Group Prototype HMS Winchelsea - FINISHED - 1764 - by Chuck (1/4" scale)

[Chuck]

Thats gonna be a while.  I want to concentrate on getting Chapter 5 out first.   Chapter 5 will be a shorter chapter so it shouldnt be too bad...

 

Next, It will include finishing the port lids,  adding the bulwark details,  the cheeks at the bow, the stairs,  possibly getting all the deck beams made and temporarily positioned.   Then of course all the cannon on the gundeck.  

 

I remember what was involved when I made the guns for Cheerful......There are so many more on the Winnie (24 on the gundeck).   Thats gonna take a while.   There will be so many carriages to build, LOL.    So I will prob offer them as a stand alone so as to not hold up getting Chapter 5 parts ready for delivery.  Having flashbacks to when I did them on Cheerful.

 

 

 

Chuck

[scrubbyj427]

Those guns look outstanding! I can’t wait to add some deck details. Can’t wait to see this become available!

[Beckmann]

Hi Chuck, will the port lids be equipped with ropes to keep them open?

 

[Chuck]

You can do that of course but they will stay open without them.  Another interesting discussion is the fact that many or even most contemporary models that are not fully rigged,  are completely without any rigging at all.  Not a single rope of any kind on any of them.  Most dont even show the cannon not to mention that the guns are rarely rigged.  But in present times, builders have a kitchen sink approach which is fine and I fully expect most to show fully rigged cannon...ships wheel...and even port lids.  
 

Having said that,  I will not be showing the lids rigged.  Its too much for my tastes.  I am still on the fence with regard to rigging the cannon etc.  I will post a few pictures that will show contemporary practice.  Its also good to leave some small details up to each builder so they can make their own models more unique...so builders choice!

 

But I am still on the fence if I want to follow the common contemporary practice......to me it just looks so nice and less cluttered.  Although I will at least fully rig one cannon to show folks how its done and then if I decide otherwise....remove it all.   I know it seems crazy.  But as many of you are aware, for me....my Winnie model will be my best attempt to build a POB version "or homage" to the most beautiful Contemporary hull models.    With the end goal being if set side by side any of them my model might hold up beside some of them shown below.   

 

The first examples are of Winnie.

 

[Chuck]

You do have to look extra hard for contemporary hull models that show guns.  But they are out there.  Here is my favorite.  Its Amazon....not one instance of rope on this model.   Again this isnt meant to discourage any of you guys from adding those details but I do want to explain why I am doing what I am with my model.   Its really my best attempt at a homage to the old time builders.  It was a widely accepted practice to not show a lick of rope unless the model was fully masted and rigged.  Not even on the bumpkins shown at the bow or hammock cranes or ship's wheel.

 

[JeffT]

It still looks great without the rigging.

[dvm27]

Since we now know that the majority of these models were not made for design demonstration purposes but as gifts for Admiralty Board members or others of influence one could posit that this is the way these patrons preferred their models - clean and simple. Fully rigged models would have posed the same problem they do today - where to find sufficient display space. If the receivers of these beautiful models wanted cannons, cannon rigging or other intricate details you can be sure the builders would have included them. The curious thing is that they included hidden details within the hull that the patron would never see. Chuck's lovely model pays homage to those original models.

Edited December 14, 2020 by dvm27

[scrubbyj427]

Chuck, why only the 5 gunport doors per side on Winnie? Is this because of the contemporary model or would the real Winnie only of had 5/side?

JJ

[Chuck]

Thats the way they did it on these frigates.  In reality they only had a few on the gun deck. Never did they have port lids along the waist on the weather decks or for all the ports.  What would be the point.  Just a few of them aft and one or two at the bow.   Although there are rare exceptions.  Just look at all of those photos of the contemporary models I posted....include those for other frigates and larger rates in our gallery.   

 

The gun deck always had the port lids omitted mid ship.  Although some larger ships had a few more than just four aft because they were longer.   For 32's they mostly had about four lids aft and just the one or maybe two forward including the bridal port .   With all of the others left open.  For Winnie specifically.....its just the five.

 

Here is yet another prime example.  In this case two ports up front.....and three aft.  A slightly older example in the 1750's.  But a shorter smaller 32.

 

 

Chuck

[Chuck]

Oh almost forgot to mention......once you start making those port lid hinges you will be grateful there werent lids for every port!!!  😀

[Kusawa2000]

4 hours ago, Chuck said:

Oh almost forgot to mention......once you start making those port lid hinges you will be grateful there werent lids for every port!!!  😀

At least its not as bad as rigging ratlines.. needless to say Im not upset that the Winnie project is not fully rigged. 

