding what is wrong with the one posted.  Can you elaborate?  If I understand it correctly as a Yank.....before Ireland became part of the united Kingdom there were fewer bars in the flag and its the same top and bottom.  

 

[druxey]

Anthony: Chuck is correct here, as it is the pre-Irish Union flag which was only adopted in 1801, about century after the date of his model.

[AntonyUK]

Hi.

Yes after some reading.. Chuck is correct.

Now I was schooled in Cornwall. And the flag without the Irish one is called the King's colours. ...It's my age.

 

Sorry Chuck.

 

Regards Antony.

[Chuck]

Just wanted to give all of you a more detailed look at what the new Queen Anne Style Royal Barge project will look like.  You are looking at the preliminary draft for the plans.  A PDF is below for a more detailed look.  I am not worried about theft because there are no laser cut parts or templates shown on this sheet.  I removed those.   As the project and prototype gets built,  more details will be added to aid the builder.  Including those parts which were removed as theft prevention. This is why it is so important to have someone else build the project before its released.  They will give me feedback on what additional views and parts would be helpful to include on the plan sheets.  And when its completed they should be quite detailed....even though I think what is shown is probably already detailed enough for most folks.

 

As you can see. This sheet includes many views of the model at various stages of its construction so those elements can be more easily seen.  This includes a planking expansion on the bottom of the sheet.

 

With the plans fully developed all that is left to do is build the prototypes....two of them.  Make adjustments...Update and embellish the plans where needed...write the instructions.....and then start on packaging and production.  This will include making all laser cut parts,  cast decorations...and wood decorations.   

 

The model will be nearly 19" long and 3 1/2" wide at 1/2" scale.  It will very closely resemble the contemporary model pictured.

 

Let me know if you have any questions.

 

 

Chuck

 

queenannebargeplanmsw.pdf