Licorne 1755 by mtaylor - 3/16" scale - French Frigate - from Hahn plans - Version 2.0 - TERMINATED

[tadheus]

Mark,

 

 

 

 

Pawel

[G. Delacroix]

Hello,

 

In French construction in the eighteenth century, the fitting of orderly end of plank was not practiced. And for two reasons:

- it would be wasteful to cut a beautiful plank for a simple aesthetic reason

- the longer the plank is, the better the deck strength is.

 

As a result, the end of plank are positioned randomly, placed on the nearest beam but avoiding placing a joint with less than three or four plank on the same beam.

 

 

GD

[vossiewulf]

Gerard, thanks. Could you estimate the average length of deck planks?

[G. Delacroix]

The length of the planking parts, whether for the hull or the decks, must be between 22 and 50 French feet or 7.15 to 16.25 m. depending on the location on the framework and the availability in the wooden parks of the arsenals

 

GD

Edited February 20, 2017 by G. Delacroix

[vossiewulf]

Thanks Gerard!

 

Crap! I'm threadjacking! AGAIN! AAAAUUGGGH

 

(still screaming as disappears over horizon)

[mtaylor]

Thank you Gerard.  That does explain what I saw on the various plans.

[mtaylor]

"Well... this is a fine mess I've gotten myself into, Ollie.....  " -Stan Laurel

 

I finally got the pictures off the camera, sized.  These are as she sits right now and for the last 2 days.   The information from Gerard gives me pause and some deep thought.   Right now, I'm wondering if I can "fix" this such that the planking butts are random without causing undo harm to the beams, my sanity, etc.

 

 

The catch is the quarterdeck ends just after the main mast.   I could random butt joint from here forward as the butt joints where the cannon and mastershipwright are would not be seen from above but the ones at the main mast area will be visible.  Forward, the butt joints show up well before the forecastle so they'd be out in the open also.   There are ladders, ship's boats, and cannon in the open area between quarter and foredeck but not enough "things" to hide the joints.

 

I'm going to think this through and fiddle with the drawings and if I think I can pull this off (maybe strip back some of the planks) and make it "random" I will.   i'll try to salvage as much of the planks as I can since I already have the rest of the gundeck planks cut and hate the idea of tossing them all out.  If I can't.... I'll just have to go with what I have.

 

Any thoughts, advice, etc. will be considered and appreciated.

 

Anyway... pictures.    The dummy cannon is being used to see if there's any problem with gunports and decking.  So far, so good, or so I thought.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CaptainSteve]

Mark.

Would it help to hide some of the existing butt joints by filling the gaps with a little glue and sanding them over ?? Then you could create additional joints in other locations by artificially scoring the joints with an Exacto.

[mtaylor]

I'm thinking that might work, Steve.  I'll run some tests.   If the existing butt joints can be minimized, that would be a solution.

[BANYAN]

Mark, what about taking a bit off the ends of a few of the after runs (the amount equal to a beam separation distance).  If done at random, would this not generate the staggered butt pattern?  I am assuming the planks are only dry fitted though?

 

cheers

 

Pat

[Greg the peg leg sailor]

G'day Mark

This might be an assistance to you! When I was doing research in lumber size for my Endeavour, I found out that the decking lengths were a maximum of 22 feet.

This was England where trees were becoming very short in supply. This is why Australia was so important with our high hardwood trees and a huge amount.

I guess France had a larger amount of trees because of the size compare to England.

Good luck mate and havagooday

Greg

[mtaylor]

Mark, what about taking a bit off the ends of a few of the after runs (the amount equal to a beam separation distance).  If done at random, would this not generate the staggered butt pattern?  I am assuming the planks are only dry fitted though?

 

cheers

 

Pat

 

Ah... nope.  The planks are glued into place and as each section is finished, I've been lightly sanding them to check the joints.  

 

G'day Mark

This might be an assistance to you! When I was doing research in lumber size for my Endeavour, I found out that the decking lengths were a maximum of 22 feet.

This was England where trees were becoming very short in supply. This is why Australia was so important with our high hardwood trees and a huge amount.

I guess France had a larger amount of trees because of the size compare to England.

Good luck mate and havagooday

Greg

 

That's true of the English ships for a given time period.   American went a bit longer as I recall.  The lengths on the French deck planking were a surprise to me as is the random placement.

 

 

Back to thinking and pondering... and occasionally turning the air blue..... 

[mtaylor]

Thanks for the commets, the likes, and the ideas. 

After some thought, it's now deconstruction and construction time.  I figure if I'm not going to do it right, then don't do it at all.  In the first picture, you can see where I'm ripping up the deck back aways.  There's also the most inboard strake laying on the beams forward.   I'll redraw, re-cut, and install one strake at a time on each side and follow Gerard's drawing and attempt the "random" bits as to plank length.  I think this will be the best way and definitely interesting from my point of view. 

 

Just for kicks and grins, here's the laser cutting those first planks. 

 

Feel free, as always, to jump in and point out errors or misconceptions.  This is a journey...

 

[Greg the peg leg sailor]

G'day Mark 

The Death Star Mark IV make it easier for you, but I think it is still bloody hard. It must be a real brain strain.

Looking great though. 

