Group Prototype HMS Winchelsea - FINISHED - 1764 - by Chuck (1/4" scale)

[OldChur]

Hey Chuck,

    Is your store still open?  How do i get to it?  The last time i visited it, it said something about being closed.  I need to order the wood for chapters 4 and 5.

 

Cheers,

 Frank Barnhill

[Chuck]

Yes....its been open for a while.  See the banner on the right side of the forum for syren.  

[Chuck]

More on this in a little bit....

 

Hawse holes on actual  ship.....curved hawse pipes

 

But we cant drill on a curve so we have drill the hawse holes straight through.....parallel to the keel but at an upward angle like shown below.   The slight upward angle as drilled from the outside is crucial.   Otherwise......you guessed it....you will drill straight into the waterway and maybe even into the deck inboard.   So real important......drill at a slight upward angle to try shoot for the hawse holes inboard being centered on the spirketting.  Also note the large knee right above the spirketting.

 

[Stuntflyer]

Tricky!

[Chuck]

Its a little tricky but the reason why I wanted to mention it is because its a detail often overlooked.   In fact I am sad to say that I indeed also forgot to adjust my angle upward when drilling that first hawse hole.  Now it wasnt a catastrophe by any means....but it does make me feel stupid.  Of all people to forget to adjust the angle even after I went through the trouble of showing it on the plans....

 

Anyway, this just means that my hawse holes are about 3/64" too low inboard as I drilled straight and level.  So this should serve as a reminder to in fact remember to do this.   

 

So to drill the hawse holes, I used a much smaller drill bit than the size of the hawse holes.   You can clearly see how large you need to make them after you finish the cheeks.   Just try to make them parallel to the keel.  Then use a small needle file to open them up larger to the finished size neatly.   

 

I touched up the edges inboard and out.  Then I used graphite from a sharpened pencil to color the inside of the hawse pipe.  Some people like to rill up paper but if you do a clean job drilling and filing then a pencil works nicely.   Here is a view outboard.....note that the bolster was not glued on when drilling but as soon as the holes were finished up I glued them on permanently.   I also used the graphite on the holes of the bolster.   Some like to use paint instead of a pencil....they paint the inside of the hawse holes a dark gray.   But I stick with a pencil.

 

 

On the inboard side, I touched up the red pain and colored the hawse pipes with graphite as well.  Then I sanded the large knee that you see above them to remove the laser char.   This knee is laser cut in two halves (port and starboard) as it makes getting the shape easier.   You can more easily get this large knee to fit snug against the bulwarks with it in two pieces.   The outside edges were beveled slightly as I didnt want the knee to have sharp edges.   Then one side was glued in position atop the spircketting.   Then the other side getting a nice tight joint between the two halves.   Finally it was also painted red.   Note:   Yes you can show the bolts on this knee inboardif you want to.   But once again, as some of you might call me a minimalist with regard to this model,  I have decided not to show them.  You can use some 20lb black line to use as your bolts if you like that look.

 

You can see the hawse holes just above the waterway.....they are about 3/64" too low.  They should be higher and almost centered on the spirketting.   I can live with it though as after drilling the first one I had to follow by doing the same to the remaining three.   Once the f'castle deck is on you will never be able to even see the hawse holes under that knee.

 

So all of you .....remember to drill with a slight angle upward so as to have your hawse holes not so low on the waterway inboard.

 

As an addendum....on the actual ship the area inboard around the hawse holes was much more complex with upright timbers and rollers, etc.   But this is as far as we will take it unless you want to bash it.   This area as I mentioned will be impossible to see so its not worth adding all that stuff and was rarely , if ever shown on a contemporary model.  For all of those details should you want to include them....have a look at the Fully Framed series for the Swan Class sloops.  All of those bells and whistles are described there.

 

You can actually see one of the rollers on the original draft for Pearl a sister ship....which is very unusual for a draft detail.  At least that is what I think that is because its something you dont see on most inboard details on these drafts.  Note the knee shown on that draft as well......the top of the roller is inserted into it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[KentM]

Absolute perfection.

[Chuck]

TO SCUPPER OR NOT TO SCUPPER!!!!  Whats been on my mind as I study and read and develop as a ship modeler.

