HELP - questions regarding micro drill bits/drill press

[HardeeHarHar]

Hey Gang,

 

Sorry to shout out "HELP!", but I am going through micro drill bits at an alarming pace, and when they break in the wood, it is often a minor disaster.  I have questioned whether there are just a lot of cheap drill bits out there, and that I have inadvertently purchased poor quality bits.  I haven't really shopped around, and I don't know that much about what makes a high quality, durable drill bit.  However, I just was looking on Amazon at 0.5 mm drill bits, and saw that GUHRING sells some kind of special 0.5 mm drill bits at a cost of $305/ for a pack of 10 ( https://www.amazon.com/GUHRING-9006600005000-Precision-Reinforced-Diameter/dp/B0102UZVUQ ).  That made me think perhaps that these bits are somehow better than the ones I have been using, but spending $300 dollars on a pack of 10 0.5 mm bits seems a wee bit excessive.  So, here are some specific questions:

 

1)  How are most people making lots of 0.5 mm holes?

2)  What drill bit manufacturers sell quality bits?

3)  Is a drill press the solution, and if so, isn't the Proxxon drill press to limited in space to be able to slide a ship into place?  It says the column is only 11 inches long!

4) Am i breaking a lot of bits because I am using a pin-vise by hand, and should I try an electric cordless drill like a dremel.  I already have a dremel, but when you turn it on, it starts at a medium speed which makes it an engraver, and not a drill (if you know what I mean).  It also has a lot of wobble/precision that makes it fairly hard to use.

5.  What in your expert opinion is the best solution for my drilling needs, as I need to drill holes for channels and chain plates in my boxwood framed, and danish oil finished, hull of the Granado?

 

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated, and would save me a lot of frustration and swearing.  If I could pay you for consultation services I would consider it.

Best regards,

Brian

Edited February 21, 2023 by HardeeHarHar

[VTHokiEE]

What bits are you using now? I've had a lot of great success with HSS micro bits from McMaster-Carr: https://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/129/2750/30585A94. I had tried some carbide cheap end mill/PCB bits and they were nothing but frustration in a handheld pin-vice. I switched to Uncoated High-Speed Steel Drill Bit, 76 Gauge Size for drilling out the treenail holes on my cross section and never broke a bit (even though I bought 5 just in case). 

 

Currently my big issue is that I don't really drill straight holes by hand, but that's not the bit's fault :-).

[TBlack]

Brian,

A 0.5 mm drill is, what, about a #75 or 76? You can get carbide or steel bits. The carbide will be sharper, but more brittle and break easily. The steel are more flexible and forgiving. The latter are available in packs of 5 from Micro-Mark for not too much (certainly not $300, that's ridiculous). Drill Bit City sells the carbide bits, again in sets of 5.

I use a pin vice for what you are trying to do. Hope that's helpful.

Tom

[VitusBering]

I don't have a good recommendation, only a caution. I've gone through two sets of CNC Micro PCB bits so far, one from XYQ, the other from Walfront.

I've broken several bits in each set and, maybe foolishly, obtained another.

My current third set is from Lothee but I suspect that all three are from the same manufacturer.

 

All of these bits are extremely brittle. They work fine in a pin vise if I'm very careful not to apply any side force at all.

 

They claim to be for CNC applications but I cannot for the life of me believe that even at very high speeds these bits would last more than seconds in a milling machine.

 

I'm also in the hunt for better bits so I'll be following this thread with interest.

If I find a better solution, I'll let us all know.

For now, I would recommend a bench drill press and avoid both pin vises and certainly portable drills.

 

I don't know about Proxxon but it looks capable. I'm also looking at the MicroMark line.

[Jaager]

The stay sharp longer  carbide bits are the wrong type for us.  They are for steel and for use in a precision machine.  The characteristic that makes them hold their edge also makes them brittle.

Hand held - pin vise or a rotary tool - and probably miniature drill press - into wood - involves a bit of flex at the beginning of the bore.  Carbide is not up to this abuse.

 

I don't know what a $30.50 bit can do, but I mainly suspect that the seller is trolling for dupes.

 

I think HHS is the type we want.  Quality steel yields a degree of survival from flex.   Bright is my choice.

