Newsworthy updates from Chris Watton

[chris watton]

On ‎2‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 11:13 AM, Thunder said:

Hi Chris, was expecting more answers to your last post. However, these are my thoughts:

 

You have two markets and this type of vessel could be seen as a good beginners kit. Therefore I would suggest the standard wood and threads as no beginner is going to want to spend a fortune. They might not even understand how beneficial it is to buy a well designed kit.

 

On the other hand the kit is designed to meet a very high standard which would appeal to the market on here. A lot of the persons on here, including myself, might not have the facilities to scratch build but want a kit something better than the average mass produced kit. We are fed up with the usual wood and threads and the cost of replacement. Also, the difficulties in obtaining them replacements.

 

Consequently the options are:

 

Try to provide for both markets - more stock for you and boxing issues. Do the standard version by wholesale and the deluxe version mail order direct.

Reach a happy medium - at risk of not selling to either.

Stick to the normal market and standard - lots of competition.

 

Also, for timber and threads I think you should be looking to source from places other than those directed to on here. You need to buy at cost so can you look direct to manufacturers? Understand this might not be possible with first kit as they may want you to buy in bulk.

 

 

Thank you for your thoughts.

 

I hear what you're saying and I agree! However, I need to get some kits out first. My first priority must be to develop the kits, this is where all of my investment money is going. Once I have a few out, I can then 'fine tune' each kit to include various packages. Right now, let me tell you, it is taking up all of my time just developing the base kit and getting all of the various supplies together. I know some say that if they were developing kits they would include all the bells and whistles from the off, but again, I haven't go an infinite amount of money to spend. For example, I am about to put in an order for various thicknesses of rigging thread that is well over £500, and this is just one small aspect of the kits! I am also waiting for new wood strip samples to arrive.

 

I am waiting for costings for the laser cutting and photo etching, there may well be room to sell some of these separately, but I haven't had time to think about anything other than the kit as a whole. I have almost completed the prototype model, it is mast and bowsprit/yards and is rigged, just waiting for the cast cannon barrels and anchors now. Hell, I haven't even had time to think about a website yet! This little model has been one hell of a learning curve..

[chris watton]

Almost done, just waiting for a couple of parts to complete..

 

I added the sheets and bowlines to the yards otherwise they would have had hardly anything on them, plus it keeps them more or less in place a little better..

[Haliburton]

Beautiful work!  When are you hoping to have your first production run ready to market?

[chris watton]

45 minutes ago, Haliburton said:

Beautiful work!  When are you hoping to have your first production run ready to market?

Thank you! I think around May, hopefully I will have got everything sorted by then.

 

The hatch combings are not just wood strip, but laser cut and fit together with simple half lap joins. I prefer laser cutting as you can have the exact scale height - same with gratings in PE, they can have the right size square holes, and the correct outer dimensions with no restrictions

Edited February 26, 2019 by chris watton

[maaaslo]

looks nice. where do I sign up?

[chris watton]

maaaslo, I am currently having a website sorted thanks to a very kind forum member!

 

I can confirm that the deck planking will be Castello Boxwood and the second/outer hull planking will be Pear Wood (But have ordered a similar amount of Cherry Wood, too)

 

All rigging thread is ordered, it is the same thread that I have always used for every prototype model I have rigged, so I do not have any problems with it.

[Jaxboat]

To quote Captain Jack Sparrow: "It's a very pretty boat". Bravo Chris!

 

[Malcolm Greig]

Very handsome looking ship, great scale and excellent quality, its certainly a kit that I would purchase as a novice,

and kit I would be confident of completing (I spend more time researching than building, I'm ashamed to admit).

 

Malcolm 

[ASAT]

Chris, that is a great model - finally a kit i clan purchase and not have to change out most of the wood in the kit, I’m excited for your future as a manufacturer! Which model is next? Are you saying yet?  

