mtaylor Posted March 10, 2019 #1 Posted March 10, 2019 About the model: As they say, "No time like the present" and as I'm stalled on Licorne by several non-hobby issues, I'm starting this one to take my mind off things. I have the plans scaled down from 1:48 to 1:64 I'll be drafting plans for building the ship as the ANCRE monograph doesn't have drawings pre-made for such things a frames, keel, etc. As the title states it will be a POB build as there's next to nothing in the plans of the below deck area. I'm making decisions at this point will working on lofting the bulkheads, keel, etc. on the types of woods. Most likely I'll Swiss pear for the external planking, some ebony or ebony stained wood for the wales and other bits and pieces, boxwood for the keel, stern post, and bowspit. Not sure yet about the decks. As for the bulkheads and some internal bits that won't be seen, I'm deciding whether to use Baltic Birch plywood or Yellow Ceder. It may come down to cost on this though. I'll be using the DeathStar for at least marking the wood to be cut for the bulkheads but not ruling out cutting as that will depend on the wood selection. I selected this ship as "next" as it was the more famous of the ships involved in the battle that brought the French into American Revolutionary War. Here's the history of Belle Poule and some pictures of the plans and the monograph. La Belle Poule is a 12-pounder class of frigate with 26 12-pdrs on the gun deck and 10 6-pdrs on the forecastle and sterncastle. History: La Belle Poule was built in the shipyard at Bordeaux starting in 1765 and launched in 1767. \ From 1772 to 1776, she was on hydrographic missions around India. She returned to Brest in 1776 . At the time, France wasn't engaged in War, but there were numerous incidents. April, 1777, Belle Poule was chased by a British ship of the line (unknown which one) and after evading her, returned to Brest. December, 1777, Belle Poule transported Silas Deane back to America along with the news of the French-American Alliance. On 7 January, 1778, she was stopped by two Britich ships of the line which demanded to inspect her and her Captian, Charles de Bernard de Marigny replied: "I am the Belle Poule, frigate of the King of France; I sail from sea and I sail to sea. Vessels of the King, my master, never allow inspections." 17 June, 1778. The famous battle between Belle Poule and Arethusa occurred which was actually celebrated by both countries. It was this battle that brought France into the American Revolutionary War. Note that Licorne was captured by the British. After this battle, she did numerous patrols. 14 July 1780. Belle Poule was overhauled and after a two hour battle with Noncuch (64), she surrendered. Feburary, 1781. Belle Poule was commissioned by the British. She participated in the Battle of Dogger Bank later that year. A footnote is that her Master during this period was William Bligh. November 1782. Belle Poule went to ordinary and also served as a British recieving ship. 1801. She was sold off. Plans, etc. I'm using the following references: Le Belle Poule Monograh by Boudriot and Berti The Art of Ship Modeling by Frolich and lastly, the only build log I could find that actually is showing the process unlike most that just show the finished ship: https://5500.forumactif.org/t3216-la-belle-poule-de-1765-au-1-48-par-guydal Anyway, a bit long winded but I'll be back when I have my cut sheets, plans, etc. ready and start making sawdust. BETAQDAVE, capnharv2, dvm27 and 52 others 55 Quote Mark "The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me Current Build: Past Builds: La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD Triton Cross-Section NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64 Non-Ship Model: On hold, maybe forever: CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)
MEDDO Posted March 10, 2019 #2 Posted March 10, 2019 Looking forward to your progress. mtaylor, Canute, BETAQDAVE and 3 others 6 Quote Michael Shipwrights of Ohio Current Build: ... Completed Builds: Queen Anne Barge - Syren, Pinnace - MS, Halifax 1768 - LSS, Murrelet - Pygmy, Swift 1805 - AL
