Chris Watton and Vanguard Models news and updates

[chris watton]

Just a little update on Indefatigable. Development going well, still tons to do, but the pre prototype (test bed) model is starting to take shape with final parts (and some not so final parts)..

Edited April 9, 2022 by chris watton

[Dave_E]

Good Morning Chris,

 

Is it your intent to offer the Indy as a completed ship, or without parts of the hull or decks for visibility?

[chris watton]

53 minutes ago, Dave_E said:

Good Morning Chris,

 

Is it your intent to offer the Indy as a completed ship, or without parts of the hull or decks for visibility?

All of my kits are FULL kits. It will be entirely up to the modeller as to what to leave on or off, but the kit will be complete - full hull, decks, fittings, masts and rig. What you see is simply a work in progress, the model is nowhere near complete!

 

Here are the upper and poop sub decks (to be planked over) They come with tabbed slots, so you have a choice whether to leave them in situ or remove them, so you can see the deck below.

Edited April 9, 2022 by chris watton

[Blue Ensign]

Looking impressive Chris, I'm pleased to see you have included the ledges with the deck beams, nice touch. 👍

 

Are the gun carriages the same style as Sphinx with the built in cap squares? I like the system but it does prevent  pre drilling the carriages and decks to take securing pins.

 

Just thinking of ways to secure the numerous guns below decks. Those lower deck guns will be in position  fairly early on in the build, with a lot of handling of the hull to follow with the inherent risk of dislodgement.

 

Regards,

 

B.E.

[chris watton]

13 minutes ago, Blue Ensign said:

Looking impressive Chris, I'm pleased to see you have included the ledges with the deck beams, nice touch. 👍

 

Are the gun carriages the same style as Sphinx with the built in cap squares? I like the system but it does prevent  pre drilling the carriages and decks to take securing pins.

 

Just thinking of ways to secure the numerous guns below decks. Those lower deck guns will be in position  fairly early on in the build, with a lot of handling of the hull to follow with the inherent risk of dislodgement.

 

Regards,

 

B.E.

 

Although they will be completely hidden! 

 

Cannon carriages - These will be the same as I did for Victory. The front axles will have a tab which will locate into a slot on the gun deck. The barrels are added after. I didn't want to do this, and avoided this method, hoping to think up a solution. However, unlike Sphinx, this has some pretty heavy duty beams and a much wider gangway with boat beams under the gangway, not on top. The only real solution was to add the carriages and then barrels later, so no cap squares. The 12 pounder long chasers on the forecastle will have integrated cap squares, however, and the 18 x 42 pounder carronades have none anyway..

 

ETA - The kit will come with 1.5x6mm limewood for first planking, I used 1x5, so I could more easily check the overall run of the planking, all is fine...

Edited April 9, 2022 by chris watton

[Blue Ensign]

'Although they will be completely hidden! '

 

Not on my build they wouldn't 😉

 

Sounds like the best approach with those below deck guns.👍

 

B.E.

[chris watton]

18 minutes ago, Blue Ensign said:

'Although they will be completely hidden! '

 

Not on my build they wouldn't 😉

 

Sounds like the best approach with those below deck guns.👍

 

B.E.

Don't forget that there's quite a few cannon to be added to the quarterdeck (14) and forecastle (6), and they aren't small, so the openings have been made to take that into account

[hollowneck]

4 hours ago, chris watton said:

All of my kits are FULL kits. It will be entirely up to the modeller as to what to leave on or off, but the kit will be complete - full hull, decks, fittings, masts and rig. What you see is simply a work in progress, the model is nowhere near complete!

 

Here are the upper and poop sub decks (to be planked over) They come with tabbed slots, so you have a choice whether to leave them in situ or remove them, so you can see the deck below.

 

Thanks for showing us your progress, Chris; looking good.

I, for one, would like the OPTION of ordering fully lasered decks WITHOUT the "tabbed slots." In building my Sphinx I opted to not build her as a "Navy Board reveal model" and at present I'm in her mid-rigging stages. As you likely know, I detailed this decision in my current Build Log, and with regard to using the "slotted" decking, I've detailed the decisions and solutions I had to make to include the preferred, fully-lasered etched decks. My decision turned out to be acceptable to me, but not ideal as the "slot lines" for the cutouts still vaguely appear on close look.

 

I understand there will be many modelers who will want to build this model without the considerable overhead of masting/rigging - this could possibly be the majority I acknowledge. The accurate and detailed "etched" decks of Vanguard Models are a superb feature and I would always prefer to mount these as FULL DECKS (no planking required, in other words). I plan to continue building your models as fully-represented ships with masts and all the appropriate rigging; I would hope there are modeler's here who share this preference.

