Chris Watton and Vanguard Models news and updates

[maaaslo]

Never tried boxwood, but would love one. Any chance to preorder one?

[uss frolick]

That Speedy looks lovely.

 

Returning to Indefatigable, note that according to historian William James, a contemporary source to be trusted, she mounted eighteen 42-pounders plus two long twelves on her spar deck when she engaged the Virginie . This would have affected the shapes of the ports and might have necessitated a planking up of the forecastle bulwarks.

 

A very complete set of plans survives of Cochranes HMS Imperious, 38, as fitted , which includes detailed drawings of her bust-head and her stern carvings in 1/2 inch scale.

[ASAT]

Chris, I just looked at the Amati Victory thread and the construction photos, you have said that Bristol will be a similar design, I was wondering if you are planning on having a complete gun deck on her or are you planning to use  dummy guns on the gun deck? In awe of your Victory design and resulting beautiful model BTW.....

[chris watton]

13 hours ago, uss frolick said:

That Speedy looks lovely.

 

Returning to Indefatigable, note that according to historian William James, a contemporary source to be trusted, she mounted eighteen 42-pounders plus two long twelves on her spar deck when she engaged the Virginie . This would have affected the shapes of the ports and might have necessitated a planking up of the forecastle bulwarks.

 

A very complete set of plans survives of Cochranes HMS Imperious, 38, as fitted , which includes detailed drawings of her bust-head and her stern carvings in 1/2 inch scale.

Thank you. I know carronade ports were longer (vertically) than the standard carriage guns, and in the earlier days, they tended to avoid the channel/shroud areas due to the short muzzles of the carronades. I really do not want to 'berth up' the forecastle though, unless there is compelling evidence it was in fact berthed up (and in truth, it probably was). I think the lower forecastle with timberheads looks a lot nicer.

 

Regarding Imperieuse (captured 1804, formerly Medea), have you link to the figurehead and stern, as all I can find is the main line drawings (just side and frames)?

36 minutes ago, ASAT said:

Chris, I just looked at the Amati Victory thread and the construction photos, you have said that Bristol will be a similar design, I was wondering if you are planning on having a complete gun deck on her or are you planning to use  dummy guns on the gun deck? In awe of your Victory design and resulting beautiful model BTW.....

I have stated before that none of my kits will have dummy barrels, and I have already had the master 24 and 12 pounder cannon barrels 3-d printed and cast (these will be black resin). The gun port frames will be integrated into the bulkheads as Victory (and the French Hermione and Bellona I did). This will always be the case for those models that allow for such designs, as all guesswork on the part of the modeller is eliminated. I have never been a strong believer in having to mark out and cut the gun port openings after planking the hull, it assumes too much of the modeller,  having paid a lot for a model kit.

 

ETA - I have noticed most of my customers are from the US, I must think about doing a nice big 64th scale US frigate in future..

Edited September 25, 2019 by chris watton

[Malcolm Greig]

What about the CSS Alabama for an idea?? Great example of sail/steam transition era, maybe a welcome change of pace for you Chris?? Might be a hit with the larger US market??

 

Malcolm

[chris watton]

1 minute ago, Malcolm Greig said:

What about the CSS Alabama for an idea?? Great example of sail/steam transition era, maybe a welcome change of pace for you Chris?? Might be a hit with the larger US market??

 

Malcolm

Nice idea, but I have little interest in steam. If I do a US subject, due to the amount of time and money required for the development, it needs to be very well known, popular, and detailed. Three masts and no funnel. But this is in the future, I have another five kits lined up before that.

[uss frolick]

Hi Chris! I have the complete set for Imperious. PM me your email, and I'll take photos tomorrow and send them to you. I have to find the right roll in my plan-closet first!

 

As for American subjects, the large flush decked ship-sloops of 1812-war beg to be made into kits: Wasp, Hornet, Peacock, Frolic, Wasp II, Saratoga. They are well documented, have battle credits, their carvings are at a tasteful minimum, and the wheel, boats, bitts, fife-rails, guns, etc., are on one open, easily accessible deck.