I go with domestic manufacturers if given the option.

 

Here is a company that is a supplier - not a manufacturer - but with #70 bits at ~ $1.00 each - it will not cost much to test their products.

https://www.cmlsupply.com/bright-finish/

 

Up scale mills used as a drill press is practical if you do a lot of work with steel too.

We have had an on going vigorous debate about drill press choices.  Do a search in the tool forum for hours of discussion.  I suspect that when a subject has a lot of different favorites as for finding the right answer, that there are a lot of right answers.

The utility of a drill press depends on your style of building.   For some, it is a door stop.  For some, it is an everyday tool.

[vaddoc]

For hand held (rotary) tools in sub milimeter sizes, I am using Heller drills or Proxon drills. I have the small Proxon drill press which is wonderful. Small footprint, easy to use, just great. Combined with carbide drill is a great tool, can drill through anything with accuracy. Would be the thing to take to a deserted island, along with my disc sander. Carbide drills cannot be used with hand held drills, they ll break inside your piece and cause issues. Similarly, be careful using black hardened steel drills with hand held drills- they are also fragile although very sharp.

To avoid breaking bits, go for the fastest speed without burning the wood, though some woods respond poorly and will start smoking when drilled.

Edited February 21, 2023 by vaddoc

[Roger Pellett]

Brian,

 

HSS Drill bits are much more forgiving than Carbide.  I know that it’s easier said than done but make sure that you are not pushing the drill bit too hard .  This causes failure by buckling.  A small bit is a very slender column so any axial load can cause it to buckle.  You can help matters by pushing the bit farther back into the chuck to shorten its unsupported length.

 

Let the drill bit do the work

 

Roger

[tlevine]

I use both carbide bits and HSS.  If I am using a pinvise, the only type of bit I use is HSS.  I will almost always use a carbide bit when I am using a drill press or the sensitive attachment on my Sherline mill.  For drilling treenails, I usually use a carbide bit in my variable speed cordless Dremel.  This requires a steady hand because any torque will snap the bit off in the wood.  

[Toolmaker]

I would endorse the advice for uncoated hss bits from a reputable manufacturer. As has been said, at such fine diameters and without having the required rigidity, hand drilling with carbide is likely going to result in breakages. 

As for the pcb type drills, they are just not suitable for our modelling needs. They need very high revs and controlled feed rates offered by cnc machines. Without the controlled feed rates they tend to screw themselves into wood and any thin walled plastics and other sheet materials. The prices are very attractive but the results often disappoint.

 

Thanks

 

Paul

[HardeeHarHar]

Thanks to everyone for the advice and comments!!  I *REALLY* appreciate all the sage input I have received.  I originally purchased my pin vise and drill bits from Amazon (see link below).  They say the PCB bits are tungstun carbide, which might explain the high failure rate leaving the bit embedded in the wood and resulting in shooting pain in temples and emission of random swear words.  I must note that the pinvise holds the broken end quite securely.  I will listen to the suggestion of @VTHokiEE and try the McMaster-Carr bits.  I just put in an order for a range of bit sizes, with several of each side just in case.  Fingers crossed these uncoated HSS do the trick, I have so many holes to drill.  One other note, I will also likely buy the drill press, but it does seem like there is not sufficient room provided on the Proxxon drill press to slide the hull of the Granado into place.  What do all you kind people think?  Am I correct in this conclusion?

 

Thanks again for all the assistance!

 

https://www.amazon.com/Pieces-Polymer-Jewelry-0-1-1mm-Random/dp/B084T4PB1K/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?crid=2FSKVBXUIOUQO&keywords=micro+drill+bits&qid=1677160965&sprefix=micro+drill+bits%2Caps%2C101&sr=8-2-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEzRlZPQzZOWkpGSlFRJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwOTMyOTg5MUdZQlRGWjNGWVVQUyZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwNTk4NzM2MUlDU1Y0VDhCUkJFTCZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=

[VTHokiEE]

1 hour ago, HardeeHarHar said:

it does seem like there is not sufficient room provided on the Proxxon drill press to slide the hull of the Granado into place.  What do all you kind people think?  Am I correct in this conclusion?

