Milled Wood Survey - Input for Suppliers

[Boatsinc2000]

When I started HobbyMill it's purpose was to improve the quality of milled wood to the ship modeling community.  Shame on me, but I never really asked any of you for your input as to your needs...I just tried my best to supply you what I thought was the best quality that I could produce.  In some areas I could be falling way short or in others while exceeding your requirements.

 

Because the topic of "Wood Quality" comes up regularly, it is my hope to try to quantify your requirements so that myself and other wood suppliers would have a better idea of your requirements.  You do not need to be one of my customers to answer this survey and I hope that both kit and scratch builders will respond.  The scratch guys could view this as "what they would prefer" if they purchased wood.

 

Perhaps this could also assist kit manufacturers to better understand your requirements for their products as well.

 

I purposely posted this under Wood Discussion rather than under Dealers  with the idea that it could be pinned here for everyone to view and use as a reference.

 

I also thought that a series of poll questions would provide the best structure (If I can figure out the poll function)

 

Thanks for your input!

 

Jeff Hayes

HobbyMill

[Jay 1]

Jeff, thanks for reaching out to gather additional input! While you provide incredible customer service and excellent wood (am your customer for life), I hope other suppliers, mfgrs., and so forth look over the results of your survey and perhaps adjust their products accordingly. While some may argue that providing quality wood will increase costs, I believe most model shipbuilders, and other hobbyists, are willing to pay that bit extra for quality wood.... Thank you again for what you've done for this hobby!

 

Cheers,

Jay

[Modeler12]

Jeff, I appreciate the candor of this effort. 

Instead of us telling you what we think we need, it would also help if you can tell us what you (and other suppliers) can do by way of thickness tolerances, surface finishes, etc. What is the difference in price (your labor) to open up the tolerance on certain sizes (wide pieces that we may need to re-cut)? Is there a way to ask you that when we order or could it be a addendum to your material tables?

[Trussben]

Hey Jeff,

 

Thanks for doing a poll like this, I hope you get a lot of response, I will certainly take the time to fill it in.

BTW the Swiss pear you supplied for my Pegasus is a joy to work with, will be buying more from you my friend, you may need to hire a helper if your business keeps growing!

 

Ben

[Dziadeczek]

Dear Mr. Hayes,

 

I recently was (unsuccesfully) looking for a swiss pear supplier in S. California. Some owners of local hardwood stores looked at me strangely when I mentioned swiss pear - as if they were not sure what this was!  Really?  

 

A couple of weeks ago, while visiting the San Diego Maritime Museum, I asked one of their local ship modelers about his source of swiss pear.

He said that he gets all his wood from the Hobby Mill (but he was not sure if the Hobby Mill sells swiss pear too).

 

Today, I notices your entry, so I checked your website and it does appear that you actually do sell swiss pear.

 

My question is, since I mill all pieces by myself from a larger stock, as needed, I am looking for a larger piece, the size of a typical bookcase shelf. Could I order such a piece from you, or you only send precut pieces to your customers?

 

Additionally, what is the price for your swiss pear (your website doesn't mention prices)?

 

Best regards,

 

Thomas

[Boatsinc2000]

Jay - Great question, but in this instance I am really trying to solicit input rather than tell you what I can or cannot do.  My thinking is that suppliers would look over the results and tailor their offerings to best meet your needs and their capabilities.  I did provide a comment or 2 just because at first I was having trouble understanding how these polls worked and then also to just give some users a reference point in case they did not know the specs on my product.  For this survey what I do is just secondary and I don't want to sway or place a damper on any input.