 

 

 

 

[ccoyle]

42 minutes ago, uss frolick said:

As for American subjects, the large flush decked ship-sloops of 1812-war beg to be made into kits: Wasp, Hornet, Peacock, Frolic, Wasp II, Saratoga. They are well documented, have battle credits, their carvings are at a tasteful minimum, and the wheel, boats, bitts, fife-rails, guns, etc., are on one open, easily accessible deck.

Amen to that suggestion!

 

Plus, I do not think you could go wrong with a matched set of Chesapeake and Shannon: famous ships, famous captains, famous engagement, appeals to both sides of the pond. neither ship already available in kit form. Go for it!

[Vane]

I hope Chris dont mind me reposting one of his photos of the construction of the Amati Victory. In comparison with the 20 year old HMS Diana kit, just look how he have reinvented kitdesign. 

 

Yes I agree fully that the cutting out gunports are one of the tasks that would really benefit from being simplified. 

 

 

 

[ASAT]

Vane, that is exactly why I quit buying kits, it seemed to be a lot of money for something I could cut myself if I had the plans but Chris’s new designs are a refreshing departure from that era and I believe the value of these new designs is readily apparent. Vanguard Models are taking advantage of the current technology and the results speak for themselves, their lack of compromise is creating a new standard that is long overdue and I foresee huge success and a new renaissance being ushered in by VM as the market adjusts to their leadership.

[James H]

1 hour ago, Vane said:

Yes I agree fully that the cutting out gunports are one of the tasks that would really benefit from being simplified. 

 

Incorporating them into frames and bulkheads is genius. No templates or guesswork. 

 

An extract from Chris's original Amati Victory manual:

[hollowneck]

Well stated, Lou.

Chris has correctly judged that there are ship modelers who recognize how his design (and quality materials) improvements have substantially "upped the game" for kits.

 

Thanks again, James: your pics do a good job of telling the new story. It's no small coincidence that Amati has reacted rather quickly to Chris' new venture...

 

Ron

[chris watton]

Thanks guys!

 

I did look into utilising the gun port framing for Speedy, but it would have left the bulwark sides too thick, being planked both sides. I could have reduced the thickness of the bulkheads above deck level, but we're talking less than 2mm thick, coupled with the fact that the horizontal;l and vertical frames need to slot into each other, meaning the thickness in the slotted areas would be around 1mm. This tolerance would be intolerable (!). I would get so many complaints and/or requests for replacement broken parts. So, the gun port/bulwark patterns are laser cut in ply, much stronger and safer in this instance, and better for scale appearance once they are planked inside and out.

 

Bristol and all larger kits will have the new gun port designs incorporated into the hull framing, however. I did this for a 72nd development of Hermione around three years' ago, quite an enjoyable and easy build.. 

[shortgrass]

Kit looks awesome Chris.  I do admire the professionalism (such a word ???) and effort you put in to making up these kits.  I look forward to purchasing some of these kits.  Liked the Alert but must say the Speedy is really attractive and am leaning towards that kit.

[chris watton]

1 hour ago, shortgrass said:

Kit looks awesome Chris.  I do admire the professionalism (such a word ???) and effort you put in to making up these kits.  I look forward to purchasing some of these kits.  Liked the Alert but must say the Speedy is really attractive and am leaning towards that kit.

Thank you! I guess I do it because a large part of it is love of the hobby and the look of the ships when complete and want to continue sharing in my enthusiasm. I think I mentioned before, but I haven't taken out a single penny from my kit sales, it all goes back into new and continuing developments (hence the day job..)

 

Today I have been putting the Speedy 50x70cm plans together, still loads of work to do, mainly text using Adobe Illustrator and InDesign. from what I can tell, there will 10 sheets of 50x70cm plans (6 for masts, yard and rigging, one for full size hull and deck profiles, and 3 for laser and PE full size parts) and quite a thick colour manual in A4 format (a little more manageable..). Still so much to do all seems quite a way off from seeing the light at the end of the tunnel..

