F-86F-30 Sabre by Egilman - Kinetic - 1/32nd scale

[Danstream]

Good steady progress, looking forward for more.

By the way, speaking of a good filler that can be sanded and even scribed, have you considered using CA glue mixed with talc powder?

Best regards,

Dan

[Egilman]

Thanks Dan...

 

Yep I've tried it, but usually I let it harden too much before I'm finished sanding, it's an option I've used in the past but only for certain situations, usually for flat open seams... It does have the advantage of making very hard fills and joins but in my experience it's not so good with complex joints or sharp corners... The other issue is that it doesn't harden at the same speed, some CA's are faster than others, even from the same brand... 

 

And part of it is preference, simple Testors Putty (grey tube) dries slow enough that you can work it for a few minutes before it begins to harden and if you make a mistake you can easily remove it before it completely cures, the down side is it is an overnight cure.... 12-24hrs for a completely hard cure, but that is also a benefit, it gives you a natural pause in the build sequence...

 

It's another tool in the box for those situations that would benefit from it... But not a general use tool....

[Egilman]

And another update... I've found that the plastic this kit is molded in is a bit soft, not really a big issue with building... But the plastic formulation does react a bit differently from regular polystyrene... Usually when I'm gluing plastic from most kits or Evergreen stock with Testors brand MEK glue, the joint is cured within ten minutes of application, the plastic this kit has been molded in takes about 4 hours to cure sufficiently to hold and overnight to completely cure...

 

I found this out during the fuselage assembly portion... There is a part...

D-13 on the drawing, (circled above) that is too big, 1/16th inch too big... When installed, it spreads the upper joint of the rear fuselage half wide open...... The fix is simple, cut the part down so it fits properly without spreading the joint... The initial installation exposed the glue/plastic problem by pushing the joint out... Thankfully there is an insert panel that creates a break in the joint and stops the spread before it ruins the entire upper joint...

 

The fix is to cut a 1/16th inch section out of the part at the top to either side of the joint and snap it back in place so it doesn't put any pressure on the joint itself...

When snapped into place it becomes a trapped part that doesn't require any glue at all...

But I'm still going to glue it cause it will act to hold the fuselage separation joint together as a reinforcement maintaining it's shape....

 

As you can see below, makes for a much tighter and smoother joint....

This is a beautiful kit, but it does have some idiosyncrasies unique to it...

 

Anyway, Onwards...

Edited July 13, 2022 by Egilman

[CDW]

20 hours ago, Danstream said:

Good steady progress, looking forward for more.

By the way, speaking of a good filler that can be sanded and even scribed, have you considered using CA glue mixed with talc powder?

Best regards,

Dan

I read where one well-known modeler (and a member of this forum) uses CA mixed with dental powder as a filler. Says it works to perfection for him. I bought the dental powder from a vendor on Ebay, but as yet have not tried it out.

Edited July 13, 2022 by CDW

[Egilman]

28 minutes ago, CDW said:

I read where one well-known modeler (and a member of this forum) uses CA mixed with dental powder as a filler.

I could see where that might work better, The Dental Repair powder is a water mix resin and cures indescribably hard.. But yet is still sandable and carveable... And it's wipeable smooth as long as it hasn't fully cured....

 

Well worth a try...

[popeye the sailor]

I bought some Mr. Hobby putty.......the only thing I don't like about it,  is that it skins over really quick.  gotta work fast   look'in good there Bud!

[Egilman]

Thanks Dennis...

 

Proceeding slowly, making sure I hopefully get it right...

 

Main assembly of the fuselage is complete, awaiting it's final cure...

Next was the control surfaces, Flaps and Rudder....

I went ahead and checked my source pics and came up with this one... late '52 or so Suwon, Korea.... Two F-86's sitting alert off the end of the runway...

They are F-86E's instead of F-86F's but the period is correct... Notice the Flaps are down and the Speed Brakes closed.... So sitting in their revetment the flaps were closed but sitting alert could be open or closed for either control surface... Now I have a debate going on in my mind, which way I want to make it?

 

Anyway, just finished gluing up the wing....

Once it is cured I'm going to have to heat bend the dihedral into the wing... 3.5 degrees, the kit molded them perfectly flat....

 

Making progress my friends... Thanks for the likes and following along...

 

EG

 

[Landlubber Mike]

On 7/11/2022 at 7:28 PM, Egilman said:

I've read that it is a wipe on wipe off type of stuff, only for filling gaps... Sandable smoothing fills take place after it is cured for at least a day...