 

Thomas - I just sell sheets and stripwood because I find it more and more difficult to find top quality bulk wood myself.  Try looking for exotic lumber places who cater to the musical instrument manufacturers.  Also Swiss pear is used in some architectural work.  There is a good supplier of exotic wood in So Cal, but I can't think of their name at the moment.  If I recall they tend to be a little pricey.  Madrone is another wood that is cheaper and it is a west coast wood that is a good alternative to Swiss pear.  Gilmer Wood up in Portland, OR handles Swiss pear and they have a website.  They have a minimum, plus shipping.  The Lumberyard, here in Ohio is in my business, but he sells bulk wood too.  There are also a number of places here in the east like Hearne Hardwoods that carry Swiss pear.  Perhaps if you search and find Hearne or Gilmer, a closer supplier may come up as well.  Swiss pear is typically sold as "flitch" cut wood rather than boards.  I'll let you research flitch cut.  Good luck!

 

Jeff

[Chuck Seiler]

Thomas,

  I can poll our club members to see what they use.  Some go bulk and would knw where to get what you want.   ...or you can come to our next meting ad ask yourself.

[mtaylor]

Thomas,

 

Have you looked here:  http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/384-where-to-buy-wood/    Go down the list to the "rough lumber" area.  Then also read the posts.  There's a lot in to posts that haven't been added to the main list such as Rockler.

[Boatsinc2000]

Dave -

 

Thank you for your input.  As a milled wood supplier it is your prerogative as to how you utilize this information in your business.

 

I believe that we lose sight of the fact that there are other suppliers, both current and future, who may have a different perspective on this subject, especially since this topic is a regularly posted here on MSW.  It is those future ones who I really want to foster.  Heck, we both have admitted that our schedules are full.

 

I do not control who chooses to participate and I am only affording the opportunity for our members to provide input.  The poll has only been in existence less than 24 hours over a holiday weekend, so let's give it a chance.  The benefit of this medium is that unlike a paper survey that can reach only a select few, this topic will be out there much longer and its validity will increase with more participation.  That is why I had asked that perhaps the poll threads be pinned to the top of the Wood Discussion area by one of the Moderators.

 

I will say that I am disappointed that any supplier would go out of their way to discourage input by their customer base by being critical of a survey.  I also believe that your efforts are contrary to the basic principles by which this forum was founded.  Bottom line is that I WANT customer input and I value it. Also, on a personal note, I'm sorry for your cynical approach to the thread.

 

I do agree with one of your implied points in that both of us will be retiring from this business/hobby at some point in time.  I would like to help other suppliers and/or customers to take over and provide the continued availability of our products in future years.  I've said this before that I am always willing to assist anyone to learn how to mill wood or to provide the products that we offer in any way that I can.  When I get some time, I plan to post tips on the operation of my machines and methods just as I did on the Byrnes saw.  That is only one small legacy that I can provide.  On the other hand, with your experience and new video capabilities perhaps after the Caustic project is complete you might consider posting a series of videos on wood milling.  Wouldn't that be a better legacy in contrast to the two of us arguing about who knows more about our mutual customer's needs?

 

Jeff Hayes

HobbyMill

[BANYAN]

A great initiative mate

 

cheers

 

Pat

[Modeler12]

Dave, although there are vast numbers of members here, not all review these topics on a regular basis (if ever).

These surveys are brand new (a couple days) and it would be imprudent to expect total input this quickly. 

Hold your horses, both of you, please.

 

 

My first reaction when I saw the first 'survey' was: Ah here we go again with one of those.

Now I feel a little differently about this and I am curious what other members think about some of the questions and how they are answered.

[rtropp]

Another possible point about volume of responses.... It seems that most builders pretty much stick with what is supplied in the kit.  Bashing, scratch, and those milling their own seem to be in the minority.

Also,  this is spring and this time of year has many members doing other chores or activities.

 

As Jay has said, the survey is still new. It might help to place a brief posting on both the kit and scratch forums to let others know that the survey is available. (If that is allowed.)

 

 

Richard 

[BANYAN]

Now, the outcome of that discussion is something I would like to read and see implemented

 

cheers

 

Pat

[nguild]

I tried another supplier on previous occsions and found the wood under sized. Not by much, but those thousandths accumulate over the length or breadth of a model and things wind up just a bit out of true.

 

Met Jeff at our annual meet with six other model clubs a few years ago.

 

Problem solved!