 

Lou

[chris watton]

On ‎3‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 7:33 PM, ASAT said:

Chris, that is a great model - finally a kit i clan purchase and not have to change out most of the wood in the kit, I’m excited for your future as a manufacturer! Which model is next? Are you saying yet?  

 

Lou

Thanks guys

 

As for the next model I am already working on it, as I need the figurehead and stern decoration sorted, and will feel better when I already have these areas sorted. It is over well over twice the size of Alert, and quite pretty with 50 guns..

[Bob Cleek]

On ‎2‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 5:00 AM, vossiewulf said:

If I was setting up as a kit manufacturer these days, I'd try to have as many upsells as possible, and only assemble the kits with the common parts and with each sale pack the right wood and upgrades and ship. Upgrade to brass cannons, upgrade to fancier blocks (Syren), upgrade to better rope (Syren), upgrade to better/different wood, upgrade to add super CNC machined decorations, upgrade to add photoetched parts, and allow the customer to choose. I would think most will rationalize themselves to all the bells and whistles and you make more money than with just a basic kit. The downside is that probably limits you to mail order, but if the Chinese pirates are making it and Chuck is making it mail-order only, I think that's viable.

I'd even take it a step beyond that, Vossie. I'd make the entire "kit," an "upgrade." Particularly with 18th Century British Navy vessels, the Admiralty has already standardized all the "parts" for a lot of the smaller vessels that are now apparently becoming more popular and with good reason. I think a lot more people would get into modeling if they didn't have to build gilt-encrusted ships-of-the-line right out of the gate... or settle for the hugely overpriced garbage that passes for so many "beginners' kits."

 

I'd create a "cafeteria" kit system, totally "on line." No "brick and mortar" sales. No investment in a huge inventory of boxed kits. No middlemen to eat up the profits. To the extent possible, all parts would be standardized. (The models would all be the same scale.) The plans and instructions would be of the highest quality. The buyer would get a "menu" for any particular model and that model's menu would have all the necessary parts, or parts "packages," indicated, all of the highest quality, but with perhaps a couple of "price levels," for example, real brass or plastic cannon, two or three "levels" of wood stock, and so on. The aim would be to provide the builder with an online inventory of whatever they needed to build the model via "one stop shopping." The buyer would even have the option of laser-cut parts or making their own. The buyers could buy whatever they wanted, but all would be of top quality and "super-top quality." There'd be no need to buy it all at once, either. Purchases could be timed by the buyer to suit their pocketbooks or rate of building. The model wouldn't get "boxed" as a "kit," but rather the instructions and parts and materials would be sold as the customer ordered them and shipped out. Every model would have a "build log," if not a "group build" on MSW.  

 

The "generic" parts, in but one scale, would be, like Syren's stuff, "finestkind." They would also be available to scratch and semi-scratch builders as well as the "kit" builders. This "parts house" approach would mean that nobody who bought "the model," would ever had to throw out "what came in the box" and go looking for after-market parts and materials elsewhere, while, at the same time, those in the market for aftermarket parts for other manufacturers' inferior kits would know that the finest aftermarket items were available for "one stop shopping" at my online shop. The objective, always, would be to offer a resource through which a builder could build a model that they could be confident was top quality. There would be no need to start scratch-building to achieve a respectable model from the kits.

 

Standardized parts of the highest quality would mean that there wouldn't have to be expensive "tooling up" costs as any particular model was added to the line. If the "inventory" ("real time," of course) including things like the best brass belaying pins, the best blocks (cherry or boxwood,) the best cannon (brass or plastic) and so on, was standardized, if one kit became "stale" on the market, the same parts would be used in another model in the line. The "monster" kits with acres of carved gingerbread are best left to the manufacturers who have been in that segment of the market for a long time. The costs of tooling to provide all those carved parts take far too long to amortize and the super-expensive kits are too difficult to sell because most people realize they are beyond their ability and those who have the ability know that the quality of those kits is far below their standards.

