To add sails or not? What is your preference?

[Bill97]

I have built several ships in the 1/96-1/100 scale. I always debate before I start if I will or will not rig the ships with or without sails. As you know most times you have to decide this early for placement of the yards and angle of the masts. I always feel that after spending countless hours on rigging I don’t want to hide it with the sails. However a ship in full sail is impressive. I am getting ready to start the second 1/96 Cutty Sark that I have built in my 68 years and then plan to spend the rest of my days working on the Heller HMS Victory. I have read a number of posts and watched YouTube videos on making furrowed sails but have not tried it. In general, what is the majority opinion on adding the sails on ship models of this scale?

[RussR]

In my opinion a sailing ship without sails is a raft. A sailing ship sould have sails (furled or unfurled). The model to me looks unfinished without sails. All of your rigging will be viewable from different angles anyway.

If I am going take years to finish why stop at the sails?

[CGN39BCO]

I'm currently working a topsail schooner in 1/96 (many fewer sails) and have found including the (unfurled) sails adds significantly to the modeling time (reef points make ratlines look REALLY INTERESTING by comparison).  Using furled sails would allow omission of some the sail detail buried in the furl and save some of that time if you've got both Cutty Sark and Victory in the queue.

 

I've used both cloth (men's handkerchiefs) and Silkspan Lite in 1/96 and have gotten better results from Silkspan Lite - the thickness is much closer to scale.  Tom Lauria has a helpful video on YouTube for modeling sails with Silkspan, and David Antscherl describes his method in "The Fully Framed Model, Rigging a Sixth Rate Sloop of 1767-1780, Volume 4.  If you want to use cloth and are going to furl, I do recommend cutting the height of the sails down by at least 1/3 to avoid excessive bulk on the yards, which advice goes back at least as far as Harold Underhill.

 

All that said, eight of my 11 sailing ship models have included sails, so apparently I'm in favor.

 

Bill

[ccoyle]

I like them both ways. Many sails on models aren't anywhere close to being in scale, and pre-sewn sails are the worst offenders in this regard, usually having a coarse weave and way, way too obvious stitching. Even so, they can still look good on a model in spite of these scale inconsistencies. The best way to think about this is to look at photos of real sailing ships: panel lines are barely perceptible, and stitching can't be seen at all. Using sail cloth with a high thread count and then gluing instead of sewing bolt ropes, IMO, is a great improvement, and properly furled silkspan (which I haven't tried myself) can likewise add a significant touch of realism to a model. But to each their own!

[Justin P.]

They only seem to look right when done really, really well.   That is to say, all the details and in appropriate scale.   Ive seen so many great models that would look far superior is someone would free them from all the old laundry. 

 

[allanyed]

If you are going to consider making sails I suggest you get Volume IV of The Fully Framed Model by David Antscherl.  While the model in the book is at 1:48 scale, it will still have some very good pieces of information for you.   That said, at the scale you are talking about, I totally agree with Chris.  My opinion is that sails that are going to be out of scale will ruin the model and it will be difficult at best to make sails that are to scale at 1:96.   If you look at photos of contemporary models at NMM, Preble Hall, and others museums, there are a lot of fully rigged models, but few if any with sails.  These models were built by the best of the best but they did not add sails and do not look anything like a raft.  (See an example below)    Why they didn't add sails I have no idea, but it may be that they agreed with statements above about scale and hiding rigging.

 

I have used high thread count (1000 or 1200 TPI) bedding material for sails on a few 1:48 scale schooner models, but only because the buyers required that the model had sails.  The rigging on the schooners was sparse compared to a ship like the Cutty Sark, so the sails looked good in the end and did not really hide the rigging too much.  Keep in mind these are not cheap materials.   Silk Span is probably a better way to go than cloth so as to keep it closer to scale.     Allan

 

 

[rwiederrich]

To the OP....personally, I prefer sails on models..even if they are only furled.   In reality, vessels generally only removed their sails when in port of extended periods or in service dock, to eliminate clutter and to do maintenance on the sails themselves.   If you are considering the Cutty Sark...remember....the expansive sail pattern was one of the aspects that made a clipper a fast vessel....it was one thing that made her unique from other ship designs.  Clippers carried lots of sails for their hull size.  So in my view the sails are just as much a part of the overall representation of the vessel type, as is the hull...or all her rigging.