vossiewulf Posted March 10, 2019 #3 Posted March 10, 2019 She should be very pretty with the radical French hull form. Wasn't this one of the non-Sané designs? I seem to remember there was one guy who particularly favored the angular hull forms. I have Boudriot's book on French frigates, I should go look it up. Slowbrain, mtaylor, popeye the sailor and 2 others 5 Quote Building HM Cutter Lady Nelson 1:64
shipmodel Posted March 10, 2019 #4 Posted March 10, 2019 Pulling up a chair myself. Dan mtaylor, Canute, Old Collingwood and 3 others 6 Quote Current build -Khufu solar barge, c. 2,560 BCE, a cross-section model at 1:10 scale Prior scratch builds - Royal yacht Henrietta, USS Monitor, USS Maine, HMS Pelican, SS America, SS Rex, SS Uruguay, Viking knarr, Gokstad ship, Thames River Skiff , USS Oneida, Swan 42 racing yacht, Queen Anne's Revenge (1710), SS Andrea Doria (1952), SS Michelangelo (1962) , Queen Anne's Revenge (2nd model) USS/SS Leviathan (1914), James B Colgate (1892), POW bone model (circa 1800) restoration, SS Mayaguez (c.1975) Prior kit builds - AL Dallas, Mamoli Bounty. Bluejacket America, North River Diligence, Airfix Sovereign of the Seas "Take big bites. Moderation is for monks." Robert A. Heinlein
gjdale Posted March 10, 2019 #5 Posted March 10, 2019 Okay - just made it in time for a front row seat! Canute, popeye the sailor, Old Collingwood and 2 others 5 Quote Grant ____________________________________________________ Current builds: African Queen - Radio Control / Live Steam Previous builds: The Shipyard at Foss' Landing (Diorama), Hannah - Ship in a Bottle, NRG Capstan Project, 1869 Allerton Steam Pumper, Medway Longboat , Alfa Romeo Spider Gran Touring (Pocher) , Da Vinci Flying Machine, 1949 Chris Craft 19' Racing Runabout - Dumas - Radio, Bomb Vessel Granado, 1742 - Cross Section - Scratchbuild, HMS Victory (Mamoli 1:90), Cutty Sark, Armed Pinnace, Bounty, Santa Maria At another place: Stephenson's Rocket (OcCre 1:24) (click the title to follow the link) In the Gallery: Lancia Armata 1803, Bomb Vessel Granada, 1742 Cross Section, 1949 Chris Craft 19' Racing Runabout
Jack12477 Posted March 10, 2019 #6 Posted March 10, 2019 Me too ! BETAQDAVE, mtaylor, Old Collingwood and 3 others 6 Quote Jack "No one is as smart as all of us" - Is ón cheann a thagann an cheird The craft comes from the head --------------------------------------------- Current build: US Constellation Non-ship builds: USCG UH-65A Dolphin M16 Multi-gun motor carriage diorama M4A3 Sherman Tanks dioramas 1936-1939 Mercedes Benz 540K 1934 Rolls-Royce Phantom II JSDF Light Armor Vehicle Figures: The Last Bridge: Raider Reaper Edge of Universe: Ianis The Last Bridge: Vadim with cart Completed build log(s): 18th Century Longboat , Marie Jeanne, Willie L Bennett 1888 50 ft Gaff-rigged Ice Yacht Scratch Build The Sullivans (DD 537) Liberty Ship SS John W Brown USS England (DE 635), Artesania Latina Titanic Lifeboat Gallery: Swift , Armed Virginia Sloop, Santisima Trinidad Captain's Launch , 18th Century Longboat , Marie Jeanne Other: Rhinebeck Aerodrome Tour
Michel Bénard Posted March 10, 2019 #7 Posted March 10, 2019 Very nice boat, good luck for build. Canute, BETAQDAVE, Old Collingwood and 2 others 5 Quote
Gaetan Bordeleau Posted March 10, 2019 #8 Posted March 10, 2019 Very nice introduction. I am sure that this model will be a pleasure to build. mtaylor, BETAQDAVE, popeye the sailor and 3 others 6 Quote
John Allen Posted March 10, 2019 #9 Posted March 10, 2019 Mark, A lowbrow like myself enjoyed the very informative brief intro. Will not surrender my seat on this one. Old Collingwood, Canute, BETAQDAVE and 3 others 6 Quote John Allen Current builds HMS Victory-Mamoli On deck USS Tecumseh, CSS Hunley scratch build, Double hull Polynesian canoe (Holakea) scratch build Finished Waka Taua Maori War Canoe, Armed Launch-Panart, Diligence English Revenue Cutter-Marine Model Co.