 

In other words, if I were king, I'd be separately selling plans, building instructions, parts, and materials, and the modelers could decide whatever level of quality they wanted to build to, but, as you note, it's likely most all would opt for the top of the line, particularly if they were buying parts and materials along the way as they built, rather than having to make a several hundred dollar "leap of faith" when first buying their "kit."  Frankly, I think that the future of ship model kits, such as it is, looks a lot more like what Chuck Passaro is doing with Syren than anything anybody else is doing right now.

[Thunder]

 

Do you really think that would work? Has Chris got an army of pickers for packing all the items? 

 

It sounds great but surely that is a scratch build parts service. A lot of people buy a kit because they don't want to do all that. The inventory of parts would have to be massive as they weren't that standardised, so you will end up using nearest fit. Isn't that what we complain about with the poorer kits.

 

Sounds idyllic, and I would love it, not sure if would work other than offering all the parts from a current kit and then this list growing as the kit list grows. But this already happens.

 

[vossiewulf]

I don't see how you could make common parts across different ships unless it's deck/hull fittings and yards/masts and even then you'd have to offer a series of say 32/38 gun RN frigates from the 1780s for it to make sense.

 

What I hope for in the long run is Chris and Chuck or people like them have reasonable cost access to excellent laser and zillion axis CNC milling machines and highly accurate stereolithography 3d printers. With a (reasonably significant) amount of CAD work, you could offer multiple decorations and figureheads for ships in a class, or offer POB and POF versions of the same model. Line and some fittings and strip wood is stocked, the rest of the parts are produced when an order comes in and the person has chosen this particular ship's decorations and the POF version and selected any other options like wood or quality of fittings. That way they wouldn't have to maintain large part inventories, and the flexibility for the customer leads to more orders.

 

But since none of us are actually doing it for a living, we just have to see whether any of it makes sense to Chris and Chuck, who are the people putting out money to produce kits.

Edited March 13, 2019 by vossiewulf

[chris watton]

1 hour ago, vossiewulf said:

I don't see how you could make common parts across different ships unless it's deck/hull fittings and yards/masts and even then you'd have to offer a series of say 32/38 gun RN frigates from the 1780s for it to make sense.

 

What I hope for in the long run is Chris and Chuck or people like them have reasonable cost access to excellent laser and zillion axis CNC milling machines and highly accurate stereolithography 3d printers. With a (reasonably significant) amount of CAD work, you could offer multiple decorations and figureheads for ships in a class, or offer POB and POF versions of the same model. Line and some fittings and strip wood is stocked, the rest of the parts are produced when an order comes in and the person has chosen this particular ship's decorations and the POF version and selected any other options like wood or quality of fittings. That way they wouldn't have to maintain large part inventories, and the flexibility for the customer leads to more orders.

 

But since none of us are actually doing it for a living, we just have to see whether any of it makes sense to Chris and Chuck, who are the people putting out money to produce kits.

I have looked very deep into 3-D printers with the aim of purchasing one and learning to draw the 3-D carvings myself. (in fact, one of the deciding factors of selling my car to invest was because I wanted a 3-D printer). However, after much research and visits to various 3-D printer companies, this area is a complete mine field, and the thought of spending many thousands of Pounds (or Dollars, the cheaper ones would be no good at all for fine prototype parts), only to find that the investment isn't all it's cracked up to be, or a newer, much better model may come out put me off. For now, it is better financially to sub contract such work, as, at the moment, there are not enough hours in the day for me already.

 

I must stress that right now, it really is just me doing this, with my wife (who also works full time) helping when she can in searching for reliable suppliers (she will also pack, I hope..). Also, the new designed for the larger kits are meant for everyone, from beginner to expert. This means the development is more complex than standard kits with a lot more parts, which should make it easier for the model maker. I love looking at the finished model, and to that end, I try to design the kit to be as painless as possible in order for me to get there.  I want the kits to be fun for the relative beginner, and a good starting point/blank canvas for the more experienced to sink their teeth into.