 

Perhaps you could possibly "poll" here in your thread, see if offering a full-lasered decks option would be of interest to others. This would be Indy-specific, but could also apply to future Sphinx builds.

 

 

Edited April 9, 2022 by hollowneck

[chris watton]

There is no maple veneer laser etched decks in this kit, the decks you see are 0.8mm plywood sub decks (using 800x600mm size sheets), like any other normal kit, except I have lightly etched planking detail, in case some want to use as a guide when planking with the 1x4mm planking strips. the 1x4 planking strips will be standard in this kit, it does not have a laser etched maple veneer deck option for two reasons.

 

The first is that I have to get this size made as a special order, and the price per sheet (one 800x600mm sheet per kit) is a lot, over double the cost of the standard 600x400mm sheets,  coupled with the fact that I cannot use every one of the very expensive sheets, as some will have natural marks and colours too contrasting on the surface that will not look right on a finished deck. This is always a problem with the standard 600x400mm sizes, and I can only use around two thirds of each maple veneer order because of this.

 

The second reason is time, each full Indy deck sheet would take over one hour each. It makes no economic sense, coupled with the fact that half the modellers who buy these kits go their own way anyway, and plank the deck.

 

Indefatigable is designed with individual deck planking and hull planking in mind (as will all very large kits). I am using a maple veneer deck set for mine to simply speed up the development process.

 

As for the cut outs on the ply sub decks, if you want to plank the whole deck without the optional openings, then just leave the retention tabs in place and plank over them. 

 

If the price to scrap ratio for the maple veneer was much better, I would use it, but unfortunately, this isn't the case.

 

 

[hollowneck]

22 minutes ago, chris watton said:

There is no maple veneer laser etched decks in this kit, the decks you see are 0.8mm plywood sub decks (using 800x600mm size sheets), like any other normal kit, except I have lightly etched planking detail, in case some want to use as a guide when planking with the 1x4mm planking strips. the 1x4 planking strips will be standard in this kit, it does not have a laser etched maple veneer deck option for two reasons.

 

The first is that I have to get this size made as a special order, and the price per sheet (one 800x600mm sheet per kit) is a lot, over double the cost of the standard 600x400mm sheets,  coupled with the fact that I cannot use every one of the very expensive sheets, as some will have natural marks and colours too contrasting on the surface that will not look right on a finished deck. This is always a problem with the standard 600x400mm sizes, and I can only use around two thirds of each maple veneer order because of this.

 

The second reason is time, each full Indy deck sheet would take over one hour each. It makes no economic sense, coupled with the fact that half the modellers who buy these kits go their own way anyway, and plank the deck.

 

Indefatigable is designed with individual deck planking and hull planking in mind (as will all very large kits). I am using a maple veneer deck set for mine to simply speed up the development process.

 

As for the cut outs on the ply sub decks, if you want to plank the whole deck without the optional openings, then just leave the retention tabs in place and plank over them. 

 

If the price to scrap ratio for the maple veneer was much better, I would use it, but unfortunately, this isn't the case.

 

 

Ah-Ha! Thanks for the detailed explanations, Chris.

 

I didn't realize I was looking at a "sub-deck;" you were clear about these being "planked over." My error.  I better understand the economics factor with the large size of this model and the issue with the "scrap" resulting from blemishes, coloration, etc. I don't mind planking decks - and I'll simply plank over the tabbed cutouts - but I have to admit I've gotten used to the efficiency, high-quality and detail afforded by the lasered decks of your most recent models - as well as some from your past (specifically the Russian brig Mercury, and if I recall correctly, the Revenge).

 

The laser-etching on the sub decks will be immensely helpful as decent templates for more accurate margin planking, nibbling and straightforward butt planking. I'll assume the deck strips will be supplied from a good quality, tightly grained stock.

 

You're making fast progress on your design. Thanks again for sharing it.

 

 

 

[chris watton]

8 minutes ago, hollowneck said:

Ah-Ha! Thanks for the detailed explanations, Chris.

 

I didn't realize I was looking at a "sub-deck;" you were clear about these being "planked over." My error.  I better understand the economics factor with the large size of this model and the issue with the "scrap" resulting from blemishes, coloration, etc. I don't mind planking decks - and I'll simply plank over the tabbed cutouts - but I have to admit I've gotten used to the efficiency, high-quality and detail afforded by the lasered decks of your most recent models - as well as some from your past (specifically the Russian brig Mercury, and if I recall correctly, the Revenge).