I think that's a fair assessment. The work area height on the drill press (assuming that I am looking at the same one - TBM 115?) is 5 1/2" (worktable surface to spindle end). Once you add the bit in you're probably looking at closer to 5". I don't have the Granado to measure but that seems tight - and clamping the entire hull into place may be tricky. Now the question becomes - for channel pins, chain plates, etc are they under the deck (will the other end of the pin be visible?)? and does it really matter if they are perfectly straight (and what is straight on a curved hull)? I drilled these with a pin-vise on my Alert and my misalignment did not seem to impact anything. 

 

Maybe some day I'll get a drill press, but for now a mill has been a more useful tool for me (enough that I'm considering upgrading mine).

Edited February 23, 2023 by VTHokiEE
incorrect model number

[kurtvd19]

I suggest that you check the diameter of the column and see what a piece of longer stock costs from a supply house near you.  That's what a good friend of mine did.  The excess height is not an issue when doing individual parts and it can allow one to raise the chuck a long way from the base.  It wasn't much to purchase.

Kurt

[HardeeHarHar]

Words of wisdom there @VTHokiEE.  Thanks again!!!  😀

[HardeeHarHar]

19 minutes ago, kurtvd19 said:

I suggest that you check the diameter of the column and see what a piece of longer stock costs from a supply house near you.  That's what a good friend of mine did.  The excess height is not an issue when doing individual parts and it can allow one to raise the chuck a long way from the base.  It wasn't much to purchase.

Kurt

I was wondering if that was an option on the Proxxon.

[tlevine]

What are you using the drill press for?

[HardeeHarHar]

3 minutes ago, tlevine said:

What are you using the drill press for?

I was considering using it to drill holes for sweep port lids, channels, maybe chainplates but there isn’t sufficient X-Y movement I guess…. I could probably use it for the sweep port hinges.

[Roger Pellett]

This is the umteenth time that I have posted about drill presses.  You can find lots of discussion here on the forum.  Use the search function.

 

In a nutshell, I see no reason for buying a hobby sized drill press, Proxxon or otherwise.  While Kurt is right, you can lengthen the column, you cannot change  the other critical dimension, the horizontal distance from the quill to the column.  This will limit the tool’s use.  My first choice would be to look for a quality used machine.  Since not everyone is a tool junkie my other suggestion would be to look at the bench top drill presses offered by stores like Menards, Home Depot, etc.  These store brand drill presses appear to offer a lot of capability for the price.  I would prefer a belt driven tool over one with electronic speed control.  

 

Roger

[HardeeHarHar]

4 minutes ago, Roger Pellett said:

This is the umteenth time that I have posted about drill presses.  You can find lots of discussion here on the forum.  Use the search function.

 

In a nutshell, I see no reason for buying a hobby sized drill press, Proxxon or otherwise.  While Kurt is right, you can lengthen the column, you cannot change  the other critical dimension, the horizontal distance from the quill to the column.  

Understood, and will do.  

[tlevine]

I went to your build log and have the impression that you want to drill holes into the hull with the drill press.  If so, that is absolutely the wrong tool for the job.  If your hands are shaky, your best bet is to make a dimple impression with a punch or pin and use that dimple to guide your hand.  Whether you use a Dremel or a pin vise, this will keep you in the correct spot.  I do own a Proxxon drill press and find it useful for parts that do not need to be or cannot be secured in a vise.  

[HardeeHarHar]

5 minutes ago, tlevine said:

I went to your build log and have the impression that you want to drill holes into the hull with the drill press.  If so, that is absolutely the wrong tool for the job.  If your hands are shaky, your best bet is to make a dimple impression with a punch or pin and use that dimple to guide your hand.  Whether you use a Dremel or a pin vise, this will keep you in the correct spot.  I do own a Proxxon drill press and find it useful for parts that do not need to be or cannot be secured in a vise.  

It’s more to stop breaking bits in the wood when doing it by hand.  My Dremel starts at a high speed at first and wobbles to much to be of much use…

[Roger Pellett]

While It’s much more expensive than a drill press, for serious drilling with wire sized drills <1/16 in, I use a sensitive drilling attachment in my Sherline Milling Column.

 

Roger

[VTHokiEE]

33 minutes ago, HardeeHarHar said:

It’s more to stop breaking bits in the wood when doing it by hand.