Havagooday my mate 

Greg 

[cog]

As Greg wrote Death Star, that Mark IV will certainly make it easier! Such a pitty, all those planks ruined, whole forests ripped asunder for naught. You need a hand demolishing? Enough pulling at legs ... you did make the right decision, I know you don't make these lightly. It will certainly work out to your advantage, a real French deck.

Cheers

[mtaylor]

10 hours ago, gregchard said:

G'day Mark 

The Death Star Mark IV make it easier for you, but I think it is still bloody hard. It must be a real brain strain.

Looking great though. 

Greg 

 

It's a brain strain, Greg.  But it's also learning which is good.  I think I got the random part figured out on the planking butts but we'll see.  I'm also sorting out dropblanks and those hook scarfs at the bow (I think it's "hook scarfs") figured out   

 

 

9 hours ago, cog said:

As Greg wrote Death Star, that Mark IV will certainly make it easier! Such a pitty, all those planks ruined, whole forests ripped asunder for naught. You need a hand demolishing? Enough pulling at legs ... you did make the right decision, I know you don't make these lightly. It will certainly work out to your advantage, a real French deck.

Cheers

 

No hands... maybe a battle axe might work.    I think this is the right thing to do as I'm learning something new and new ways of doing things.

[Greg the peg leg sailor]

G'day Mark 

I just thought of something and this is a big assumption. I would assume that the French would only use boards roughly the same size for aesthetics reasons. I don't think that they would use a 22 feet next to a 40 feet next to a 25 feet and so on. To me that would look like a "dog's breakfast".

I know if you assume, you make an *** out of u and me.

Havagooday mate 

Greg 

[mtaylor]

Greg, looking at the drawing Gerard attached... yes, they did use variable lengths and next to each other.  It appears they used the longest "suitable" planks.   I taking that to mean that if they a 50 foot long plank and needed a 22 foot, they find a 22 foot rather than cut the 50 foot one.  For strength, yes, longest available.  I'm still sorting it out and re-examining the drawings I have for inspiration.

[SawdustDave]

I feel for you Mark, having just removed a large area of planks already glued in place on my current build.
I'm blown away with learning that they actually used planks as long as fifty feet.  Never realized that such lengths could have been achieved in that time.
Beautiful work as always.

 

Dave

[Greg the peg leg sailor]

4 minutes ago, SawdustDave said:

Never realized that such lengths could have been achieved in that time.
Beautiful work as always.

 

Dave

I must agree with Dave. The craftmen in those days were amazing. 

Just imagine doing that with only hand tools.

Also drilling through 9 feet of keel timbers for joining the keel together with amazing accuracy. The true carpenters has now disappeared.

havagooday 

Greg 

[FriedClams]

Hi Mark,

 

I think it's a good call on the deck re-do - although a painful one.  It would have bugged you every time you looked at it.

 

Your model is looking great - beautiful workmanship.

 

Gary

[archjofo]

Hi Mark,

your work is admirable.

[vossiewulf]

Mark you really don't have to go to that extreme to make us new guys who go one step back for every one forward feel better  And I'm sorry, I know that must have been a serious ouch of a decision. But like others have said you'll feel much better once you know you have it 100% right.

[HIPEXEC]

Quote

Very nice work!

 

[popeye the sailor]

sorry to see your tear'in 'em up     you gotta be happy with it.........that what matters!

[druxey]

Well, more accomplished model-makers than you or I have done 're-do's' as well. We are in good company. And you'll feel much better every time you look at that deck later on. Courage, mon enfant!

[dvm27]

Druxey is certainly correct, Mark. I find that anguishing and deliberating over redoing a part takes more time than the actual repairs. My motto - when in doubt, rip it out! Of course that could explain why my models take so long to complete.

[mtaylor]

Thanks for the support with comments and likes.

 

I've become a believer that ripping things out and re-working them works best for me.  I can think of too many places on this ship that it was make, finesse, offer up and scrap box.  Some areas were pretty radical or seemed at the time, but worth it.... like those pesky stern transom timbers, etc. 

 

I ended up taking up more of the planking than I originally thought.   Things just didn't look right on the drawing so....  ripped and redrew much of the planking.  I received a much needed re-supply of boxwood from Jason at Crown and was pleasantly surprised at how fast and how nice the wood is.

 

So... I did more research and staring at other people's models on the web for inspiration along with Frolich's book.  Seems to a bit of a pattern in that plank butts on one beam must have 2 strakes between them.  If possible 2 adjoining planks must have 2 beams between them.  But... there's the random factor.  So, had to think like shipwright in the yard and look at the pile of what was available. I took 5 planks varying from 25 feet to 50 feet in length and then randomly picked one up.  Drew it on the drawing and the repeated the process until the whole strake was cut and installed. Duplicated that strake for the other side.  Lather, rinse, and repeat as they, until done.  

 

There's some gaps that need attending to, but I'm sanding and scraping away.  Getting there....   The char on plank sides seems to be working out.  Just lightly sanded off the loose stuff.  In the pictures, the lighter "caulking" is where everything came together perfectly.   The black caulking still needs more sanding to get the fit flush.  There's a few areas that need some filling.  Overall, I'm pretty pleased with the deck.

 

Here's the pics....  as always, I'm open to discussion and learning.

 

 

 

[Eddie]

Coming along nicely there mate shes a beauty. I like the way you laser cut your own planks.

[gjdale]

Nicely done Mark. I've yet to meet a re-do that I haven't preferred to the original - so well worth the effort.