[jeff shreve]

Really like your delving into this Chris. Have the Alert and looking forward to more. I also would like to see some American subjects from around the 1812  or revolutionary war era. Seams most of what are around are more advanced semi scratch like Alfred and Oliver Cromwell. Beyond my abilities.  How about an accurate Surprise? are any kits available of it really based on the ship or just "close".  You could take a working vacation to San Diego if needed for inspection of it, or do a kit of the Rose it is supposed to be!

[chris watton]

9 hours ago, jeff shreve said:

Really like your delving into this Chris. Have the Alert and looking forward to more. I also would like to see some American subjects from around the 1812  or revolutionary war era. Seams most of what are around are more advanced semi scratch like Alfred and Oliver Cromwell. Beyond my abilities.  How about an accurate Surprise? are any kits available of it really based on the ship or just "close".  You could take a working vacation to San Diego if needed for inspection of it, or do a kit of the Rose it is supposed to be!

Thank you!

 

I think the US (or any) ships from the 1770's are much better looking, having very pleasing rakes and curves, but the later ships are more well known, and the brigs always look nice anyway. I love the Oliver Cromwell thread, that is a lovely looking model.

I did design a Surprise for Amati, and that isn't on my future projects lists, but many other frigates are. I want to avoid developing subjects I have already done or subjects that have already had a kit made for them - unless I can add to that subject in a unique way.

 

Still plodding on with the plan sheets, I always forget how much of a time sink the plans and instructions are. However, presentation is important, and I do not include my development time in with kit prices, so no big deal. It's funny, when I am working all week, both on my kit projects and day job, I look forward to the weekend so I can spend all my time on the kits. but when the weekend comes, I feel so drained that it's difficult to concentrate..

 

I am negotiating with my pear and boxwood supplier for the possibility of pear sheet for the laser cut parts. I am awaiting a price. I would dearly love to include this material for the laser cut wood parts rather than the anaemic looking limewood, but it is all dependant of cost. It may well be too much, but worth an ask. If it is acceptable, this would go into my third kit, as Speedy is being laser cut as I type (as far as I know..)

[Edwardkenway]

On 9/25/2019 at 1:40 PM, ccoyle said:

Amen to that suggestion!

 

Plus, I do not think you could go wrong with a matched set of Chesapeake and Shannon: famous ships, famous captains, famous engagement, appeals to both sides of the pond. neither ship already available in kit form. Go for it!

I like this idea Chris. I for one would definitely buy a Shannon kit as I fondly remember a very small scale Airfix model of the Shannon I had as a kid.

So to echo Mr CCoyle "go for it "

[chris watton]

8 minutes ago, Edwardkenway said:

I like this idea Chris. I for one would definitely buy a Shannon kit as I fondly remember a very small scale Airfix model of the Shannon I had as a kid.

So to echo Mr CCoyle "go for it "

It is a nice idea, and if things work out, I would do a Leda class 38. For now though, I already have 4 frigates lined up, including an earlier 38, three of them because of their fame and commanders, and one because it is just so damned nice looking.

I never knew Airfix did a Shannon!

[VTHokiEE]

Chris - Partly due to the thread on the Athenian trireme and partly because I love that era of history I keep staring at the Roman warship image on your website. Is that a kit, or what is the story behind it? It’s an awesome looking ship.

 

Tim

[chris watton]

8 minutes ago, VTHokiEE said:

Chris - Partly due to the thread on the Athenian trireme and partly because I love that era of history I keep staring at the Roman warship image on your website. Is that a kit, or what is the story behind it? It’s an awesome looking ship.

 

Tim

I absolutely loved the development of that Roman quinquereme (being an avid fan of ancient history, and of the Rome:Total War games..). The research was quite long but very enjoyable. It was developed for a magazine part work model (like around 80% of my work in the latter days). I used researched modern drawings along with contemporary paintings and pictures of parts of wrecks (the ram was directly copied from a photo taken of one recovered from a Roman warship). the artillery was also painstakingly researched for the correct period. It was modelled on a late republic/early empire era vessel, as I was not sure if what era they would want. Unfortunalty, when I have completed these part work developments, I no longer know what happens to then, or what sales are like. I finish them, and then never hear about them ever again, all I have is the picture I had taken whilst building the prototypes (and the CAD designs, but they are not mine, as another company paid for them to be done)

[chris watton]

I have some more pics of the Roman warship, and a little text from some of the research I did, if you're interested:

 

By the time of the beginning of the Punic Wars (264-146BC), the tried and tested Triremes were becoming too small to stand in the main battle lines. They were replaced by the Quinquereme or ‘Five’ – the ‘Five’ denoting the number of oarsmen at each section.

