Help decide next project for Syren Ship Model Company

[Jim Rogers]

I am looking forward to dipping my toe into real POF with this cross section.

[Chuck]

The base kit will just contain the hull details.  But there is so much information available thanks to the work of David Antscherl and Greg Herbert.  It would be very easy to adapt this kit and add whatever details a builder chooses.  With the books available this becomes very easy.  In addition....if enough demand exists I would have no problems developing additional upgrade add-on mini kits.

 

Many of you have seen the 3D work Denis Rakaric is doing on the Pegasus.  I am very thankful for this and it will be yet another way for builders to d an exceptional job building this.  The added details will be of enormous value.  Here is one such image of the framed section I am working on.  The small spacers will be an optional detail but you can see how this project will be like no other cross section kit yet developed.  I am even working on a method to develop those shifted toptimbers you see.   Denis is doing fantastic work and I thank him for it.

 

This will be a long haul project for me and progress will be slow while I work on building the Winnie but I will do my best to keep you guys posted on the developments and progress.  Showing such images is proof that it is so beneficial to collaborate with others to make these projects even better than anyone could possibly do on their own.  Its a pleasure to work with these guys.

 

[MEDDO]

Mr Rakaric’s work is amazing.  Wonderful addition to this long term project.

[Kurt Johnson]

Hey Chuck,  Roughly, how big is the model going to be?

 

Kurt

[Chuck]

At 1/4" scale its not even 6" x 6" x 6"....just to give you a rough idea.   I dont have the exact measurements handy but fore to aft its about 5 1/2".  Its probably a little taller and a little wider.

[Kurt Johnson]

I just looked at Denis Rakaric’s work on two sites. It’s amazing! You can learn a lot just seeing it. I love the interior shot with the hammocks. 

 

Kurt

 

 

[Kurt Johnson]

That’s smaller than I imagined. Can’t wait.

 

But I guess I’ll have too.

 

Kurt

[Mike Y]

21 hours ago, Chuck said:

 It depends on how expensive the kit is at that time because I would like to keep the kit at around $200 -225 give or take.  Anything else would just limit the amount of folks willing to pay for it.  Especially as I need to compete with those cheap-o pirated versions of cross sections that folks are buying.  If I price this too high it just wont sell. except to a select few who can afford it.

What is your view on the approach used by Master Korabel - offer two versions of the kit, regular and "plus", with the "plus" version having a bit better quality of blocks and fittings, but being a bit more expensive? In your case - something in 250-275 range, but with a PE set included? 

So it does not involve having two sets of parts, the "plus" version is "regular version plus extra parts".

Edited January 30, 2018 by Mike Y

[Chuck]

Its nice if you have the staff to help you cut the stuff....right now the staff consists of me , myself and I.  I am not against it but I would rather do it on a one to one basis depending on time constraints when it comes to a different wood for example.  For instance I just cut and finished a barge kit for someone in Boxwood.  It was double the regular price.   But we worked it out independently.  To make those PE sets would mean that I would have to order 50 - 100 of them at a time.  I am not sure that there are 100 people willing to spend the "plus" price.

 

There are people who ask me.....can I have it in another wood......

 

There are people that ask for extra parts....

 

Two different scenarios and both with their own special sort of problems.  It really depends on how much they cost to make guys.  I havent got that far along with that yet.  So I cant say no at this point.

[Chuck]

Allow me to explain this a little more and not in terms of cost.  Cost is only one of many considerations.

 

Let us examine the proposal of having chain pumps that are open to show that wonderful mechanism everyone loves.  Forget the photoetch right now...let us put our kit designer hat on.  Its very easy to think about the visual details.....and then what it costs.  But let us consider also how to manufacture each piece....not the photoetch.  That is easy...just costly.

 

Let us talk about the obvious thing everyone has missed about the pumps.  Can anyone guess what it is?  From a manufacturing perspective as well as a builder of the kit?

