Scratch Builders Reply

[Dave_E]

Hi you scratch builders. I’d like a survey from you of the MINIMUM required shop equipment and anything else that the average kit builder would not have in their shop to give scratch building an honest go. 🙂

[lmagna]

I will not include period ships in this as I have never scratch built one. But over the years I have built at least six or seven for myself and friends, (All RC) if you don't include stuff like stanchions and a few other assorted small parts that were available individually. In a few cases I even made the props. But not in every case. These have measured from as small at 20" to a little over 48". In all those builds all that was used were hand tools, the only powered ones being a drill, Dremel, and soldering iron. 

 

You just have to expect that things are going to take a little longer.

[ccoyle]

Randy Biddle, a well known modeler from SoCal, also uses mostly hand tools, same as Lou, and it's pretty near impossible to find fault with his work.

[Dave_E]

😳

[druxey]

One can build models with very few basic tools, it just takes longer! The magnificent models of 300 years ago were built entirely with hand tools. The main thing is to know how to sharpen edge tools properly and when to use which one. Yes, power tools are nice to own and speed up certain operations, but....

[BANYAN]

Dave I have quite a few power tools as I use them for other hobbies/carpentry as well.  I will provide a short list of the ones I use the most / find more useful, BUT all the others have a purpose as well and it depends on what I am doing at the time (for example while doing the spars, I would include the lathe ahead of the saw).  These are listed in  the order which I rate their assistance/usefulness in my building style.

 

As Druxey says though, hand tools can do the job just as well (but I am a boy who loves his power tools  :))

1. Disk sander (good quality, accurate)
2. Mill
3. Drill (Micromotor - Dentist type)
4. Benchtop saw
5. Resistance soldering unit

cheers

 

Pat

[Jaager]

It depends of your style of build.  POF?  POB?  Carved?

If you intend to be independent in your wood stock and mill your own, instead of buying it  - it makes a big difference.

The tools required are determined by the jobs that need to be done.

The basic step is to define the jobs involved with your ambition.

[mtaylor]

Take this a step further... will you be buying parts such as cannon?  Milling the wood from billets or buying sized wood?  Also, figure out what needs to be priority in tool needs.  As Chris and Druxey pointed out... amazing stuff can be done with nothing but hand tools.

 

Pat gave a good list but I'll add maybe a small laser cutter and lathe.  Of all the tools, the small table saw and scroll saw get used the most and lathe getting used the least.  Even my belt/disc sander (it's a combo unit) is not used much.  Same for the thickness sander. 

 

I do have some small power tools like a mini belt sander and dremel type tools that get used on a regular basis.  

 

Lastly... don't buy any tool until you really need it.  Been there, done that, have a pile of stuff under the bench.

[Dave_E]

WOW, you guys sure come through in the quick. Thank you all. Mark, I value those words as I have done the same. I have a couple things I bought thinking I’d use them in ship building… never touched them while building the Lady Nelson. 😖

I dusted off and cleaned my old bench top sander and  mounted some machine blocks to the bed and have some 320 on the disk now. I have a bench top drill press and band saw, 2 dremils and a million bits and chucks plus all the hand tools that I used building the LN.

 

I do plan to purchase things like cannon kits, and the hardware and the wood. So I guess the hardest thing I see now would be the bulkheads and keel parts. 
 

I do not see purchasing any laser cutters or 3D stuff… all out of my wheelhouse and wouldn’t get past the Admiral. 😆

[Cathead]

I've scratch built a few (see signature links), nothing museum quality but nothing to scoff at either, using virtually all simple hand tools. All my work is done on a 2'x3' table with occasional forays outdoors for some of the dustier work. I cheated and used a band saw and a dremel a few times, but that's it, and I could have done it without those, it just would have been slower and more obnoxious. Oh, and I've milled some of my own wood using a Byrnes table saw, but if you buy wood that's not necessary.