 

MIKE

[Ron Burns]

Chuck, will we be seeing little Alaskan cedar ship's boats gracing the decks in the future? It would be so nice to see an offering other than the ones that are out there.

[scrubbyj427]

Very interesting, guess I never payed that much attention but makes sense, I’ve always looked at the lower decks on larger vessels and all their ports and assumed the same for the smaller ones.

 

what do you know about lighting on a frigate like Winnie? I’m thinking about lighting up the covered parts of the gun deck rather than lights in the case but I want to install it period correct. Any ideas of how it would have been lit and how the fixtures would look?

 

JJ

 

 

[Chuck]

No lights except for small lanterns.   But I honestly dont know much about it.

 

 

see this topic about the ships barge

 

 

[scrubbyj427]

22 minutes ago, Chuck said:

No lights except for small lanterns.   But I honestly dont know much about it.

 

 

see this topic about the ships barge

 

 

I Guess I need another excuse to watch master and commander, take some notes on lighting.

[Chuck]

No solder-easy-brass working gun port hinges.....

 

So I like to get the port lids done early before I put the cannons in.  The main reason is that I build the lids within their respective openings.  This would be impossible after the cannon are in place.  This is something you guys can do at anytime and you dont have to wait for chapter 5.  You guys probably have all the materials to get these lids done.

 

So first the lids...

 

I think someone may have asked this question a while ago.  But you know how you see a port lid on a contemporary model and it isnt just a flat square but actually is conformed to the shape of the hull.  A port lid can be curved which is something you rarely see on a kit model.  Fortunately for us the lids arent that extremely shaped.  But the one at the bow will need to have each layer or strake of the lid pre-bent just like the hull planking.

 

To explain....you must keep the run of the hull planking in each port lid.  Thus it is best to use 1/4" x 3/64" strips to build the lid up.  In the photo below you can see how I cut the first two strakes and trimmed them so they fit tight in the port opening.  Then I glue them together edgewise right in the port opening.  I do simulate the seam between each segment with a pencil just like we did when planking.  The last piece for this lid is sitting on top of the sheer rail.

With the lid glued up I remove it and sand the outside and inside surface smooth.  Dont do this while its in position because you will screw up the finish on the hull planking.  It will be hard to get the finish to match in the area you recently sanded.  Then there is the matter of the second inboard layer or the lid lining.   This is done with strips too....or you could just cut one piece that fits.  In the case of the lining it is 1/32" thick.  Its cut to shape so a rabbet is left on the bottom and the sides.   To finish it up paint the inboard side red along with the edges of the port lid.

 

Then put it back in position on the model....make sure it still fits nice.  Apply a finish of wipe on poly to the outboard side.  In some cases the frieze will need to be added as well.  Just like hanging wallpaper, you must match the pattern.

Making the port lid hinges...

 

There are many advantages to making brass hinges from scratch.  Mostly because the photoetch ones available are either shaped funny or two wide.  They just never look right to my eye.  So here is how I make them.  You will need a brass strip 1/16" wide and 1/64" thick.  K&S used to sell these.   These wont be supplied by me so this is something you have to get.  You can cut strips from a brass sheet if needed as well.  Looking at the photo from top to bottom....some finished hinges on top

Then step one....on the top of the lineup...

 

The first thing I do is drill a hole through the end of the brass strip.  Use a #74 drill bit.   Then I round off the end around that hole which will become the bottom of the hinge.

 

Step 2...Using a flat file, I file a tapered angle into the strap just above the drilled hole.   You dont have to file too deep.  Just enough to make a gradual taper in the hinge.  Then I round off the end so it looks like a small circle on the bottom of the hinge around the hole.  This step is also optional.  You can go with a straight hinge that just has the bottom rounded.  Its up to you.  But I think these look nicer.

 

Step 3...Measure the length of the hinge by using the plans.   Mark this on the brass strip.  Now its time to file a little tail into the top end of the hinge.  This is easy enough.  Using a flat needle file just file half of the width of the brass strip away.  This resulting tail should be about 5/32" long.

 

Step 4...Use a needle nose to roll up the tail to make a loop.  Just like you do when you are making an eye bolt.  Make the resulting hole in this pretty small so a 24 gauge wire can snugly fit into it....more on that later.  But here is the real trick to this.  Before you bend that tail into a loop, file the tail down even thinner.  Just the tail.  This makes it easier to get a nice small loop on the top of the hinge.  It also keeps the finished hinge from looking to too bulky and chunky.  Hope that makes sense.  Thats it......repeat to make 20 hinges.   But remember to make left and right pairs.   Each lid gets a left and a right as you will see in the photos.  It just means make the loop in the tail in the other direction on the top of the hinge.  Blacken all of the hinges when you are done.