 

Ned Guild

USS Constitution Model Shipwrights Guild

Edited May 31, 2014 by nguild

[ChadB]

Just took all your surveys- I honestly can't think of anything more I can ask from your business. Your milled sheets are smooth as glass and spot on thickness, which I enjoy since I don't need anything besides a finishing sanding. Also, when I order a thickness, say 3/8"- I would expect it to be 3/8" and not 11/32"- and I've never had that happen. I really enjoy the individual packaging just as a way to keep different thicknesses together, too. Maybe I look at this hobby differently than most, but I would rather take my time and build 4 or 5 models in my lifetime as close to Bernard Frolich- standards as I can get using quality products rather than a roomful of models slapped together using subpar products, and until I get to the point of milling my own wood (Gilmer Wood is like 20 mins from my house) you provide that quality product. Thanks!  -Chad 

[Boatsinc2000]

Pat -  Thanks for all of your comments throughout the survey.  I'll probably wait to add any additional comments unless there is a question to add clarity.  Just don't want to sway any input.  As for the meeting, it probably won't happen.  I tried to get Sky TV to offer coverage down your way but they declined due to lack of entertainment value and Fosters wouldn't provide sponsorship!

 

Ned & Chad -  Thanks for the kind words.  Chad, wish I lived 20 min from Gilmer...Right now I've got one of their shipments stuck on a train somewhere outside of Chicago.

 

Thanks to everyone for their "likes" and continued support.

 

Dave -  Thanks for the continuing input.  You seem obsessed and paranoid over a topic that you feel has no value.  I really have difficulty grasping that concept.

 

I know that you enjoy the discussion as much or more than the content, but I won't be responding any more.  Our philosophies are at either end of the spectrum and we will never be on the same page, but feel free to post as much as you like.

 

I agree that we are not competitors.  Not because we have our plates full, but because we offer totally different products.  I just offer mainly milled sheets and strips; whereas you offer a host of other products.  The only place where there could be any overlap is perhaps milling wood.  You don't indicate your milling specifications, but from what you have posted on MSW my approach and yours are so totally different that they are at either ends of the spectrum.  So much so that they are not even comparable.  You have a loyal customer base and you have added a lot to the hobby, especially for customers who prefer to do their own dimensioning.  The only issue that I take is when you say that you know best what is needed by your customers and more closely dimensioned products are unnecessary.

 

As you have said, your customers just take what you ship them and they are very happy with your products.  If that is the case, then why is it that a portion of HobbyMill's business has always been to provide replacement wood to your customers?  I just received 2 more replacement orders within the past 60 days where your customers were not satisfied with the dimensioning and finish of your products.  That is just not right and it validates to me my philosophy that tighter dimensioning is appropriate.

 

Thank you also for your obsession with how I run my business as a service to this Hobby and the economics lesson.  Not really sure how it fits with a quality survey?  However, you forgot to include that I used to give away product to Ohio customers and for a while I was also giving away boxwood end-cuts to customers.  Dave, I had a very successful career as president of a good sized company and then the head of a division of a public company which, I believe, afforded me both the business acumen and financial resources to run a hobby business after retiring at 52.  But thanks for your concern!

 

I understand your thoughts on the video...but you missed my point.  I believe that it is called "Paying it Forward."  That is a big portion of what this whole exercise on the survey is about...establishing some standards for both suppliers and customers that will help the hobby go forward, but you missed that too!

 

Jeff Hayes

HobbyMill

[Landlubber Mike]

Jeff, I greatly appreciate you posting these surveys to better understand your customer base and their needs.  Even if these surveys fail to meet rigorous statistical standards, I still think you can get some ideas from new and existing customers that help both sides of the relationship.   Seems like business 101 principles to me

 

I'm new to scratching my own parts and working with high quality woods, but after working with your swiss pear over the past week, I am a very happy customer and not sure that I'll ever be able to go back to kit wood.  I personally was fine with the lead time on my order, as I just submitted it earlier than I might otherwise have.  