Martes Posted March 10, 2019 #10 Posted March 10, 2019 Be careful with those plans! I tried to use them when making my little 3d model, and fallen for the fact that side and forward/back views show different gunport height, for example. And also they are somewhat different from "as taken" plan from NMM. So it can be a source of headache. Canute, Piet, popeye the sailor and 8 others 11 Quote
Canute Posted March 10, 2019 #11 Posted March 10, 2019 Mark, I'm in, also. Looks like a pretty barky. Old Collingwood, mtaylor and popeye the sailor 3 Quote Ken Started: MS Bounty Longboat, On Hold: Heinkel USS Choctaw paper Down the road: Shipyard HMC Alert 1/96 paper, Mamoli Constitution Cross, MS USN Picket Boat #1 Scratchbuild: Echo Cross Section Member Nautical Research Guild
FriedClams Posted March 11, 2019 #12 Posted March 11, 2019 Interesting subject Mark - I will be following. Gary popeye the sailor, BETAQDAVE, KORTES and 3 others 6 Quote Current Build Pelican Eastern-Rig Dragger Completed Scratch Builds Rangeley Guide Boat New England Stonington Dragger 1940 Auto Repair Shop Mack FK Shadowbox
mtaylor Posted March 11, 2019 Author #13 Posted March 11, 2019 Thanks for the like and comments. 14 hours ago, Martes said: Be careful with those plans! I tried to use them when making my little 3d model, and fallen for the fact that side and forward/back views show different gunport height, for example. And also they are somewhat different from "as taken" plan from NMM. So it can be a source of headache. The plans have already given me a headache.... no plans on the knee of the head. I've had to research the French, German, and Russian sites which is entertaining as I don't speak or read those languages but Google came to the rescue. I now have a drawing in work for that. After that will be the false keel along with the keel itself and sternpost. Might as well jump in with both feet. The side view seems to be correct when compared against the NMM plans so I'll work with those and sort everything else out as I go. So far, so good. It's been frustrating researching but rewarding. FriedClams, EricWilliamMarshall, BETAQDAVE and 11 others 14 Quote Mark "The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me Current Build: Past Builds: La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD Triton Cross-Section NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64 Non-Ship Model: On hold, maybe forever: CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)
Jaager Posted March 11, 2019 #14 Posted March 11, 2019 Drafting gun ports must be boring, subject to lapses in precision, and more than a few plans have some of them as inconsistent in their pattern. When lofting, I pick a port at midship and develop a gauge/jig for the the distance of the sill and lentil from the underside of deck planking/top of deck beams. I add the thickness of the sill and lentil timbers to size the opening. I use this gauge for the rest of the ports, rather than using the profile to determine gun port height,. Transferring the data to a card and installing the beams before finishing the ports gets the slope of the sill parallel to the deck for each. Piet, Old Collingwood, popeye the sailor and 3 others 6 Quote NRG member 50 years Current: NMS HMS Ajax 1767 - 74-gun 3rd rate - 1:192 POF exploration - works but too intense -no margin for error HMS Centurion 1732 - 60-gun 4th rate - POF Navall Timber framing HMS Beagle 1831 refiit 10-gun brig with a small mizzen - POF Navall (ish) Timber framing The U.S. Ex. Ex. 1838-1842 Flying Fish 1838 pilot schooner - POF framed - ready for stern timbers Porpose II 1836 brigantine/brig - POF framed - ready for hawse and stern timbers Vincennes 1825 Sloop-of-War - POF timbers assembled, need shaping Peacock 1828 Sloop-of -War - POF timbers ready for assembly Sea Gull 1838 pilot schooner - POF timbers ready for assembly Relief 1835 packet hull USN ship - POF timbers ready for assembly Other Portsmouth 1843 Sloop-of-War - POF timbers ready for assembly Le Commerce de Marseilles 1788 118 cannons - POF framed La Renommee 1744 Frigate - POF framed - ready for hawse and stern timbers