I think you'll be happy with the HSS bits - give them a try before considering other purchases for the task. Maybe try on some test pieces to get your confidence up before trying it on your hull. Switching to these bits sent my broken bits per drilling attempt from 1 or 2 broken bits per 8 or 10 holes down to 0 for ~200 holes.

Edited February 23, 2023 by VTHokiEE

[Jaager]

3 hours ago, HardeeHarHar said:

My Dremel starts at a high speed at first and wobbles to much to be of much use…

This is probably your primary problem.  A quality tool that is doing its job correctly does not perform like yours is. 

There is probably enough information about the various tools and options for rotary work here to make up a novella sized volume.

The possibilities cover micromotors, surplus dental drills, Foredom models ....  you do not have to use junk.

Unfortunately, Dremel has stopped marketing my go to model: 8050. 

Their current market leader models seem to be closer to full size drills.  It looks bulky and awkward.

 

The idea of even contemplating putting a complete hull under a drill press????   You drill the part and then take it to the hull.

 

I think that most house brand benchtop drill presses are all essentially coming off of the Eurotool drl-300.00 line.  You do not want to buy from a supplier who stocks the QA rejects.

 

If getting a semi precise angle is the goal, a stick with a vertical hole that is just non-binding diameter of the bit can be used a drill block guide.

 

For trunnel sized holes, you could go really low cost.  At AliExpress there are a variety of small DC motors with small chucks.

There are DC power supplies with step voltage output. 1.5 to 14 V 2amp - They should be ~$25 .   A motor that is about three fingers long and only needs two small gauge wires can get inside a hull - if you can get your hand in.

 

 

 

[mtaylor]

I'd forget the Dremel.  I have a couple and they just in my closet gathering dust.    My go to for small bits is a hand held WeCheer (WE-242).  Its small, light weight, and and has nice low speed setting.  My hands shake too but this tool seems pretty in my hands.

 

As for bits... I bought a wood box from MicroMark a long time ago that had 20 "tubes" of HSS bits starting at a size 61 and going to 92 (very thin little things).  I don't know if they still offer this set but I have broken all the bits of any ones size yet and I do use it a lot.

[Bob Cleek]

What Jaager and maylor said. And now moving from the novella to the encyclopedic treatise...

 

We all own Dremel Moto-tools of one model or another, or, in many cases, we own several. Over time, they seem to secretly breed in dark tool drawers. There are lots of handy uses for a Dremel tool, such as grinding small metal parts, using cut-off wheels for cutting metal, stirring modeling paint with a length of coat hanger wire with a little loop bent in the end, trimming your dog's toenails, and so on. Drilling with tiny numbered-sized bits, however, is not one of them. Neither is drilling in the Dremel "drill press" which mounts the Moto-tool in a cheesy, lightweight and way-too-flexible press. [While not the best substitute for a dedicated full-sized bench top drill press, the much higher quality Vanda-Lay Industries Dremel- or Foredom handpiece-powered drill press is better than the Dremel offering by an order of magnitude. The same goes for their Dremel- or Foredom-powered mill and other accessories. Vanda-Lay's lower-powered offerings do provide a less expensive option for sometimes expensive machine tools, keeping in mind that Dremel tools trade speed for torque which works okay for sanding and grinding, but not so much for drilling and milling. See: HOME (vanda-layindustries.com]

 

Numbered drill bit sizes really aren't designed for powered hand-held drilling at high speeds. Even at a Dremel's low-end 15,000 RPM speed, the slightest movement of the motor out of line with the bit is likely to snap the bit. Similarly, hand drilling with a pin vise requires a very steady hand, a sharp bit, and light pressure to avoid breaking the bit. Use in a drill press, with metal particularly, requires center-punching before drilling and a slow speed and light pressure is to be preferred. There's really no way around these facts. Numbered bits are skinny little things and they can't handle a lot of stress.  One thing than goes a long way towards preventing bit breakage is to "choke up" on the bit by chucking as much of the bit as possible and leaving only enough of the bit extending beyond the pin vise or chuck to drill as deep as you require. This really cuts down on "whip" and stiffens up the bit shaft. If a deep hole is to be drilled, it often pays to only extend a short length of bit and drill down as deeply as it will reach, then extend the bit a little farther from the pin vise or chuck and lower the bit into the previously drilled hole and drill a bit farther until the bit is fully buried in the hole, repeating this process until the entire depth is drilled. The trick is to have as short a length of bit between the hole and the pin vise or chuck as practical, which will keep the bit shaft more rigid and less able to "whip" and snap.