 

On the video thing, I think it would be incredibly helpful for those of us new to these types of power tools to see how the experts work with them.  I recently bought the set of Byrnes tools, and while I can figure out the disc and thickness sanders, the table saw has me pretty nervous.  I know that you are very busy on things, but a few of us (and our appendages) would be eternally grateful if someone put out a video how-to on using the Byrnes table saw - using the rip fence and cross-slides, using the taper gauge, general use of feather boards and push sticks, potential dangers, etc.  

[rtropp]

Mike,

I was feeling the same way when I was buying the Byrnes saw.  Then I received some advice that viewing the table saw videos on youtube would help.  Just have to think it through in miniature. 

 

I researched youtube and did find a ton of stuff that was helpful in getting started.  Between that and Jeff's write up on his HobbyMills website, I have started to rip some decent planks as well as began to use it for cross cuts.

 

When I see a tool being used, like push stick, I just make one a lot smaller to fit the wood I have been using. Also, buying the wood pre milled so it is clean and square helps tremendously.  I don't have the set up to mill large pieces down to model size so I buy from Jeff and others who make the billets in small thicknesses and buy those for my stock. Also, I know the quality of the wood from suppliers who specialize in miniature modeling eases the process.

 

A video tutorial would be great, but at my age, who has time to wait

 

Richard

Edited June 2, 2014 by rtropp

[Shazmira]

Jeff, you know I have purchased from you in the past, and will continue in the future as I could not be happier with the quality of the product! Your quick response by email goes a long way toward keeping the customer informed of time lines for delivery. As a modeler I understand the need for lead times ( a lesson I had to learn the hard way), but new modelers may not "get it" the first time they order. I am sure they are just like me, eager and want to start NOW, and don't stop to think that custom orders take time, and there are others in the queue before them. 

My only complaint, and it is not a topic you address in your polls, since it is not directly related to wood and the quality and packaging, is the ease of making the purchase. I have been a long time internet buyer and for this hobby that trend has continued and is a necessity in order to have access to the things I need; however, I also like the internet for ease of payment and purchase. The mailing the check thing I find a pain in the butt, perhaps just a personal issue, but I would much prefer making a payment through paypal at the very least.

Your way works, and I have adapted to it, but I do wonder if you would perhaps have even more business if you changed your payment options to something more user friendly.

 

Robbyn

[realworkingsailor]

I agree with Robbyn. I would love to replace the timber in some of the kits I have bought (and who knows I may even try scratch building something in the future), but I also find your ordering system a bit... well... awkward, even more so than some since I'm not American. I know others further afield than myself have made it work, but it would be nice if everything could be done online.

 

Andy

[dvm27]

As a very small hobby business owner (Admiralty Models) I can understand why the Hobby Mill takes only checks. PayPal fees, as well as credit card fees, are rather exorbanent. If you're already working on a small profit margin it becomes that much less desirable. If you incorporate these services into your business you have to raise prices to cover them. But I certainly agree that foreign payments become rather awkward to say the least.

[BANYAN]

Hi all;

 

Greg, Jeff et al - I have the utmost respect for people running small business; especially those catering for specific needs. 

 

However, as an International purchaser of many bits and pieces I have come to the point where "No PayPal - No Purchase".  This is a result of the security issues surrounding hacking etc so I will no longer use a CC payment as you never know who is retaining/not retaining CC details on their servers (secure or not).  I am not saying that PayPal will never be hacked (let's hope it never is though), but it is easier to fix passwords etc in one place only.  The hoops to jump through and additional costs arising to the buyer in trying to sort out cheques and bank transfers etc usually far exceed the costs of PayPal to the Trader and I for one, am more than happy to accept the additional/added fees for PayPal convenience added to an order than try and do it any other way.

 

Just for consideration

 

cheers

 

Pat

 

Edit:  When purchasing I usually prefer to buy (and pay) for a quality product rather than the cheapest - adding PayPal etc handling charges is but a very minor consideration (from my point of view).