 

As you guys know by now, I am taking a somewhat minimalist approach to my model of the Winchelsea.   Although I have still included more details for a "kit" project of a frigate than any such project on the market today.   Minimalist might not be the best word for it.   But like any painter who studies the original master works of old, I have chosen to take a deep study of those masters of our craft for my model.

 

I have shown the scuppers and the drains for the pumps and manger on the plans....but if this project has achieved anything, I hope it has given you that same sense of admiration for the model makers of the 18th century.  I hope I have convinced many of you not to take just a passing glance at these beautiful works but instead really study them.  Study them for the details that they chose to add as well as those details they chose to omit.  The finished works of these early masters are quite beautiful to me in that they dont "kitchen sink" their models.   The end result is pleasing to the eye because you are left with an overall picture of the graceful lines, colors and shapes on the finished models.  The beauty is not lost because of the vast number of details added just because you can add them....or just because it might show others that your knowledge of such details is very broad.

 

Have a look at as many contemporary models as you can look at....I defy any of you to find one example of a contemporary frigate model that shows the scuppers.  I think they would lessen the appearance and beauty of the sheer profile because it would be distracting somewhat.  I think the the original masters knew this as well, because it is not difficult to add these details.  But you would be hard pressed to spot any old master works with them.

 

So I will omit them on my Winnie but you guys can decide if you would like to add this feature among the others I am omitting.  I dont want to hinder your desire to add these features because of my personal decision to go minimalist on this go-around.  So this completes Chapter 5 and I will start production of the parts for you guys.  Next up will be gun carriages and eyebolts for them along the bulwarks.  But if you want to add them.....this would be the best time to add those scuppers.

 

Just some inspiration below!!!!  And a great conversation and worth further discussion.....As someone who schooled to become a painter at one of most prestigious art schools, this question was something we also discussed.  I think based on the "trend" with current models being developed...it is a very timely question for us as artists of this craft to start asking.

 

-How much detail becomes too much detail?

-Should I add every detail to show I have the knowledge of such things?

-Should I add them to show others I have the skills to create them with high levels of craftsmanship?

-Will they detract from the final work of ART?

-How necessary to the finished model are these details?

-Is my goal to make as close a miniature representation of the original as possible, or is it to make a as beautiful a representation as I imagine it to be?

-Have modelling trends gone too far simply because the technology to create them has made it easier to do so, does this make for a better object de art?  Or just "because we can?"

 

Anyway....these are the questions that are suddenly on my mind as I develop these projects as of late.  I hate to get all philosophical, BUT I have been studying and reading a lot about the early painters I admire lately and it has crossed over into my thinking about current trends in ship modelling.   I would love to hear your thoughts??? Especially from those more experienced builders.

 

 

Having said that.....here is one of the very few examples where they are shown.   I will leave it to you to decide.

Although this example is a bit later and much smaller ship....a sloop of 22 guns if memory serves me correct.

 

 

 

[Gregory]

Great food for thought Chuck..   Another consideration might be whether adding details are reasonable at the scale you are working at.

 

How often have we seen an otherwise beautiful model where the belaying pins look like bowling pins, or the ratline clove hitches scale to the size of grapefruit ?

[Beckmann]

Sorry Chuck, but what means scupper? I can't find it in my dictionary.

[Chuck]

These...but more importantly other features and details that are now trendy to pile into a project.   I am taking a step back with this project and using the contemporary examples as my guide.  "Less is more".....😁

 

 

 

[Beckmann]

I think it is a question of, what kind of model we want to build. There are different traditions of modelshipbuilding. The more puristic English Royal Navy dockyard model, or the models of the French Naval yards, or the famous Trianon collection. They show virtually every possible detail. Look here these cabins. They are like little dollhouses.
 

 

The focus is on the details. They cover up the beauty of the hull. Very interesting and a document, but for the Winchelsea, I would prefer the English style. 

 

Edited January 31, 2021 by Beckmann

[Chuck]

Thats not my thing at all.   Do t care for the way that looks but more power to the folks that want that.

[dvm27]

The scuppers are also omitted on those lovely 18th perspective paintings of ship models (at least in the ones I've seen). As are the masts and rigging. There's no right or wrong here, just individual preference. Those Navy Board models you've included are elegant in their simplicity.