More than any other type; the Quinquereme was the weapon with which the Roman navy became the dominant, and ultimately, the only Mediterranean naval power.(Much like the 74 gun Ship of the Line became the mainstay of the Napoleonic navies). It remained in widespread front-line service until the founding of the Imperial Navy in the 20’s BC. After this time, because Rome had effectively made the Mediterranean her own (Mare Nostrum), the large capitol ships were no longer needed and fazed out of service, and seemingly disappearing as a type by the late 1^st century AD, after over three centuries of use.  

This model is based on a late Republic/early Empire vessel, which would have had an overall length of around 169 feet (51.5 m), making the model just over one metre long at 1:48 scale.  The model depicts the ultimate version of a Quinquereme, which incorporates almost three centuries of design changes from lessons learned through combat.

While researching, it became clear that the design of these vessels is very much still a subject of debate, most notably the oarsmen positioning.

What is certain is that the Quinquereme was higher, wider and longer than the trireme. Most sources suggest that the most probable distribution of the team of five rowers has them working three banks of oars, two men on each side of the highest and middle bank and a single rower each side for the lowest bank of oars. This is how the oarsmen (and oars) are positioned on the Hachette model.

 

Each bank or row has 30 oars, making 180 in total and 300 rowers. The Greek historian Polybius tells us that, as well as the 300 rowers, the vessels crew was about 20 men, to oversee the general operation of the ship and sails/rig, and carried 120 marines. Polybius wrote these figures down at the time of the third (and final) Punic War in 151-146BC, so it is very possible that later Quinqueremes carried more soldiers/marines as the vessels became larger.

The earlier quinqueremes (Punic Wars) had an overall length of 154 feet (47m) and used a ‘Corvus’, or ‘Raven’, which was essentially a large boarding platform fitted with a large spike on one end to drop onto the enemy ship’s deck and secure the boarding platform while the superior Roman troops crossed onto the enemy vessel.

Although very successful in combat, the Corvus proved to make the host vessel too unstable, and many Roman vessels were lost due to the high centre of gravity the platform caused – it is thought that more Roman losses at sea were caused by this than the actual enemy!

The Corvus was removed and taken completely out of service by about 250BC, and replaced by a smaller, but more stable boarding bridge. Unfortunately, no detailed descriptions of this new bridge survive, although Vegitus, writing in the late forth century, does say ‘move out their warships alongside, throw out bridges and cross over to the enemy’s ship to fight it out’. Clearly, it was of much lighter construction than the Corvus. This is shown on the Hachette version. There is a break in the forward bulkhead on both sides that allows the boarding platform to be deployed left or right.

It is suggested that grapnels were thrown to pull in the enemy vessel, and when close enough, the boarding bridge deployed. (Grapnels could even be deployed using the 4 ballistae, or ‘ harpaxes’, which were used at the time of Actium on 2 September 31 BC)

The model is shown with a fore and aft tower. Only the largest vessels could mount two, with smaller vessels mounting one tower, probably in the centre of the deck. They were mounted either square to the centreline of the ship or, as the Hachette version, diagonally, as depicted in some contemporary paintings/carvings.

Up to six archers and/or javelinmen could be placed in each tower, but not artillery due to weight and lack of working room (catapults could not be depressed downwards onto an enemy deck because of the design of their mountings)

As well as the four ballista’s/harpaxes, the model is shown with an onagar, designed for ship board use. This heavy artillery would be used to throw heavy stone shot or Greek Fire at the enemy – making the Quinquereme an extremely effective long and close range fighting platform.

The ram is designed using a contemporary marble carving (located at Ostia Antica, near Rome) as reference, and has horizontal and vertical vanes for effectively cutting into enemy hulls.