My recently completed Great Republic sported 22 sails...and I left off many stay and all the stunsails.

Here is an image of how convincing PAPER sails can be on a 1/128 scale model.  One with light so you can see the translucency of paper.

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

And currently I am adding set and furled sails to my Clipper, Glory of the Seas.  Paper is IMV convincing at this scale as well....1/96.

Here are several images.

[RussR]

9 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

And currently I am adding set and furled sails to my Clipper, Glory of the Seas.  Paper is IMV convincing at this scale as well....1/96.

Here are several images.

You sir are a master at your craft. I can only aspire to your level of artistic abilities.

Model sail making is an art in its self. 

If anyone is interested here is a youtube demonstration on silkspan sail making.

 

[flyer]

I do agree with RussR. A sailing ship must have sails.

 

My 3rd model was the first with (furled) sails. As I didn't know better I used pre-sawn sails and learned a lot. The main points are already mentioned in other posts here: Never use them and when sails are furled reduce the height by 1/3.

 

The next try -Granado- was with furled sails made on order by a professional seamstress. I just sawed the boltropes on. As pointed out here the seams are much to coarse and also the boltropes still seemed too prominent.

 

Then I made the sails myself, just pencilled the seams onto the fabric and glued the boltropes into the seams. Furled they looked good enough for me to try full sails on the next two models - both schooners.

 

Now I'm coming to the point:

There is a further possibility - you have partly set sails. For example leave the topgallant sails furled, set topsails as in medium wind and perhaps have the mainsail furled as well. Just choose a scenario, such as e.g. ready for battle in moderate wind, and set the sails accordingly.

A benefit of full or partly set sails is the fact that you can brace the yards as sharp as you like and the rigging allows which gives a more dynamic look and reduces the space needed for the finished model (by about 15% for yards braced 30°).

 

I'm building a 74 now and will add sails, do however not know yet how exactly. They will most probably be partly set because I want to brace the yards.

 

 

 

 

[rwiederrich]

27 minutes ago, RussR said:

You sir are a master at your craft. I can only aspire to your level of artistic abilities.

Model sail making is an art in its self. 

If anyone is interested here is a youtube demonstration on silkspan sail making.

 

 

One thing to note.....when adding sails...to establish  viable realism...they must have billow and must have form to impress the notion they are active.  Billowed sails are active sails....  IMV, is left limp they give the vessel the appearance of *Drying sails* or as in a calm.  

 

Note in the image the drying of sails and how they are lifeless...sheets pulled up.

 

Rob

[Baker]

A sailing ship without sails
Is like a pub without beer 

[vaddoc]

I prefer the model to have sails but they are difficult to make them look good. If they are furled it does not seem to matter if they are roughly made and seem to add a lot to the model. Also, indeed the sails do hide the details.

However, the main reason I prefer sails is that I try to build the boats as close to real as possible and to replicate the rigging as closely as possible. Adding sails seems to increase the complexity of the build with more lines and blocks and cleats and pins etc needed.

 

Rob, your models look fantastic!

 

 

[Jaager]

2 hours ago, allanyed said:

I have used high thread count (1000 or 1200 TPI) bedding material for sails on a few 1:48 scale schooner models

Allan,

Another member brought this up some time ago, apparently the advertised thread count in fabric is not all that straight forward in what it is describing.  I find it confusing, but it may be that 500 or so may be the max available - for what we want it to mean.  If I read it correctly a 1000 count is actually 500 threads, with each thread being two yarns twisted up.  It is probably thicker.  The variety of cotton used - some have longer fibers - and how much fractionation and purification of just the long fibers before twisting up may enter in to it.