 

OK who guessed correctly?  I am talking about the pump tubes.   Everyone has overlooked them in this discussion.  They are very long at 5" or so before being trimmed to fit.   In order to consider including the inner works, I must consider first how I would bore these thin wooden tubes which are octagon.  I know how I would do it if I was scratch building them.   It requires specialty bits and other tools.  But to mass produce six such hollow pump tubes (per kit) that are made from wood and hollowed out would be a nightmare.  How could one manufacture these?

 

In addition,  should I spend the money to create the photoetch inner mechanism parts and include them in each kit..... but not include these specially designed and bored octagonal pump tubes, how many people who bought the kit would have the tools and experience to create them from scratch.   Lets say I spend the money for the photoetch parts and offer it as an add-on.  How many people would be upset because they didnt really think it through, and later realize that they must create these tubes but cant for various reasons.  They would probably return the item unopened and I would have a lot of them which I cant get rid of.  

 

These are questions that go through the mind of a kit designer....for every single part in the kit.   I usually start a project considerring all of these details that everyone would want and desire (the wish list) and work my way "backwards"  to simplify certain parts based on how they can be mass produced or built by the average model builder.

 

In the case of the pumps.... I have yet to find a solution for making these hollowed out pump tubes quick enough to make it worth my time as a business concern  other than to just do it the way anyone else would, which is by hand one at a time.  Not gonna happen.   So the hang-up is NOT really the photoetch......its the pump tubes.

 

 

Sorry for the long explanation but I thought some of you might find it interesting....and be surprised that you and probably most of the others overlooked the obvious, unless of course you never had to consider making hundreds of hollowed out octagonal pump tubes from wood every few weeks.  

[Jim Rogers]

Why do they have to be hollow? The kit builder could hollow out a small section if so desired. Why couldn’t they be a hexagonal extruded plastic? My 2cents. Not pushing either way just suggesting.

[Chuck]

Jim

 

actually that is what I am leaning towards....not plastic. I may meet this "wish" half way.  I have some some ideas.  But will just keep them to myself while I work my way up to that point.  But yes...some may be dissapointed.  But hopefully most will be very pleased and excited about the compromise.

[S.Coleman]

I like the busy look of the Chebacco best. The lines of the hull appeal to me more. Not the biggest fan of stabilizers either.

[Mike Y]

Chuck, thanks for the interesting perspective!

Even if you split the pump into two pieces - it will still take a while to mill them (too many operations, multiplied by number of pumps).

The only ideas that come to mind are about tablesaw jigs, but hard to see how that will work on that tiny scale  Would be too inaccurate, not good enough for the Syren brand.

[Chuck]

I will figure something out.....I havent given up hope yet.

[Peter Bloemendaal]

Hi Chuck,

How close you think the technology is to just get a commercial 3d printer and just print these components and add them to the kits.

The printers are getting better all the time and are becoming more affordable.

It will add a lot more flexibility to your design efforts.

Cheers,

Peter

[amateur]

Without any deep thinking:

could a half tube be made like a profle, from square srock, usung a scraper?

 

Another thought: sometimes plain paper (the thicker version) can be a alternative for PE-parts. Printing card is not too expensive, and by letting the custeromer cut the parts from the paper, you don't have the laser cost and time (and the customer can go to the copyshop for spares  )Or are the parts needed too small/complex to make from paper?

 

Jan

Edited February 1, 2018 by amateur

[druxey]

Pump tubes could be made clamshell style: in two halves. One route would be a master mould and cast them. The other would be wood milled to section. The latter possibility is, of course, more time-consuming and costly.

[KenW]

I haven't tried it yet, but someone somewhere suggested hollowing out the lead from a pencil.  Sand off the paint and you have a long eight-sided tube.  I don't know how hard it would be to get the lead out, but ...

Just an idea.

Cheers.

[alde]

I'm all for trying to scratch build it if there are good drawings available. I know they are in the many books on 18th century ship construction. It's my understanding that your concept is for the cross section to be semi scratch built.