 

Most of the parts are bespoke to that particular model, and as the subjects I have chosen for the first 6-8 models are quite different in looks and sizes, the fittings will not be interchangeable. For example, even with something as seemingly simple as a 6 pounder cannon barrel and carriage; the larger 2nd kit has 6 of them, but the sizes are larger than those of the Alert's 6 pounders. So, even very similar fittings can vary from kit to kit - I guess if I was more business/money minded, I would just say they are the same (on paper) and use both for the same kits. But that would be wrong, at least to me.

 

I am sure there will be certain fittings available in the long run like cannons, anchors etc. But for now, I have to build up the range. so every new kit will have its own set of cannon, anchors, decoration, capstans, winches etc. Even the hatch combings are now all laser cut to the exact size as the original plans, together with gratings, which are now photo-etched parts so I do not have to compromise of size and shape (many combings and gratings taper fore or aft).

 

At the moment, and for the next 2-3 years at least, I will be concentrating on building up the range of kits I want to see on the market (assuming they sell and I can invest in the next development), so working on the core developments, rather than using my time to sort out many added extras to sell separately, this isn't really at the forefront of my plans. A commercial kit will always have to be a compromise, otherwise they become way too expensive for the vast majority (in our little niche within a niche) to buy - but it's knowing where to compromise that is the trick.

[vossiewulf]

1 hour ago, chris watton said:

I have looked very deep into 3-D printers with the aim of purchasing one and learning to draw the 3-D carvings myself. (in fact, one of the deciding factors of selling my car to invest was because I wanted a 3-D printer). However, after much research and visits to various 3-D printer companies, this area is a complete mine field

Yeah, that's why I haven't gotten one either. I don't want an extrusion machine as I think they're inherently limited in the scale of detail and quality of surface finish. But when you look at stereolithography machines, well if you're willing to spend $5k-$8k you can get an excellent reliable machine, but that's extremely expensive. And all of them under that price range seem to come with some gotcha or other and seem to need constant maintenance and adjustment to get what you want. In short, not really baked for hobbyist/prosumer use. And unfortunately I've seen little progress in the last couple years.

[chris watton]

51 minutes ago, vossiewulf said:

Yeah, that's why I haven't gotten one either. I don't want an extrusion machine as I think they're inherently limited in the scale of detail and quality of surface finish. But when you look at stereolithography machines, well if you're willing to spend $5k-$8k you can get an excellent reliable machine, but that's extremely expensive. And all of them under that price range seem to come with some gotcha or other and seem to need constant maintenance and adjustment to get what you want. In short, not really baked for hobbyist/prosumer use. And unfortunately I've seen little progress in the last couple years.

Yes, I was looking at the more expensive machines. However, companies that can 3-D print your STL files are a dime a dozen right now, so prices are competitive. I got the two cannon, anchor and the two winch STL files 3-D printed quite cheap - so cheap that it would take an £8k machine a lifetime to pay for itself. I invested some of that money earmarked for a printer into better quality wood strip instead.

 

ETA - When I looked at the original plans for my next model, my first thought was 'HMS Fly on steroids'!

Edited March 13, 2019 by chris watton

[Thunder]

Chris, does this mean I need to sell my Mordaunt kit to make way for your next model?

[chris watton]

16 hours ago, Thunder said:

Chris, does this mean I need to sell my Mordaunt kit to make way for your next model?

Well, I do have to design and build it first, I will update this thread with progress pics as I go along.

 

ETA - I always like the Mordaunt kit (and their Royal William).

Edited March 14, 2019 by chris watton

[chris watton]

Oh, what would you guys think of a 64th scale model of Bellona, designed in the same style as Victory with all deck detail - although it would not be cheap?

[Kevin]

35 minutes ago, chris watton said:

Oh, what would you guys think of a 64th scale model of Bellona, designed in the same style as Victory with all deck detail - although it would not be cheap?