[Jorge Diaz O]

Personally I will do it with all the details, candles, barrels, copper lining and painting. Not for vanity or to demonstrate my knowledge, on the contrary I must study a lot to achieve that. But I already have all the necessary information for .5 years to do it? I hope I have so much life for that and I will enjoy every minute, as I have been building HMS Triton all this time.

[AnobiumPunctatum]

If you like to copper HMS Winchelsea, I am quite sure that you have to follow the appearence of the Minerva model, this means that you have to change the design from Chuck. Chucks design shows the ship before the large repair. During this repair from 03/1780 until 04/1782 the ship was coppered.

I like to rig my model, because I love the appearance of a "fully" rigged frigate. But until I reach this stage I have a lot to do and much more to learn.

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

I would humbly inexperiencely think coppering would  ruin beauty and philosophy behind it for me. and cover palnking  . im with Greg. elegant with simplicity. its same logic applied as going with treenails. posibilities are endless. - fully ? partially with framing ? one side? I would for sure not put scuppers on mine. Im eager to see  how top deck would look like apart of cannons. Would there be those crossbeams like on greenwich model we see? only Chuck knows    im looking forward to explore it as it goes....

Edited February 1, 2021 by Vladimir_Wairoa
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[AnobiumPunctatum]

On 1/31/2021 at 7:41 PM, Beckmann said:

Sorry Chuck, but what means scupper? I can't find it in my dictionary.

 

Scuppers in German means "Speigatten"

[GrandpaPhil]

I like to add as much detail as I can.  It helps me to challenge myself.  Sometimes it adds to the model, sometimes it does not.  But the point of a model, for me, is to try for photorealism.

 

I like to make my models look well used, to include wear, possibly some damage depending on the subject and weathering, and like they are in use.  However, I used to be a wargamer and I tend to treat my ships (most models actually) like gigantic wargaming miniatures.  
 

One of the goals of my Hannah build is to try and make crew figures to really bring it to life.  I would like to do the same for my Victory.

 

When I get around to building Winchelsea, I would like to build it as if it were at sea, fully weathered, under sail, with a full crew.  Hopefully, I will be better at it at that point.

Edited February 12, 2021 by GrandpaPhil

[FrankWouts]

On 2/2/2021 at 6:41 AM, AnobiumPunctatum said:

 

Scuppers in German means "Speigatten"

Scuppers, in Dutch almost the same as in German:  ‘spuigaten’, that is the ‘holes’ along which surplus or superfluous water on the deck(s) can flow back in to the sea.

In Dutch we also can get things ‘of our chest’ by ‘spuien’, that is ‘get rid of’  thoughts that bother us.

Not to mention all the thousand expressions we have with ‘wind’ in it!

Edited February 23, 2021 by FrankWouts

[Stuntflyer]

Chuck,

 

I have a question regarding the positioning of the tops of the gun port lid hinges. How is the position for the top of each lid hinge determined?

 

Mike

Edited March 1, 2021 by Stuntflyer

[Chuck]

It varies wildly on contemporary models....some really close to the top edge of the lid while some others are a bit further away.  The key is to place them where the lids will open and close in their openings properly.  Remember that the lids and port openings are NOT square or at right angles....but the hinges must be squared up to each other to make them work properly. More or less.   I tried to place them appropriately on the plans so I would follow that.  But one hinge on a lid could be higher than the other one   so their tops are level with each other.

 

Its hard to explain....but both hinges need to be level....even though the top of the lids follow the sheer.   Because the sides of each port are straight up and down they wouldnt open or close properly unless this was the case.  On a model it doesnt have to be so extreme however because you will most likely show them open and they wont be seen....or certainly not opened and closed.  They are fixed either open or closed....so you can just make it look good.

 

 

[Stuntflyer]

3 hours ago, Chuck said:

But one hinge on a lid could be higher than the other one   so their tops are level with each other.

By "level" do you mean parallel to the bottom of the keel? I checked the plan drawing and the aft port hinge tops for each lid measure that way. The exception being the port at the bow.

Edited March 1, 2021 by Stuntflyer

[Chuck]

For the most part....but the bow port is a bit of an optical illusion as it curves.  