 

I don't know, others may have a better understanding of it, all I know is I haven't found an application yet where it works like we understand normal putties do...

And it has come off everything I've ever put it on...

Hey EG, nice work on the Sabre.  For putty, try Mr. Dissolved Putty from Mr. Hobby - I haven't tried it yet, but it looks like a more enhanced version of Tamiya putty and their Mr. Surfacer products.  I also recently watched a video from Plasmo on YouTube who also suggested for big seams to use the rubber reinforced CA glue.  Apparently it fills well and sands easier than standard CA.  I believe I've also seen him use the Mr. Hobby/Mr. Surfacer products in various models.  Personally, I've come around to really liking the "Mr." line of modeling supplies.  Their primers (Mr. Surfacer) and paints are absolutely fantastic.  Need to have good ventilation though as the products smell pretty bad.

 

https://www.mr-hobby.com/en/product2/category_12/263.html

 

Nice job by the way on the CMK aftermarket.  I'm working on a Brewster Buffalo with four CMK aftermarket sets on it, and it's been many hours performing surgery to the kit parts.  I've found, however, that the fit of CMK is generally pretty good compared to some aftermarket companies.  The instructions can be puzzling at times, to the say the least, and some of the very detailed parts are very fragile.  Also, how they attach some of the resin parts to plugs makes removal a little difficult. Despite these minor issues, for me it's a lot more fun using the aftermarket sets than building OOB.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Landlubber Mike

[Egilman]

Ok Brothers, another update....

 

Plastic bending... 

 

The wing on this kit was molded flat... Unfortunately the real aircraft has a 3.5 degree dihedral to it... Dihedral is upsweep, the wing tips are higher than the wing root... And on the F-86 it was barely noticeable but it is there... So how do we go about making the wing tips higher than the roots without warping the wing?

 

Heat gun... But first we have to figure out how much to bend the wing at the root for a 3.5 degree upsweep...

 

The length of the wing in scale is 6 inches from root to tip...

To figure out how much lift we need we turn to solidworks...

This consists of drawing a horizontal line 6" long and a corresponding line at an angle to that line... Then we measure the angle between the lines and set it to 3.5 degrees...

Then you draw a vertical line joining the open end of the two lines and measure it... in this case 3/8th of an inch is how much we need to raise the wing tips....

 

So how do we go about this in real life?

Working upside down, you use a 3/8th piece of wood just wide enough to support the wing roots on the center and place a block on the center to hold them flat... You then place a couple of pieces of light wood on the wing tips to increase their weight a bit to let gravity work in our favor...

 

WE then take a standard painters heat gun on it's mildest setting and gently apply heat along the wing root on the bottom side watching carefully as the wing tips settle to the bench surface... Remove the heat frequently cause you do not want to overheat the plastic.. (which can happen awful fast) when the wing settles to the surface remove the heat and allow to cool, then do the same to the opposite wing, allowing it to completely cool when it has settled...

At this point you remove the blocks at the wing tips and check if the tips are still settled on the bench surface, if not another slight application of gentle heat to the wing not touching and allow it to cool completely... (takes about 10 minutes)

 

At this point you have added dihedral to your wing....

Maintaining the straightness of the wing itself.... without damaging any details on the wing surface...

Next up, assembling and fitting the wing to the fuselage.... (sometimes this process will warp the rear center section of the wing a little bit, you will need to adjust the fit)

 

This is the old school process of adjusting a wing...

 

More later...

 

Onwards...

 

 

[Egilman]

1 hour ago, Landlubber Mike said:

Hey EG, nice work on the Sabre.  For putty, try Mr. Dissolved Putty from Mr. Hobby - I haven't tried it yet, but it looks like a more enhanced version of Tamiya putty and their Mr. Surfacer products.  I also recently watched a video from Plasmo on YouTube who also suggested for big seams to use the rubber reinforced CA glue.  Apparently it fills well and sands easier than standard CA.  I believe I've also seen him use the Mr. Hobby/Mr. Surfacer products in various models.  Personally, I've come around to really liking the "Mr." line of modeling supplies.  Their primers (Mr. Surfacer) and paints are absolutely fantastic.  Need to have good ventilation though as the products smell pretty bad.