 

Bench top drill presses can be found on sale second-hand and "old 'arn" is often a good investment as long as the machine hasn't been destroyed by a generation of abuse in a high school shop or daily hard duty in a commercial shop. (If you are really lucky, you may find a 1950's vintage Craftsman bench drill press made by King-Seeley which has a threaded quill that permits exchanging the Morse taper mounted Phillips chuck for a quarter-inch collet chuck that converts the drill press into a light milling machine when a suitably sized X-Y table is mounted on the press table.) It would be a good idea to bring along a dial indicator to test for excessive quill run-out before buying a used drill press... or even if buying a new one of those $79.00 Chinese-made mini-drill presses. A drill press that "wobbles" the bit may work for use with larger bits that can take the abuse and drill a less than round hole, but a tiny numbered bit won't survive excessive quill run-out.

 

 

Edited February 24, 2023 by Bob Cleek

[Roger Pellett]

I have three rotary tools.  

 

50 years ago I received  a Sears Lil’Crafty rotary tool as a Christmas present.  I was pleased to get it as I thought that I could use it with small wire sized drills.  Chucking one up and turning the tool on the drill immediately assumed an L shape.  Our friend centrifugal force!  The tool’s RPM was way too high.  The tool gathered dust until I recently got into the brass superstructure for my current project.  It’s major use is powering a disposable cut off disc.

 

My second tool is a Proxxon miniature engraver.  It is powered by a 12 v  power supply.  Again I seldom used It until doing extensive work with soldered brass.  It has proven to be the ideal tool for cleaning up just soldered joints.

 

I was recently given a Dremel Mini Mite two speed cordless rotary tool.  Even the low speed is on the high side for drilling and it seems that whenever I want to use it the battery is dead.

 

For drilling, first choice is a hand Archimedes drill.  Second is a Minicraft 12v “pistol grip” drill.  If I want to spend time setting it up I use my Sensitive drilling attachment in my Sherline, and unlike Jaager I don’t hesitate to put an entire ship model hull under my full sized drill press.

 

Roger

Edited February 24, 2023 by Roger Pellett

[Daniel Kimmer]

I use the Dremel Stylo, very small, corded tool with speed ranges from 5000 to 15000.  I make a small indention with a pin tool to allow the drill bit to find its' location and use cheap Hardor Freight drill bits and they work great.  I use the tool on the low speed and let the tool do the work. I wear a pair of 2.5 reading glasses so I can see the impression in the wood the pin made prior to drilling.  

[aliluke]

Hi Brian

I'm kind of anti power tools because of the space they take up, the mess they create and the COST. I had a vague look at a basic Sherline mill - in NZ$ + shipping and that's worth about four really good kitsets. And then, would I actually use it? Go figure!

 

The only thing I use that plugs in is an airbrush and a light. I use a pin vise for drilling and get my bits from Drill Bits Unlimited https://drillbitsunlimited.com/ I do have some snap-offs which are a pain but it's always my fault. To my mind power tools are probably necessary for scratch builders but for well manufactured kits they are just a (miss-placed?) desire for a power tool rather than a need. Think of the space, mess and money you'll save!

 

Just my opinion.

A

[allanyed]

2 hours ago, aliluke said:

To my mind power tools are probably necessary for scratch builders but for well manufactured kits they are just a (miss-placed?) desire for a power tool rather than a need

What you say makes a lot of sense.  As a scratcher, I love my power tools, but there was no electricity when those gorgeous models of the 17th and 18th centuries were built so we know it can be done without the power.  

Allan

Edited April 11, 2023 by allanyed

[HardeeHarHar]

I must say that the drill bits that I purchased following @VTHokiEE advice have held up remarkably well, despite my abusive nature!  I haven't pushed them all that hard, but they seem to be SOLID.  I'd rather use a pin-vise than an electric tool for drilling holes on the side of a ship model.