[rwiederrich]

5 hours ago, RussR said:

Model sail making is an art in its self. 

 

Yes indeed they can be.  You have to include panel lines and belly/reef and top banding...not to mention the reef points and clue and cringle rings.

 

Paper lets me build my sails with plain white glue and then I can roll and billow them using a cake makers fondant ball roller tool.  Pressed and rolled against a thin foam backing, This allows me to get the edges to *roll* making the sail *fill*.  Then they can be painted with what ever shade of tan you choose(Lightly...you don't want to totally cover up the inked in panel lines).  Next the bunt and leech lines can be added, along with the reef points.

 

A finished out sail can in of itself, be a small model all by itself if ample details are desired.

 

And once the paper is painted it holds its shape, especially if it's clued to the lower yard.

 

Thanks for the fine compliments.

 

Rob

[RussR]

5 hours ago, vaddoc said:

I prefer the model to have sails but they are difficult to make them look good.

Yes, good sails are difficult to make but that is what makes your model stand out among the rest. Instead of speeding though a build I try to get better even with my limited experiance and limited resources.  I admire Rob and flyer efforts, that doesn't come easy. I may get there if I don't "kick off" first.

[rwiederrich]

7 hours ago, vaddoc said:

I prefer the model to have sails but they are difficult to make them look good.

I felt that way too....but I developed a method using paper that is so easy....it almost makes me feel I have *one-up* on everyone else.

Silk Span is a good medium, however it tends to be too translucent.  Almost transparent.  Just not what I was looking for.  Paper still resembles the natural translucency of cotton canvas, and is so forgiving.  Plus a bit of white glue and a sharp knife and ruler...and anyone can be a sail maker.

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

Remember, as stated before..the devils in the details and concerning reef points.  Most try to use thread..punching it through the sail...but thread in many amaller scales is waaay out of scale...plus thread *NEVER* wants to naturally hang across the billowing sail.  Am I right?

 

I developed a trick that works in a flash.  Just take a tan colored nylon bristle brush and cut the desired length of pieces that can be used as the  reef point.  Careful.....these guys can be invisible.  Take them and dip their cut and into a puddle of white glue and then press it against the reef band at the appropriate distance.   These nylon bristles look very convincing and they are uniform.

 

Here are a couple of pics to show.

 

[WalrusGuy]

What paper do you use for the sails? Saw you mentioned IMV but I am not sure what that is. Google results show printer paper. Is that what you prefer to use? 

[rwiederrich]

Even the jib sails are fully detailed with their hanks, haulyard and downhaul.

 

Same principle....paper, glue and little manipulation.

 

Rob

[Bill97]

Rob I am intrigued by your design of making the sails with paper, glue, etc. Would you care to share your process?  Any chance you may have made a YouTube video showing how to do it?  That is if you don’t mind sharing your secret.

[rwiederrich]

13 hours ago, Bill97 said:

Rob I am intrigued by your design of making the sails with paper, glue, etc. Would you care to share your process?  Any chance you may have made a YouTube video showing how to do it?  That is if you don’t mind sharing your secret.

 

No secret really...and no problem sharing.  I did describe this method in my Great Republic Build log...but for expeditious purposes, I'll describe the process here.

 

First, you'll need to know the scale of your sails.....this means you'll need to know the size of the panels...generally they are 12~24" in width.  Then take your plain white copy paper...8"X11" general thickness.

Next you draw all your panel lines in scale on the paper...to include both sides.  Making sure your lines are as close to being over the top of each other as possible.  Once you have the *Master*

Go to your copier and make loads of double sided copies.

Now you have the foundation of your sail material.

Then all you have to do is cut out your desired sail from each of the copies.  This may mean you have to align the panel lines correctly for stay sails and jibs.  Main course and topsails will require the panel lines to run vertical.