[Stuntflyer]

On 12/12/2020 at 8:58 AM, Chuck said:

keep in mind that the bottom of the front panel is beveled so it will fit snug along the forward edge of the bench on top of the curved counter.

Chuck, I must have read this a half dozen times and yet I'm still not clear on what you are saying.

 

Thanks,

 

Mike

[Chuck]

The bottom edge of the front panel sits on the curved counter......NOT on the deck.   So you have to bevel it to sit flat on top of it.  You will know once you place it in position.....you will see a small gap along the edge if you dont bevel it.

 

 

[Gus M]

really amazing work, congrats and thanks for sharing

[Chuck]

Just a start on the gun carriages....You can paint them as I have or leave them natural.

 

I first sanded both sides of the sheet before I removed the parts....then I sanded the char lightly from the edges.

 

I prefer to paint all parts first before assembly.  But I know everyone has their preference.  Note the wheels/trucks were left natural.  In addition,  the ends of the axels were rounded off and also left natural.   I removed only the smallest amount of laser char before painting these.  You dont want to reduce the size of the parts too much because they need to fit into the jig which I will make available to everyone....also pictured.   The jig parts are all laser cut.

 

Then the axels are placed in the jig...hopefully they fit snug.  One tip is to build the jig around the actual axel parts to ensure a tight fit.  Then add the sides and glue in place.  When dry...remove from the jig.  Dont glue it to the jig.

 

Next I added the two other wood parts on the front and back ends of the carriage.  These parts are slightly longer so you have to sand them for a nice fit.  Finally I also added a 1mm round bar across the center.  It goes through the hole in the sides of the carriages...see below.

 

At this stage you can either start adding the metal work...eyebolts or finish building the carriages.  Its up to you.   I added the carriage bed and quoin at this stage....below.

 

By the way please do follow the plan for these which is available on the large sheets you printed.  I may copy them to 8 1/2X11 sheets for you guys to make it easier to print and have next to you.

 

The metal work is straight forward...

 

eye bolts and split rings.   These were made from 24 gauge black wire.  The split rings were made using a #41 drill bit.  The other bolts were just simulated using 25 pound black fishing line.  They were left standing proud of the surface a bit after slicing off the excess.

 

If you will rig each cannon dont insert the eye bolt with split rings yet.  This is easier done later by placing them onto your breech rope.  More on that later.  

 

I havent made the quoin handle yet.   That is next.  Then I will add the cannon and trunnion caps.  Stay tuned.   So far I have only made this one carriage today to show you guys the process.   This will take a while to make all 24 carriages.

 

To begin I made all of the eye bolts and split rings and cut the brass 1mm rods to length.  Its a lot of work....

 

Each carriage has 7 eye bolts...or a total of 168

2 split rings....48

and 24 bras rods cut to length and blackened.

 

ONE IMPORTANT NOTE:  its no fun to make this many eye bolts or hooks...which you will need for the carriages including another 125 eyebolts for the bulwarks.  BUT there is nothing that wrecks a model more than gun carriages with commercial eye bolts that are way too large and made from wire that is way too thin.   That is why I make my own.  It just looks really bad. So take your time.  Also note the eye bolts in that picture above.  Each one is sunk into the carriage sides a bit because that is how it was done.  This prevents them from twisting.  The cedar is great for this as it is soft and you can just push them in a bit to sink them.

 

Use the plans for the size and shape of the eyebolts.

 

I will update this when I make the quoin handle and start on the cap squares...

 

PDF download of gun carriages...

winnie gun carriages.pdf

 

 

 

 

[glbarlow]

I'm sure it's simple, but would you mind showing your process/jig for making eye bolts?  I keep winding up with the stem off-center.  Also your thoughts on the size of split rings for 1:48 and the best gauge wire to use also for 1:48?

 

Again, it may be a sigh request but I'd to learn the best way to do these in bulk verses my struggling to churn out 4 for Cheerful's bowsprit.

 

 

[Chuck]

Im not sure how I can do that.   Its really hard to explain.  I just use a good set of needle nose pliers and nippers.   I am not sure ...let me think on this.

 

Chuck

[glbarlow]

Even wire gauge and dimensions of rings and eye bolts would help, hard to sort out from photos. I’m trying not to lean on Amati store bought for at least for some of the more visible.