 

The laser-etching on the sub decks will be immensely helpful as decent templates for more accurate margin planking, nibbling and straightforward butt planking. I'll assume the deck strips will be supplied from a good quality, tightly grained stock.

 

You're making fast progress on your design. Thanks again for sharing it.

 

 

 

Cheers   I had originally intended for the larger models to be not so parts heavy as Sphinx, more like the Amati Victory design, but I think scale deck beams are a step forward and, as the deck beams have absolutely no relation to the hull framing spacing, or kit bulkhead spacing, I could not go back to that relatively archaic method, not when a simple beam ledge pattern can in integrated in with the bulkheads to take the beams, making the beams perfectly aligned and spaced with the minimum of fuss.

 

So I have already gone right past my original remit for this kit, but I do believe it's for the better. After Sphinx, anything less for even larger and more expensive kits would seem regressive.

[glbarlow]

7 hours ago, chris watton said:

Indefatigable is designed with individual deck planking and hull planking in mind

Makes perfect sense for a model this size and caliber. 

[glbarlow]

6 hours ago, hollowneck said:

the deck strips will be supplied from a good quality, tightly grained stock.

Not sure why you’d think otherwise given Chris’ track record. 

[allanyed]

18 hours ago, Blue Ensign said:

Looking impressive Chris, I'm pleased to see you have included the ledges with the deck beams, nice touch.

 Probably just a misspoken word as I see the carlings but the ledges are not shown.  No need for either on a model if the deck is fully planked, but both ledges and carlings would be great to show if some deck planking is left off.  Not a difficult thing to add the ledges from some scrap wood though, if they are not in the kit.   Based on the scantlings in the Shipbuilder's Repository 1788, at 1:64 on the gun deck they would be 0.086" broad X 0.078 deep.  For the upper deck they would be 0.0625" broad X 0.047" deep.  The spacing of the ledges is such that there is no less than 9" nor more than 12" asunder.  The breadth and depth are slightly larger on the upper deck in Steel's 1805 Elements and Practices of Naval Architecture.

Looking like another super kit Christopher!

Allan

[chris watton]

I will show you the problems I can have with maple veneer. This is a picture of a few examples of a whole batch I had to return. However, all of my supplier current stock is like this, which is absolutely no good to me. But as always with natural products, this is something I sometimes have to contend with.

 

For Indy, I have attached a pic of the sample deck planking I received. It is called Red Alder. It is slightly darker than lime and consistent in colour/tone and grain fairly tight, which is important for deck planking - needs to be quite plain. I did contemplate Tanganyika, but realised that some batches are great, and some are God awful, so didn't really want to risk that. Same goes for maple strip, some batches could like like that scrap you see in the maple veneer pic. 

Edited April 10, 2022 by chris watton

[Blue Ensign]

1 hour ago, allanyed said:

 Probably just a misspoken word as I see the carlings but the ledges are not shown.  No need for either on a model if the deck is fully planked, but both ledges and carlings would be great to show if some deck planking is left off.  Not a difficult thing to add the ledges from some scrap wood though, if they are not in the kit.   Based on the scantlings in the Shipbuilder's Repository 1788, at 1:64 on the gun deck they would be 0.086" broad X 0.078 deep.  For the upper deck they would be 0.0625" broad X 0.047" deep.  The spacing of the ledges is such that there is no less than 9" nor more than 12" asunder.  The breadth and depth are slightly larger on the upper deck in Steel's 1805 Elements and Practices of Naval Architecture.

Looking like another super kit Christopher!

Allan

Slip of the tongue Allan, I meant of course the lodging knees.

 

B.E.

[glbarlow]

It’s ok because I don’t know a lodging from a knee from a carling, it’s. Amazing I can build a model at all 😂🤣

[James H]

11 minutes ago, glbarlow said:

It’s ok because I don’t know a lodging from a knee from a carling, it’s. Amazing I can build a model at all 😂🤣

Most of the stuff I know about ship constructions comes from Chris.

 

He tells me what I need to do, and I have to ask what he means! That's how I'm learning! I now know a hanging knee from a lodging knee, from a carling etc. It' an education, I tell ya 😬🤓

[BenD]

That Red Alder looks really good. Even tone along the planks. I'd use it.

 

The Tanganyika I had in my HMS snake kit was awful and I bought replacement Tanganyika and it was just as bad... 