 

Once the sail is cleanly cut...I use a sharp scalpel and metal rule...you need to then cut strips for all the banding and edging you will need from a plain sheet of paper.  Keep these also to scale...12~24".

Now you break out the white glue and glue on your top band....belly and reef bands.  I just spread the glue so lightly on the band..turn it over and hold it where it needs to be and press it against the sail.

You'll Leave enough on both edges outside the sail, hanging off....you'll cut these extra pieces off later.  Next you take some bands and glue and press them along the side edges. Again leaving some material over the edges.

 

One thing I failed to mention..prior to adding the banding you will have cut the bottom of the sail in its *curved* fashion....from sheet point to sheet point.  I have a good eye...so I simply draw the curve from middle to edge(sheet point* on both sides.

 

You will NOT be adding a foot band.

Remember at the scales we are talking about, 1/96~1/128, we don't need these details.  The main sail anatomy of panel lines and banding will suffice.  Once you add the bunt lines and any other sail control lines your period requires...your sails will look amazing.

 

Now, back to the sails....once the glue is dried, and it doesn't take long.  Take a sharp scissor and precisely cut off the extra banding along the sail edges.   Now you have the clean basic sail to begin working.

Sails need control points or clue and cringle points.  What I did was make extremely small wire eye bolts(Electric motor winding wire) and glued them on these places...and then cut patchwork points that I glued over the top of the shanks of the eyebolts....making sure to press then down snugly against the sail..pressing out any excess glue.  The patchwork is simply cut from the strips, previously used for the banding and cut to fit the angles of the clue corner of the sail .

 

 

I make clipper sails.....so I don't use rope along the edge of the sail.  At my scales it would be an unnecessary detail.

 

Next, I first use a dowel to begin the sail curving..by rolling the dowel along the sail in your hand....like rolling a cigarette.  Now this may take some practice...rolling the sail against the dowel between your fingertips.  Once a curve has been created, you want to *billow* the sail.  All I can say is go get a fondant/gumpaste metal ball rolling tool.  They are used to roll the edges of fondant flower pedals.  When this tool is used with its thin foam pad....you can roll along the bottom edge of the sail and literally create a *billow* effect in the paper.  So your sail doesn't simply have the curve to it, but an actual exaggerated billowed edge.  this technique can be somewhat technique sensitive..so don't overdue it and ruin your sail.  I practiced a bit on a plain piece of paper first.

 

Once you have the general curves and billows in your sail...you'll want to paint the sail...in what ever color you think best suits the era of sail you are creating.  A nice muslin tan works.  Now, apply the paint in even thin coats.  You want the panel lines to be muted and opaque...covered, but not so, much that they are completely painted over.  Paint both sides and let dry.  I place them under a hot lightbulb and they dry in no time.

 

Once dry, you can add your buntlines.  Mark out the distance and location lightly with a pencil and run your line through a pool of white glue,,,removing excess and then stretch the line across the sail from top to bottom in the desired location..press it against the sail.  when dry, you cut off the excess at the lower edge of the sail.  You can if desired bring the buntline all the way around the bottom of the sail and up the inside if that amount of detail is desired.

 

Now attaching the sail to the yard may cause some purists to try another method, but for me(And I'm a simple man), I lay a bead of glue(this time I use good wood glue) on the inner edge of the sail....the point of contact to the yard and I glue the sail to the yard.  I use alligator clips to aid me in this.  You want the sail to be on the top/front of the yard...facing out almost...because you want the sail to appear to be pulling away from the yard NOT just hanging down from the yard.  This technique works best (from my experience) when you are working off the model...

 

When dry....finish laying your buntlines and rig the sail...…..

 

In a nutshell...this is my technique.  Does it take some work, and finesse......YEP...but what doesn't?