Now in the photo above...with the port lid in position, You can glue the hinges to the lid.   Try and keep them even.  Try and keep them the same height etc.

 

Then remove the lid as shown below.  This is where you will drill a hole into the lid through the hole you made in each hinge.  I had made the very tiny eyebolts with 28 gauge black wire.  On these I added split rings that I made from 24 gauge black wire.  I made the split rings by wrapping the wire around the shank of a #50 drill bit.  Then I sawed them down the shank to part off nice split rings all to a very uniform size.   These split rings were carefully inserted into the tiny eyebolts I made and were ready to glue into the holes in the bottom ends of the hinges.  I was careful not to drill through the lid or push the tail of the eyebolts through the lids.  I didnt want them breaking through to the inboard side.

 

Lastly....create some tiny "L" shapes from 24 gauge wire which will be used to secure the lids in position.   But before you place them into the hinge straps.....place the lid back in the port opening so you can drill the holes where those little "L's" will go.   Drill the holes close to the hinge straps.  Note the left and right hinge straps on the lid.   This is done so the little "L's" are both on the inside.  Then you lid will never fall off after you glue it on the hull.

Here is a photo of the lids done on the starboard side.   I will keep them closed until I am ready to add the cannon to avoid damaging them.  Now to repeat this on the other side.  Any questions....I dont think I forgot anything.  That was a lot to write in one post!!!

[Ron Burns]

Bon appetite Chuck! 

[scrubbyj427]

Will the moulding continue Through the port lid?

[Chuck]

Nope....that is the way it was always done.  From Minerva in the Rogers Collection.   Pretty close match to my attempt at contemporary practice.

 

[scrubbyj427]

Let’s do Minerva next Chuck. I’ve seen that model a couple times too, in fact I’ve seen the whole collection many times and it’s amazing how many details I did not pay attention to until I started building Winnie.

[Chuck]

You want to make another one!!!!   🤣  LOL

 

Truth be told....I almost chose Minerva instead.   But Winnie won out because of the wealth of primary source info.

 

By the way....the Minerva is also another 5th rate with just 3 lids aft and just one up at the bow.  Look closely at that forward lid.....note how the lid curves like the bow.   You need to pre-bend those little pieces before you make the lid.  Although not that much as I suspect that lid is curved even more due to age and warp.

 

[scrubbyj427]

Haha starting another one ASAP! My sanity depends on it. Maybe I’ll order a laser cutter and really get dangerous.

[Matt D]

47 minutes ago, Chuck said:

 

 

 

@scrubbyj427 .Just look at this headpiece - she says “Build me, JJ.  Build me”

Edited December 21, 2020 by Matt D

[Hubac's Historian]

Hi Chuck - great lid-making tutorial!

 

Forgive me if you have covered this elsewhere, but I have a question about making split rings.  How, exactly, do you saw down the shank of a #50 drill bit?  What are the specific tools you use?

 

I have tried, with zero success, to part them with a razor sharp, single-edge carpet blade.

 

If you don’t mind sharing, what’s the trick?

 

I have to say, the lines of these fifth-rates are so sweet!

Edited December 21, 2020 by Hubac's Historian

[Chuck]

I will put together some pics....

[Rustyj]

Great job on the lids. I can't wait to try making them tonight!

[scrubbyj427]

16 hours ago, Matt D said:

@scrubbyj427 .Just look at this headpiece - she says “Build me, JJ.  Build me”

That’s all I hear when I look at it...and most of the models in the Rogers collection for that matter.

[JpR62]

Always a pleasure to follow these updates.
I really like the fact of being inspired and proposing to follow the method of construction of contemporary models.

[Jorge Diaz O]

11 hours ago, Chuck said:

Haré algunas fotos ...

Great job mr. Chuck, but don't they wear nails or some way to imitate them?

[Chuck]

Here is how I make split rings.   Pretty straight forward.  I use one of the Japanese saws with the thin blades to cut.  You can see how I broke the blade on the other side.  But it still works and is sharp.   I have more blades if needed.  I do sometimes places the drill bit into a vice to hold it all steady.  It makes cutting this a lot easier.  But if I am only making a dozen at a time like this I can twist the wire ends like shown and just be careful while cutting through.   The trick is not to rush.....it takes as much time as it takes to cut through it.  Once you have a cut started thats deep it gets easier as you can see the blade stays in the cut when I placed it on the table for this photo.

 

 

Chuck