pontiachedmark Posted March 11, 2019 #15 Posted March 11, 2019 (edited) Gidday Mark. I will be following your progress and if possible offer support along the way. On the contrary I found your intro interesting and informative. I can certainly empathise re understanding languages. I will be awaiting your problem solving in what promises to be a challenging build, at least in the beginning. I wish you all the best in your endeavours. Mark. Edited March 13, 2019 by pontiachedmark Rectify spelling popeye the sailor, Canute, Old Collingwood and 4 others 7 Quote
mtaylor Posted March 11, 2019 Author #16 Posted March 11, 2019 First hurdle leaped and landed.... I think. The knee of the head. See pics below. Note that they have been distorted a bit for "security" reasons. I won't be detailing every drawing, but just to give an idea and see if anyone thinks I'm on the wrong track. The first drawings show what I had as source and what I drew. The exploded view is food for the DeathStar. I'll move the bits and pieces around for the most efficient (and to take the grain into consideration) use of the wood. Next up will be the keel, false keel for mounting the bulkheads, and the stern post. Should be fun.... Elijah, pontiachedmark, EricWilliamMarshall and 28 others 31 Quote Mark "The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me Current Build: Past Builds: La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD Triton Cross-Section NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64 Non-Ship Model: On hold, maybe forever: CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)
druxey Posted March 11, 2019 #17 Posted March 11, 2019 Looks good, but I thought that the 'hook' for the main stay collar was a rounded off rather than angle-tenon shaped. mtaylor, Old Collingwood, Canute and 3 others 6 Quote Be sure to sign up for an epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series http://trafalgar.tv
Martes Posted March 11, 2019 #18 Posted March 11, 2019 7 hours ago, mtaylor said: The side view seems to be correct when compared against the NMM The side view is OK, problems start with hull lines, planking thickness and fore/aft external views. popeye the sailor, Canute, Old Collingwood and 1 other 4 Quote
src Posted March 11, 2019 #19 Posted March 11, 2019 (edited) Wow Mark, a crowded room already. Fortunately there is still room in the second row. Sam Edited March 11, 2019 by src Old Collingwood, popeye the sailor, CaptainSteve and 3 others 6 Quote Current Build Constructo Enterprise
Jack H Posted March 11, 2019 #20 Posted March 11, 2019 Hello I remember you have studied Belle Poule in another post? Of course you have good drawings of Ancre now. I happened to see a draught of NMM, the text of ' 1810 ...As taken off...' was marked on it. I don't know if it means that the drawing was drawn in 1810, but it was when she was captured. Jack Old Collingwood, EricWilliamMarshall, Archi and 11 others 14 Quote
malachy Posted March 11, 2019 #21 Posted March 11, 2019 That's the Virginie-class La Belle Poule, launched in 1802. Not the same ship, hjx. The danish archives hold a copy of the original french body plan of the 1765 LBP, comparing that with the british 'as captured' plan might be worth the effort Canute, Jack H, Saburo and 13 others 16 Quote
Martes Posted March 11, 2019 #22 Posted March 11, 2019 (edited) 21 minutes ago, malachy said: original french body plan Does this include planking or not? I don't see characteristic steps, but then the French might have different drawing conventions... Edited March 11, 2019 by Martes mtaylor, Old Collingwood, popeye the sailor and 1 other 4 Quote
malachy Posted March 11, 2019 #23 Posted March 11, 2019 No planking and the breadth given is breadth moulded. By the way, the numbers on the right side give the distances between station lines. popeye the sailor, Old Collingwood, Martes and 3 others 6 Quote
ChrisLBren Posted March 11, 2019 #24 Posted March 11, 2019 Hi Mark, Congrats on your new build ! She's always been one of my favorite subjects. My friend Keith built this ship in your scale and drafted her in POF. http://i-am-modelist.com/2011/10/22/belle-poule/ Im sure he'd be happy to help - send me a PM if you want his contact info. Best, Chris mtaylor, Canute, popeye the sailor and 5 others 8 Quote
Gaetan Bordeleau Posted March 11, 2019 #25 Posted March 11, 2019 Keith was an active member in the first version of MSW. popeye the sailor, Old Collingwood, mtaylor and 1 other 4 Quote