[chris watton]

3 minutes ago, BenD said:

That Red Alder looks really good. Even tone along the planks. I'd use it.

 

The Tanganyika I had in my HMS snake kit was awful and I bought replacement Tanganyika and it was just as bad... 

I have a batch of really nice Tanganyika that I did intend to use for kits until I opted for pear, and I use it (Tang) for my prototypes. Problem with this strip is that I really like it, it looks tonally pleasing - but that doesn't mean the next batch I order would be the same. And this is the big problem with this material, it is never consistent. 

[hollowneck]

On 4/9/2022 at 11:37 PM, glbarlow said:

Not sure why you’d think otherwise given Chris’ track record. 

 

Following-on this developing thread, I'll add that some of Chris' earlier kits sold by Caldercraft and Amati sometimes had "iffy" strip wood (decks & hulls), acceptable in one kit, crap in the next. It was this "fact-of-life" that led me down a path of learning about and sourcing better materials, and replacing lots of the kit woods. Like me, you've built a couple of Chris' legacy designs (Vanguard, Pegasus, Granado). It is entirely feasible you may have gotten better quality strips than me in all your kits.

 

I agree. Indeed, Chris' recent track record - with his own company now and the outstanding effort to control the material quality - speaks for itself.

 

Edited April 11, 2022 by hollowneck

[ccoyle]

6 hours ago, chris watton said:

Red Alder

 

Just be aware that red alder is not rot resistant, so don't keep your model permanently immersed in water. 😉

[glbarlow]

2 hours ago, hollowneck said:

Chris' earlier kits sold by Caldercraft

Key point here is that was Caldercraft, not Vanguard. His designs not his company, big difference. 
 

And yes I routinely replaced and upgraded those older kit’s wood as a matter of practice. 

[starlight]

May I be so bold to ask what "good" Tanganyika strip looks like? The Amati Fly kit I am building has given me no end of trouble with this material. It is splintery, open-grained, impossible to get a clean edge with. Probably closer to papier-mâché than wood... Furthermore, I have learned since starting this hobby that many wood species are mislabeled.. e.g. Tanganyika, walnut, ramin.

 

Anyways, I am glad that Mr. Watton runs his own company now and is able to make his own decisions on the actual realization of his excellent designs.

 

-starlight

[chris watton]

I cannot speak for Amati, but I do have some good stock of Tanganyika that I use to plank my prototypes. You can see it on my Alert and Speedy, the original prototypes were made before finally settling on pear. But you are right, this material (and to a lesser extent, walnut) can be of massively variable quality. But I guess this is true to a certain extent for most natural materials.

[chris watton]

Just about completed designs for the poop area. Pics look a little rough, but please remember this model is used as a test bed, nothing more, to see how well parts fit. They are altered if required (and this is often...)

 

The chequered floor is actually laser engraved high grade card. All false pillars in this kit for stern, quarter galleries and poop screen will be in pearwood. I think they are much better than the usual photo etched ones.

 

I have just glued down the poop deck. Next - second planking...

 

Oh, I also added a pic showing the two designs I did for the poop screen bulkhead. I decided to go the upper pattern.

[Blue Ensign]

Nice Rudder Head cover Chris, 1 like the compass design on the top. 👍

These little details make all the difference, at least to me.

 

B.E.

 

[chris watton]

17 minutes ago, Blue Ensign said:

Nice Rudder Head cover Chris, 1 like the compass design on the top. 👍

These little details make all the difference, at least to me.

 

B.E.

 

I am the same!

 

I almost forgot about the 4 carronades under the poop, and then had the problem of the barrels sticking out when in place. My solution for these 4 carronades (now inaccessible) was to make the carriages slide back and forth, and securing the carriage with the lower bed/slide with a pin. This means they can be pushed in until the outer hull is complete, and then can then be pulled back out.

[hollowneck]

4 hours ago, Blue Ensign said:

Nice Rudder Head cover Chris, 1 like the compass design on the top. 👍

These little details make all the difference, at least to me.

 

B.E.

 

Indeed. The detail on both the rudder trunk and the Officer's poop screen look excellent.

I must admit this level of built-in detail is tempting me to think about building this model in the "dockyard" style. Hmmmm. decisions, decisions! I already have a 64-gun fully-rigged, so perhaps the razéed one ala' Navy Board will be a nice change-up. It would be considerably smaller to display!

Edited April 14, 2022 by hollowneck
grammar

[mtaylor]

Nothing wrong with Navy Board style, IMHO.   I'm headed there myself as display space is at a premium in my place.