I would go for it, treat is as a retirement pressie to my self in two years time, 

[Morgan]

Would love it, you can put me down for a pre-order.

 

Gary

[paulsutcliffe]

Oh yes

 

[Blue Ensign]

Bellona is a fine subject, the classic British 74.

I also like subjects with plenty of reference history, in the case of Bellona there is the NMM model and the  Anatomy of the ship book by Brian Lavery.

 

Personally I am waiting for your cutter Alert, that too has an Anatomy series book by Peter Goodwin.

 

Every success to you Chris.

 

B.E.

[SimonV]

Bellona is my favourite ship. I saw your model here on MSW a long time ago. 

I would buy it, regardless of price. Count me for pre- order.

Edited March 14, 2019 by SimonV

[vossiewulf]

I would rather see ships that don't already have existing kits. There are many other RN 74s that played important roles in various battles like Captain, last I checked that was the ship Nelson commanded when he captured two larger ships at St. Vincent.

[chris watton]

6 hours ago, vossiewulf said:

I would rather see ships that don't already have existing kits. There are many other RN 74s that played important roles in various battles like Captain, last I checked that was the ship Nelson commanded when he captured two larger ships at St. Vincent.

Yes, but the problem is that most British 74's all look the same, many with the same dimensions even. Take Bellona, although a different class, has (virtually) the same configuration as the Vanguard, Elephant, Captain and countless others. The differences being mostly superficial.

 

What sets Bellona off from the others is her decoration, both stern and sides (although in reality painted frieze on the sides). Plus I prefer the colour scheme, with varnished sides rather than painted fully. I really liked my first designs for Bellona, and would love to do it again from scratch (as original designs were flawed and were ironed out with the Victory prototype)

 

I know Corel do a Bellona, but this is in a very small scale, isn't it?

 

 

[hollowneck]

Chris,

 

Corel's Bellona is 1:100. USD is $649.00

 

Ron

 

 

[chris watton]

Cheers Ron.

 

I am quite sure that my Bellona will not look like that. (although for such a small scale, it is a very nice kit)

 

I guess it doesn't matter what I do, there will always be someone who would prefer something else! lol

 

But I do like Bellona, it is a very good looking model, and I did say that I want to design stuff that I would like to build..

[JeffT]

55 minutes ago, chris watton said:

Cheers Ron.

 

I am quite sure that my Bellona will not look like that. (although for such a small scale, it is a very nice kit)

 

I guess it doesn't matter what I do, there will always be someone who would prefer something else! lol

 

But I do like Bellona, it is a very good looking model, and I did say that I want to design stuff that I would like to build..

I'm sure there are some things you could do to make the kit unique 

[vossiewulf]

Chris I understand, but one of the (thankfully few) disappointing things concerning the ship modeling hobby is the lack of variety - go to the top 10 kit manufacturer web sites and you find the same ships over and over again as if manufacturers have talked themselves into a fear of doing anything else. It leaves huge numbers of important and interesting ships only available to scratchbuilders.

 

Captain was a suggestion but I won't begin to say I really know which ships are best for you to do, the only point I'm making is that you're a creative designer and I at least would like to see that creativity expressed in interesting ships that don't yet have a model.

 

I already have Vanguard in the closet, so I'm a hard sell for a RN 74 anyway. The one that would definitely get me to jump for another 74 is as I mentioned once, the USS Independence I'm not aware of any kits of the few US SOLs, and despite the lack of battle honors I still think it would sell well, everyone has seen 600 RN and French and Spanish SOLs.

 

Talk to the Naval Academy and get them to judge a competition of Independence builds two years after release with the winner being displayed in the Rogers collection for a year and you won't be able to keep them on the shelves. 

 

Then again as noted it's always easy to imagine such things working flawlessly when you're not buying thousands of dollars worth of materials yourself.