 

https://www.mr-hobby.com/en/product2/category_12/263.html

 

Nice job by the way on the CMK aftermarket.  I'm working on a Brewster Buffalo with four CMK aftermarket sets on it, and it's been many hours performing surgery to the kit parts.  I've found, however, that the fit of CMK is generally pretty good compared to some aftermarket companies.  The instructions can be puzzling at times, to the say the least, and some of the very detailed parts are very fragile.  Also, how they attach some of the resin parts to plugs makes removal a little difficult. Despite these minor issues, for me it's a lot more fun using the aftermarket sets than building OOB.

Thanks Mike, I have several of their products I use frequently Mr Surfacer 500 & 1000 to be exact... Great products for what they are intended for... (filling spaces where sanding is undesirable) and I agree, use in a well ventilated area...

 

CMK's parts are pretty good getting up there with Eduard in quality and their casting is the equal of Eduard... I'm sure as time wears on their instructions will improve which is an area that all the aftermarket companies could improve upon... 

 

One of the most fun parts of this hobby is learning and engineering the changes to make the model more than just a generic representation of the object... Kinda bring the basic object to life, (and more accurate to boot)

 

It's why I like this hobby so much.... (as we all do brother)

[Canute]

Nice job setting the dihedral. Be interesting how that affects the fit in the wing roots, if any. Are the tailplanes OK? Many manufacturers miss the subtle bends and twists in the airframes.

[Egilman]

3 hours ago, Canute said:

Nice job setting the dihedral. Be interesting how that affects the fit in the wing roots, if any. Are the tailplanes OK? Many manufacturers miss the subtle bends and twists in the airframes.

Thanks brother, it's an easy fix but one must be careful with the heat... The tailplanes are fine, they are a simple pin connection into the hole and they have the proper angle already will be using Gators Grip to install them as given the tricky nature of the plastic I don't want to take a chance that the glue will weaken the pin allowing them to sag...

 

This plastic is interesting... it will shrink before it will sag if too much heat is applied, I'm going to have to cut the rear fuselage tail off the wing section ahead of the landing gear bays and reinstall it and fill the gap afterwards. It did warp a bit during the cooling after applying the heat....

 

I was expecting it so it's not a big deal, and will show pics when I've figured out exactly how to do it... The wing root gap is still going to require some strip filling to close it up completely but it is a lot closer now than it was... I'm just glad I didn't destroy the wing doing this, it was a bit of a gamble given the strange way this plastic responds to gluing and heating... Almost PVC like....

 

As I get into it, it's becoming a little bit more involved than the instructions let on... I mean you can build a decent looking model straight out of the box, even adding aftermarket, but correcting some of the (rather minor) issues is getting technically complex...

 

Nothing I haven't done before.... (and it's helping to keep my mind off some RL issues that are a pretty heavy weight now)

 

Onwards...

 

[Egilman]

Update...

 

The plastic shrinkage issue....

 

I cut off the fuselage tail from the lower wing section, a pretty straightforward cut across the fuselage just aft of the landing gear bays....

To illustrate the shrinkage issue, I fitted the wing and the fuselage section into the positions they will take when glued together...

See the gap? That is how much the plastic shrank with only about 5 minutes light heat... That gap is almost an 1/8th inch... I already checked the wingspan to see if that changed and no it didn't... (thank god) Sometimes we get lucky...

 

This is a formulation of styrene I've not encountered before... Most styrene will just sag and melt in heat, this styrene shrinks before it sags... Fortunately, this is easily fixable, I think I just dodged a bullet... {chuckle}

 

Sometimes we just don't know what we are dealing with.......

[Canute]

That's the break in the fuselage for removing the engine, isn't it.? Many older jets worked that way. I remember seeing F-105s opened up that way.

 

That shrinkage was huge. Luckily it was only one direction. This plastic glues up normally with the usual Tamiya and Testors glues? Understand the GatorGrip for the strong joint without letting the plastic sag. I sometimes use a gel CA to glue styrene, especially gluing very thin stock. The solvents turn thin strips into bacon strips.😉

 

Should be a simple fix, but preserving any detail will be fun.

[Egilman]

18 hours ago, Canute said:

That's the break in the fuselage for removing the engine, isn't it.? Many older jets worked that way. I remember seeing F-105s opened up that way.

 

That shrinkage was huge. Luckily it was only one direction. This plastic glues up normally with the usual Tamiya and Testors glues? Understand the GatorGrip for the strong joint without letting the plastic sag. I sometimes use a gel CA to glue styrene, especially gluing very thin stock. The solvents turn thin strips into bacon strips.😉

 

Should be a simple fix, but preserving any detail will be fun.