 

So I certainly don't think you need anything more than you say you have, especially if you have patience. I've no doubt that more toys tools make many things easier, but you asked about need, not want!

[Dave_E]

Outstanding Cat, thanks for the motivation! 👍😀

[stuglo]

From your picture you seem a youngster, so maybe time is not a problem. If however you have the space and money and wish to save time, may I suggest in addition to the usual:-

Band saw

Spindle sander

Hand held band sander

NOT by any means essential, but when used carefully, reduced hours of work to minutes and increase, at least in my case, the pleasure of building 'scratch'

[lmagna]

6 hours ago, ccoyle said:

it's pretty near impossible to find fault with his work.

I would never say that one could not find fault with the boats I built. In fact quite the opposite. The best I ever did in competition was 2nd in scale. It was a Russian icebreaking tug where virtually everything, including the props that took me a week each to make had to be scratch built. Nothing was available. The guy I built it for died not all that long ago and I have no idea where it went or is today.  

[Dave_E]

 

58 minutes ago, stuglo said:

From your picture you seem a youngster, so maybe time is not a problem. If however you have the space and money and wish to save time, may I suggest in addition to the usual:-

Band saw

Spindle sander

Hand held band sander

NOT by any means essential, but when used carefully, reduced hours of work to minutes and increase, at least in my case, the pleasure of building 'scratch'

Hey old timer, I’m 65, how old are you? 😆

[Dr PR]

The only power tools I have for modelling is a Dremel and a regular electric drill (poor man's lathe).

 

However, there is one thing I really want - but I have to make room for it first. That is a small milling machine - something with very good bearings and little run out (wobble). It would be handy for making jigs and tools for modeling/ But I think the most useful feature is the ability to reposition the work piece for precision distances in a straight line. This would make drilling an accurate series of uniformly spaced holes as in pin rails, fife rails, etc. This is difficult to do by hand, especially with very tiny drills. And a milling machine is designed to be used as a router for making horizontal cuts (drill presses aren't designed for lateral forces, only vertical forces).

 

If you like to work with sheet metal (brass, aluminum, thin steel, etc.) a metal brake is very handy for cutting precise edges and making repeatable bends. It is something that most modelers don't have, so you can get by without it.

 

A soldering iron is very handy for working with brass (photo etch).

 

Good high resolution 3D printers have come down in price to less than $200. These are really good for making complex parts like propellers, anchors, cannons and other small parts with lots of complex curves. BUT you have to be proficient at 3D CAD design and learning a new program can be a huge and frustrating time sink. I am not sure how good the 3D parts will hold up with time.

[Jaager]

5 hours ago, Dave_E said:

and have some 320 on the disk now

Something to consider:

PVA requires some 'tooth' at the surface of a wood-wood bond.  220 grit is right at the smoothness limit for a reliable bond.  120-150 grit is probably better, but my compulsion decrees 220.  For a display surface very fine grit is personal taste.

 

I very well may be off base with this, but there may factors at play with grit size that are not as benign as they seem.  A Dennis Moore moment as it were.

Edited July 11, 2022 by Jaager

[allanyed]

FWIW, the order (as far as I can remember) in which I built up my tool nest.  Other than the first two, these came into the collection over a period of 30 years or so.

Table saw (had this for other carpentry work as well)

Scroll saw

Mini table saw - An oldie but goodie from Micro Mark, but one of these days will get a Byrnes

Mini drill press

Planer

Thickness sander (Byrnes)

Lathe

Mill

The mill was added in the past year or so as I used the mini press for years.   Mill work is NOT for the drill press as the bearings are not set up for lateral forces, but when you have a budget, you do what you must.

 

I had a band saw that was rarely used and is long gone.

 

Coping saw, chisels, scalpels and all the usual suspects will suffice in a pinch, it is just a matter of taking more time as Druxey points out.