 

Good luck

 

Rob

 

 

[Bill97]

Oh my gosh Rob I hope you didn’t have to type all that out just now on your device. Maybe had it already in print that you copied and pasted!  Thank you so much. I am going to print that out and practice. When you say first have the size of each sale I am guessing it would be OK to simply match the size of all the ones on the preformed plastic sheets that come with a the kit?

[toms10]

I am a sails guy.  Whether furled or full they are part of the ship and add to the character of the time periods.  As previously stated by many, usually cloth sails are a bit out of scale if you are working around 1:87 or smaller.  They can be very tedious but can definitely add to the "wow" factor.  Just my humble opinion.

 

Tom

[Bill97]

With all this discussion I am now wondering if I should go back and add sails to the Constitution I just finished. I have the masts and yards positioned as if not with sails. I guess I could attempt to make some as if furrowed. I still have the plastic formed ones from the kit I could use for size. 

[rwiederrich]

4 hours ago, Bill97 said:

Oh my gosh Rob I hope you didn’t have to type all that out just now on your device. Maybe had it already in print that you copied and pasted!  Thank you so much. I am going to print that out and practice. When you say first have the size of each sale I am guessing it would be OK to simply match the size of all the ones on the preformed plastic sheets that come with a the kit?

 

Typing it out was nothing....really, I was not on a mobile devise..  Take measurements from yard to yard if you can.  Measuring the existing plastic sail will work too, but you must remember, if you measure the exact height, when you curve the sail it will become to short and your sheets will be long and the sail will not be fully bent to the lower yard.    When I was experimenting with the sail length I found if I added a mm or so of extra length to the sail, that when I rolled and *billowed* the sail it fit perfectly.  Paper sails do not stretch like real cotton canvas sails do.   Make a few trial runs to see if you have the correct billow you are seeking.  I'm sure your idea will work.  Just practice it.

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

1 hour ago, Bill97 said:

With all this discussion I am now wondering if I should go back and add sails to the Constitution I just finished. I have the masts and yards positioned as if not with sails. I guess I could attempt to make some as if furrowed. I still have the plastic formed ones from the kit I could use for size. 

 

Beautiful model by the way....nice, clean execution.  Now if you are thinking of using the preformed Furled sails from the kit...DON'T!  They are poor representations of furled sails.

2 things to consider:  If you are attempting to use paper as furled sails, you need to treat the paper first..before you ever attempt to use it as a furled sail...and what does that mean?

You have to crumple the paper so much that it becomes almost soft and pliable... then it can be successfully used.

Next, in your case make mimic yards from dowel material so that you can make and bend your sails to them..working the furled sail against the dowel..forming it.  Once you have fashioned the sail to your satisfaction...remove it from the mimic dowel yard and glue it to your model yard.   Same with billowing sails.  Make a mock-up of the lower and upper yards on a mast and form the sail to them, making all your adjustments and fiddling.  When done, it only takes its removal from the *Jig* and it's placement and gluing to the model.  See?  You never have to try to bend your sail initially to the finished model, possibly ruining all your previous rigging work.

 

Rob

[Bob Cleek]

24 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

If you are attempting to use paper as furled sails, you need to treat the paper first..before you ever attempt to use it as a furled sail...and what does that mean?

You have to crumple the paper so much that it becomes almost soft and pliable... then it can be successfully used.

Or there's  the old counterfeiter's trick: Tumble the damp paper in the dryer with a fabric softener sheet. (Or so I'm told. ... "Hey, can you break a hundred for me?")

[Bill97]

Don’t tell anyone but I believe I have been misspelling furled. Hey what can I say. I use my brain for model building not spelling! 😀

[RichardG]

Rob,

 

Your sails are excellent. Seeing these almost makes me to add them to my cutter😀. However in my stage of the journey, what with my glacial pace and total lack of rigging experience, I think it's too much (I really do want do finish before I die). 

 

I have a Model Shipways Long Boat kit in my stash - that would be a good place to start. 

 

Thanks for your work and instructions.

Richard.