Yes that angled line is where it breaks... I'm beginning to believe that this model was designed to be shown split with the tail on it's dolly with the engine hanging out the back... The fuselage thickness from the aft half to the forward half has too many thickness variations to match up perfectly... I'm gonna have to sand away most of the surface detail to get them to match smoothly...

 

I'm gonna try and fill as much as I can but I'm not going to destroy it's looks with too much sanding... I probably shouldn't have added the dihedral to the wings even though it would be noticeable...

 

I think I'm gonna tack the Gear Covers ,Canopy & Speed Brakes in place with canopy glue to do the finish... There are only two places that need a darker sheen to the surface, the two gun panels of course and one that lines the tail under the horizontal stabilizers, the rest is aluminum... Maybe I'm being too critical....

 

Filling and sanding up next.... The gaps in the wing roots are small and at this distance aren't that noticeable, even up close they can hardly be seen... Still debating on flaps down or up, Speed Brakes open or closed....

 

I haven't found a image I like yet...

 

Anyway, this is where she sits right now....

 

Onwards...

[Danstream]

Good fix of the dihedral angle. About that large gap, that needs to be filled with a styrene strip, any other filler will crack with time.

Good luck,

Dan

[Javlin]

3 hours ago, Danstream said:

About that large gap, that needs to be filled with a styrene strip, any other filler will crack with time.

The only way.Oh EG when you decal watch very closely the center Fuselage stripe the pics from one side the next it has two different positions hence the reason I had to paint mine.

[Egilman]

5 hours ago, Danstream said:

Good fix of the dihedral angle. About that large gap, that needs to be filled with a styrene strip, any other filler will crack with time.

Good luck,

Dan

Thanks Brother... Exactly, it needs a stable solid fill and the only way to do that is add material... Plastic stripping is the way...  Putty will shrink over time and destroy the finish....

 

2 hours ago, Javlin said:

The only way.Oh EG when you decal watch very closely the center Fuselage stripe the pics from one side the next it has two different positions hence the reason I had to paint mine.

Agreed my friend... and I remember the decal issue from your build... (and your very nice, well executed fix for it...... The decal position is from the point of the flap to the ...

to the upper corner of the hydraulics service panel and about 6" behind the cabin vent.. (showing under the tail of the open canopy) the Fuel Filler Cover is centered in the yellow stripe... As far as the instructions, yep they are incorrect, so, for the markings, I will be using walkaround images for most stencil placement and historical photos for the markings... But another thing it reveals upon careful study... Many of the scribed panels on the model are incorrect as well... The major panels are good, it's the access/maintenance panels that are wrong... I'm not going to fill and rescribe, that is too much work so Ill go with the flow place the decals in as correct a position as I can and forgo black basing, they do not need to be highlighted anymore than they will be naturally.....

 

As an aside, thanks for the reminders my friends, please keep them coming when you see one... RL is trying it's darndest to stop me but this build is kinda keeping me going... My wonderful docs gave me a difficult birthday present last weekend... The big "C" don't know where it originated from but it's there... So if I seem a bit loopy or forgetful please understand, this is a temporary situation and I will beat it eventually and we caught it early I've been told...

 

So please bear with me as I beat this thing... The doc seems real confidant that once they identify it they can kill it...

 

Thank you all and keep the suggestions and reminders coming, they are a big help in keeping me ontrack...

[Javlin]

Oh EG I found it easier to leave the tailplanes off till the very end helped with decal placement in that area also.

[Egilman]

Thanks Jav, I've broken way too many off in the past and the recurve of the fuselage into the horizontal stabilizer is a major headache... Yep, much easier to put them on last...

[mtaylor]

Not liking that diagnosis, EG, but the feedback from the doc is good news.  I hope all goes well and yes, modeling can help by taking your mind off the problems and give some mental relief.    The silver beast is looking good at this point and you seem to have it under control.

[Edwardkenway]

I'm with Mark on that news, I hope everything goes well for you brother 🙏 

[Jack12477]

Ditto from me also, EG.  

[Old Collingwood]

And from me aswel brother.

 

OC.

[Danstream]

Although clearly we have never met, your post stroke me. I hope everything will go well. Give credit to what the doctor said and try to keep up your spirit. Anytime you want playing with our toys, we will be here to have a good talk and to listen to you.

I want to see your handsome silver Sabre finished!

Take care,

Dan

[lmagna]

Nice progress on the Sabre EG.