Edited June 9, 2014 by BANYAN

[Boatsinc2000]

Hi Pat,

 

I fully understand and agree with your logic.  That was the premise by which PayPal was founded...not giving out credit card information to a host of small suppliers.  As for the fees, there are always ways around that issue too.

 

However,in my case I had an actual identity theft issue directly linked to PayPal and it has been documented that they have been hacked in the past.  I realize that PayPal competes with banks, but when I was changing some of my financial security procedures, my banks gave PayPal low scores on security.

 

So, unfortunately it is really sad, but I don't believe that any payment processing system is totally safe.

 

I realize that there are customers who will not be awarding me their business due to my decision not to offer the convenience offered by PayPal, but it is a business decision based upon my own experience and, more importantly, my sense of personal security.  Sorry!  Perhaps if I had a different experience then my opinion would be more in line with so many of you who have had a positive experience.

 

Jeff

HobbyMill

[rtropp]

HI all,

Not sure I agree that this is much of a problem, at least for those in the U.S.  I believe Jeff received my check in three days.  Given the lead time for ordering, this did not really cause a delay. 

Richard 

[WackoWolf]

No matter which kind of on line banking there is, it can and will be hack. Just look at what happen with "Target" this year and now eBay is saying that they also have been hack. If it on line you are taking a big chance. The way Jeff is doing it is more safe for us and him, it may be a hassle for a good amount of people, but I would rather be safe then be hack somewhere down the line. A good amount of time a person doesn't know that they have been hack until months after it has happen. A postal money order is almost like cash, so it might take a little longer but you get what you pay for and you didn't get hack. And yes I do agree with most about wanting to use Paypal but like Jeff said it has already happen once, once is enough for me to know about. Sorry just my option and I have nothing to do with Jeff's company in any way.

[gjdale]

I'd like to point out, as an international customer, that Jeff does accept payment via Western Union money transfer. This can be done online, or if you prefer, at your local post office. Admittedly there are fees involved, but these are paid directly by the customer, not by the supplier and then passed on to the customer. While PayPal might be widely accepted, I can certainly understand Jeff's perspective and don't find the Western Union transfer too much of an inconvenience. And yes, you need to be alert for scams, just as you do with any other online purchasing system.

[Dan Vadas]

This one's for daves, aka Dave from Dlumberyard.

 

Allow me quote some of your previous comments regarding the validity of Jeff's poll :

 

Look at this poll there are 12,749 people on this site and less than 50 answered the questions.

 

As I'm typing this reply we are about to hit 13,000 within a couple of hours. True about the number of members who have taken the Poll - I just added 1 to the total as I was unaware of it until today.

 

Let's analyze some statistics.

 

OK, so we have nearly 13,000 members. One thing to take into consideration is how many of those are actively involved in the site - i.e. have they actually made a post yet? 7,620 haven't made ONE post.

 

I would consider a minimum of 10 posts as being "active". There are exactly 1,000 members who have made at least this number of posts.

 

Starting to narrow the field a bit?

 

Let's move on to your next quote :

 

2. a huge amount of builders are kit builders so very few are scratch builders and a % of those would rather buy wood than mill it

 

 

No argument from me here.

 

Here are the numbers, or as close as matters. Bear in mind that there are quite a few completed Logs in both categories, as well as "will never be finished" ones, but they should even out to about the same percentage :

 

Kit Build Logs = 880

Scratch Build Logs = 308

 

As you said, the majority are Kit builders - 2.85 times as many as Scratch. Also, as you said, very few Kit builders will buy aftermarket Milled wood, probably about the same percentage of Scratch builders will mill their own. I'm comfortable with that figure.

 

Let's narrow the statistic down a bit further.

 

Since this Poll came on air on May 27, 500 members have posted. Divide that number by 2.85 (Scratch builders) and we get 175 that may have had the interest in partaking in the Poll.

 

Now we can subtract the number of members (like myself) who didn't know it even existed until today - I can't put a figure on THAT one - and your "statistic" has been blown out of the water .... miles high.

 

Food for thought Dave?

 

  Danny