The Admiral’s cabin aft of the deck is of a more sturdy construction and more heavily decorated than normal, as more befitting a Roman commander of high status. For example, Admiral Agrippa (Augustus’s close friend) at the Battle of Actium. All decoration shown has been designed using only contemporary sources as reference.

Sails and Rig

Roman warships are rarely shown under sail with their main mast erect, as the primary motive power for the ship were the oars, and the sails used only to supplement the oars when winds were favourable.

Sails would certainly be not used in battle, and would be taken down and the main mast rested on the gallows, out of the way of the fighting deck before battle.

Because of the large size of the Hachette Quinquereme, the main mast is set in what is known as a ‘tabernackle’, which is essentially a large bracket to which the lower mast can pivot and brought down to rest of the rear gallows – with all attached rigging being able to move with the mast and then detached.

Roman vessels of this period had one large rectangular sail and, peculiar to the Roman vessels, also had additional triangular sails above the main sail called a ‘Supparum’, as is fitted to this model.

The largest ships also had a type of bowsprit, or forward mast, mounted at the bows and raked forward, so that the sail was in front of the bow. The sail was smaller and called, or is known as an ‘Artemon’, although it is still not certain if this word relates to the mast, sail or whole arrangement.

 

 

[Edwardkenway]

1 hour ago, chris watton said:

I never knew Airfix did a Shannon

Yes it was only very small with the sails moulded in the same plastic as the hull and other parts. They also did Victory, Revenge and Golden Hind in this series, I'm not sure but there may have been a Cutty Sark as well

[VTHokiEE]

Thanks for the info; that’s really pretty neat. Too bad there’s no matching kit that I could find for it as I would love to build something like that someday. I’m pretty certain there is a bireme kit floating around that may have to fit the bill.

[chris watton]

15 minutes ago, VTHokiEE said:

Thanks for the info; that’s really pretty neat. Too bad there’s no matching kit that I could find for it as I would love to build something like that someday. I’m pretty certain there is a bireme kit floating around that may have to fit the bill.

It may be worth contacting Hachette to see if this is still available?

 

This was part of the proof advertising for it

Edited October 5, 2019 by chris watton
Adding pictures

[chris watton]

14 minutes ago, Edwardkenway said:

Yes it was only very small with the sails moulded in the same plastic as the hull and other parts. They also did Victory, Revenge and Golden Hind in this series, I'm not sure but there may have been a Cutty Sark as well

Ah, I remember those from when I was a kid! I had the Golden Hind and Victory, but never once seen a Shannon!

[Edwardkenway]

After doing the obligatory Spitfire and Messerschmitt 109, the Shannon kit was my first sailing ship, I then went on to the bigger kits. Ahh childhood memories. 

[VTHokiEE]

28 minutes ago, chris watton said:

It may be worth contacting Hachette to see if this is still available?

 

This was part of the proof advertising for it

Thanks, I sent a email (hopefully to the right Hachette 🙂) and I’ll keep my fingers crossed.

[hollowneck]

Chris/VTHokiee,

 

At www.hachettepartworks.com the only models I can find are installment builds for naval subjects Bismarck, and a U-96 submarine. There is also a build for Arnold Schwartzenneggers' Terminator T-800. All German oriented. The U-96 is divided into 150 weekly installments. Simple math says this project will take approximately 3 years to build - assuming one needs to buy all 150 installments... @ £8.99 per issue. That works out to be £1,348.00 for the project. In USD that's approximately $1,700. 

 

Is this a real business in Europe (and the U.K.)? What am I missing here? Do people actually spend this kind of money on these "part works" model projects?

 

No wonder your beautiful prototype for the Quinquereme galley has vanished... have you ever considered buying back your un-realized prototype project from a former client? You know, at a "fire sale" price?😂

 

Ron

 

 

[VTHokiEE]

I found the old page on the Italian Hachette site, but it appears to be subscription based as well (and this page says no longer available, or maybe sold out, I forget). I also found a build log on an Italian forum that looked pretty cool, but stopped unfinished this past February. At least someone got one though.

 

No idea how the subscription model works though, or if this model was sold in that style.