Captain Poison Posted March 11, 2019 #26 Posted March 11, 2019 The wood is calling you again mate...good winds in this new project! src, mtaylor, popeye the sailor and 3 others 6 Quote Completed.... Charles W. Morgan,Sea Horse,USS Constitution,Virginia 1819,San Fransisco II, AL HMS Bounty 1:48 L'Herminione 1:96 Spanish Frigate,22 cannons 18th C. 1:35 scale.Scratch-built (Hull only) Cutter Cheefull 1806 1:48 (with modifications) Current Project: Orca (This is a 35" replica of the Orca boat from the movie Jaws)
mtaylor Posted March 12, 2019 Author #27 Posted March 12, 2019 Thanks for the likes and comments. I discovered that on Licorne, I messed up the knee of the head a bit but it's fixable. Making some progress on keel, and false keel but still flipping drawings back and forth to get answers. Seems the info isn't in one place but I consider that normal for any project. Now to the comments.... 13 hours ago, druxey said: Looks good, but I thought that the 'hook' for the main stay collar was a rounded off rather than angle-tenon shaped. That's true on the English (and maybe other countries) but the French seem to like doing some things differently. The upper edge seems to also support the bowspit. Here's a reference: 11 hours ago, Martes said: The side view is OK, problems start with hull lines, planking thickness and fore/aft external views. Those will be sorted. I saw one that's off but for the most part, I'm still reconciling the drawings (both NMM and ANCRE). There's a lot of cross referencing that needs sorting out between the various plan sheets. 8 hours ago, malachy said: The danish archives hold a copy of the original french body plan of the 1765 LBP, comparing that with the british 'as captured' plan might be worth the effort Thanks, I've printed it out and will be checking it out. I've heard the Danish have lots of these items but how did they acquire it? 7 hours ago, Martes said: Does this include planking or not? I don't see characteristic steps, but then the French might have different drawing conventions... There's one characteristic "step" about the same location on the hull as that on Licorne. The thinner planks come down to the lower end of the gun ports and then go to thicker ones. They then taper down from that to the keel. 4 hours ago, ChrisLBren said: Hi Mark, Congrats on your new build ! She's always been one of my favorite subjects. My friend Keith built this ship in your scale and drafted her in POF. http://i-am-modelist.com/2011/10/22/belle-poule/ Best, Chris I saw that one Chris but didn't make the connection. I remember Keith well. popeye the sailor, Elijah, Canute and 11 others 14 Quote Mark "The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me Current Build: Past Builds: La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD Triton Cross-Section NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64 Non-Ship Model: On hold, maybe forever: CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)
malachy Posted March 12, 2019 #28 Posted March 12, 2019 (edited) 42 minutes ago, mtaylor said: Thanks, I've printed it out and will be checking it out. I've heard the Danish have lots of these items but how did they acquire it? Through industrial espionage missions educational trips of their shipwright trainees. These were a part of the very thorough education danish naval engineers received on the way to the top post of fabrikmester (with tasks similiar to the british surveyor). For example, Frantz Hohlenberg travelled to France, England, the Netherlands, Italy and Sweden before he was recalled to Danemark. Quote There's one characteristic "step" about the same location on the hull as that on Licorne. Um, 'step'? The transition from 'normal' planking/diminishing strakes to the wales? Edited March 12, 2019 by malachy Old Collingwood, EricWilliamMarshall, popeye the sailor and 3 others 6 Quote
druxey Posted March 12, 2019 #29 Posted March 12, 2019 The illustration shows what I meant, Mark: the hook is more rounded than angular. Old Collingwood, Martin W, popeye the sailor and 1 other 4 Quote Be sure to sign up for an epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series http://trafalgar.tv
BenF89 Posted March 12, 2019 #30 Posted March 12, 2019 I’ll follow along, too! Sounds like an engaging research project. popeye the sailor, Old Collingwood, Canute and 1 other 4 Quote ~ Ben ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ Current Builds: 'Doll-Boat' - 1:12 scale 40' Cruising Sailboat S.S. Edmund Fitzgerald - 1:350 plastic kit w/ Photo Etch Parts (On Hold)
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