[Chuck Seiler]

19 hours ago, KenW said:

I haven't tried it yet, but someone somewhere suggested hollowing out the lead from a pencil.  Sand off the paint and you have a long eight-sided tube.  I don't know how hard it would be to get the lead out, but ...

Just an idea.

Cheers.

 

Pencils are 6 sided...at least the ones I get are.  That is what I used for my SULTANA windlass.  Getting the lead (graphite) out was quite a mess.

[Chuck Seiler]

    Part of the allure of scratch building is making the parts yourself.  If I wanted somebody to make all the parts for me I would go plastic.  I say let Chuck get the basic kit into production, then worry about the add ons later...otherwise it may take awhile (sez the guy still working on the Longboat after 4 years).

[mtaylor]

1 hour ago, Chuck Seiler said:

 

Pencils are 6 sided...at least the ones I get are.  That is what I used for my SULTANA windlass.  Getting the lead (graphite) out was quite a mess.

I have both hex and round pencils, Chuck. I think it depends on where you buy them.

[Chuck Seiler]

The round ones keep rolling off my desk.

[Chuck]

The Cross section will be an intermediate to advanced kit with some scratch building but not much....you will have to make the octagon from a square stock...its quite easy.  Like making the pumps on cheerful.   

 

Chuck

[knightyo]

On 1/23/2018 at 9:36 PM, Chuck said:

Send me everything you can find.  I wont know too much about scale yet until I get into drafting the plans.  But yes,  that is going to be the prototype and I plan on building it with an open roof like that to detail the cabin.

 

I need to change by vote over to the Dutch ship then.  The cabin detail did it for me. lol.    I have about 39 projects all half-done, but at the very least, I'd purchase the plans for this one.

 

Alan

[yvesvidal]

On 1/23/2018 at 9:42 AM, realworkingsailor said:

I can't wait to see how far this collaboration may go. I hope some day for a full ship, as opposed to just a cross section. 

 

Just buy a few kits of the cross-section and glue them together....et voila...a full ship!  

 

Yves

[flying_dutchman2]

Very few boeier kits were made, but there was one from the Authentic Shipmodels Amsterdam. I built it in the 80's. Still have the catalog. This company made a series of four flat bottom boats. 

Their description of a boeier is as follows. 

"With an authentic boeier there are no straight lines. Everything is round. Nowhere on the boat is a flat surface. Boeiers were luxury yachts of the 19th century and you still see them on the lakes in the Netherlands. 

The picture below is from the catalog, it is the one on the left. On the right is a botter (built that too) .  Marcus 

 

 

[amateur]

That boeier (as well as some other of their kits) were modellen based on drawings from this book:

VERSTEEG,W.K. - Scheepsmodellen 1700 - 1900.

 

Rather basic, solid hull models. (unfortunatedly, the milling of the hulls was not always very precise).

I did this Boeier, the Tjalk, the Veerschip and the Botter. Still catching dust in my cupboard, but I still like the looks and size of these models. Rather sturdy  and compact models: they survived all my moves.

 

Jan

[flying_dutchman2]

12 hours ago, amateur said:

That boeier (as well as some other of their kits) were modellen based on drawings from this book:

VERSTEEG,W.K. - Scheepsmodellen 1700 - 1900.

 

I did this Boeier, the Tjalk, the Veerschip and the Botter. Still catching dust in my cupboard, but I still like the looks and size of these models. Rather sturdy  and compact models: they survived all my moves.

 

Jan

I need to get that boek from Versteeg. Is it still in print?

I built all four of them and Friese tjalk anno 1900. Wanted to get that King Size 32 pounder Cannon at the scale of 1:12 length was 40 cm but it was beyond my price range. My ships moved from Holland to Africa to the US back to Holland and in storage. Salvage the sails and using the tjalk's main sail for my Utrecht's topsail. 

Marcus