 

Not so happy about the RL news. But if it helps a little we have faced it in our house three times now and made it out the other side each time with my wife. I have no idea what kind you are facing and some types and their treatment can be physically taxing, but ALL of them are emotionally debilitating. My wife's best friend has also faced it and making a long story short she ended up loosing most of her lower body inside to surgery. Even though she will always have issues and complications she now leads a VERY active an full life. Don't know if it is of value but our prayers are with you for nothing but the best.

 

Please keep all here advised, I do know that it helps when you share a little.

[king derelict]

3 hours ago, Danstream said:

Although clearly we have never met, your post stroke me. I hope everything will go well. Give credit to what the doctor said and try to keep up your spirit. Anytime you want playing with our toys, we will be here to have a good talk and to listen to you.

I want to see your handsome silver Sabre finished!

Take care,

Dan

Everything Dan said. I look forward to a steady stream of high quality reference information from you for many years ahead. And I wat to learn how to do the metal finish for my Vampires

Alan

[Egilman]

5 hours ago, mtaylor said:

Not liking that diagnosis, EG, but the feedback from the doc is good news.  I hope all goes well and yes, modeling can help by taking your mind off the problems and give some mental relief.    The silver beast is looking good at this point and you seem to have it under control.

Thank you Mark, it was a rude awakening for me, but the Oncologist seems very optimistic with the outcome... Like this is no sweat... I'm hoping I'm reading him right...

5 hours ago, Edwardkenway said:

I'm with Mark on that news, I hope everything goes well for you brother 🙏 

Thanks Ed....

4 hours ago, Jack12477 said:

Ditto from me also, EG.  

Thanks Jack.

4 hours ago, Old Collingwood said:

And from me aswel brother.

 

OC.

You too OC... Thank You!

3 hours ago, Danstream said:

Although clearly we have never met, your post stroke me. I hope everything will go well. Give credit to what the doctor said and try to keep up your spirit. Anytime you want playing with our toys, we will be here to have a good talk and to listen to you.

I want to see your handsome silver Sabre finished!

Take care,

Dan

I have high hopes Dan, I intend to keep on keeping on... maybe a bit slower, but I'm not going to quit that's for sure...

24 minutes ago, lmagna said:

Nice progress on the Sabre EG.

 

Not so happy about the RL news. But if it helps a little we have faced it in our house three times now and made it out the other side each time with my wife. I have no idea what kind you are facing and some types and their treatment can be physically taxing, but ALL of them are emotionally debilitating. My wife's best friend has also faced it and making a long story short she ended up loosing most of her lower body inside to surgery. Even though she will always have issues and complications she now leads a VERY active an full life. Don't know if it is of value but our prayers are with you for nothing but the best.

 

Please keep all here advised, I do know that it helps when you share a little.

Thanks Lou, Prayers are welcome, with the big guy on my side how can I not survive this... Right now the Admiral is taking it harder than I am... such is life...  I debated for three days wether I wanted to mention it or not, thought I would cause there was a few time I was a bit loopy and wanted to make sure I didn't say something stupid cause of the drugs I now have to take for the pain, they work well as long as I am consistent with them... I'm glad it's working for your family and friends, it makes it easier to believe there is a longer term outlook... I will survive this...

 

Thanks everyone, I don't want to turn this away from it's purpose, but I thought it would be better if you all knew just in case... your support will be a great help as we get this figured out...

 

Onwards with life, onward with the build...

 

Update in a few...

[Egilman]

1 minute ago, king derelict said:

Everything Dan said. I look forward to a steady stream of high quality reference information from you for many years ahead. And I wat to learn how to do the metal finish for my Vampires

Alan

Thank you Alan,

No problem, I'll get there sooner rather than later... I'm glad your finding my little experiments useful... It makes it worth it....

[Egilman]

Short update,

 

Filling the gap... well I showed you why I needed to cut off the center fuselage tail from the wing, when I heat bent the wing adding the dihedral it shrank the fuselage tail about a 1/16th of an inch... (accurately measured, not as bad as it first looked) My cut was a little off (crooked)

So I straightened the gap using my knife and created a flat to glue filling strips to... .060 = 4 .015 strips I laid them in like this...

Gluing each successively and using my tiny scissors I trimmed them close as each one dry...

Once they were all glued and dry I test fitted the wing to make sure the joint is filled and tight...

That works, a solid block of plastic once sanded smooth a skim of Mr Surfacer 1000  and I should be good to go...

A lot easier than it initially looked...

 

Onwards...

 

Next up checking the wing root gaps....