 

Allan

 

[knightyo]

Hi Dave,

 

This is a very good topic.  Just about everything I do is scratch, and my tools over the years have primarily consisted of fingers/sandpaper/x-acto blade, coupled with occasional usage of a mini-saw and files here and there.  I will say that I purchased a mini-lathe in order to turn cannons however, as that's incredibly fun.

 

But you seriously don't need to spend a lot of money in this hobby. You can, and you can save a lot of time by purchasing dedicated tooling, but it's not strictly necessary.  The most satisfaction I get from this hobby is by retreating into my cave and slowly shaping objects with sandpaper while lost in my own thoughts; it's definitely the process, not the destination that brings me happiness.  When I'm working with machinery, it feels more like work and isn't as enjoyable.

 

Alan

[barkeater]

Your post asked for minimum tools for scratch build. Like most other scratch builders, I use a lot of hand tools so micro files, scalpels, sandpaper, miter saw and box, and different picks and scrapers are what I use most. I'm not a big fan of rotary tools such as a Dremel as I feel I have more control with hand tools. The one power tool that you use most for scratch building is a scroll saw. If you want to rip your own planks rather than use commercially available wood strips, then you need a table saw. A lathe is not necessary. A mill or thickness sander is also nice, but the scroll saw, and table saw are what you are going to get the most use out of. 

Richard

[Dave_E]

“but the scroll saw, and table saw are what you are going to get the most use out of”.
 

I certainly can visualize the scroll saw for cutting out curvy bulkheads and keel parts! Yes I imagine it can be done by hand… 😳 

 

What scroll saw do you guys use? Table saw? Recommendations?

 

Thanks Richard 👍😀

[Roger Pellett]

Most of my models have carved hulls; either carved from solid blocks or laminated lifts.  My standards are using accurate research material, not model makers plans, and making all parts except cordage and chain myself. I do not have access to or interest in using photo-etch or 3D printing.

 

Hand tools:  Ordinary woodworking tools including a wood rasp, a selection of files and a set of chisels with sharpening materials.

 

Specialized model making tools:  Needle files and miniature rifflers; Archimedes drill and wire size numbered drills, #80- 50; miniature bronze spokeshaves; draw plate for tree nails;  plenty of different sized clamps; quality soldering iron, dividers, miniature sliding square, 2-3 engineers squares, metal rule, architects scale.

 

Power tools:  Bandsaw, drill press, and table saw.

I have built one POF model; A New York Pilot Boat c1815 using Howard Chapelle’s lines drawing.  According to the nameplate it was finished in 1982.  Materials:  boxwood and locally harvested pear and holly.  I used the “Hahn Method.”  All wood was cut on an ordinary 8 inch Sears Table saw equipped with Sears “Kromedge” hollow ground saw blades.  I did not own a Byrnes saw until many years later.  While theoretically possible to have built the model without the table saw using commercially purchased strip wood, it would have been difficult.

 

I have built up my shop over the years with additional tools as needed (or wanted 🤤)

 

Roger

 

 

[garyshipwright]

Hi Richard. I have the dewalt scroll saw, and three table saws. A ten inch cabinet saw from grizzly, Jim saw with a new 18"x 10" table top and a Preac saw for cutting grating and other parts. My Jim saw get's a lot of use compared to the other two and really enjoy using it. I would recommend the dewalt scroll saw and the Jim saw. Can't do with out them that's for sure. Also have the sherline lathe and mill which the mill gets the most used between the two. Gary

Edited July 11, 2022 by garyshipwright

[Edwardkenway]

13 hours ago, Dave_E said:

So I guess the hardest thing I see now would be the bulkheads and keel parts. 

Dave, my first attempt at a wooden ship scratch build was the Triton Cross Section,  all done with hand tools, cutting the frame components with a coping saw.

So as lots of the replies state, you can get by without power tools, but they do make things quicker and easier.

My first purchase was a 2nd hand scroll saw, the a proxxon table saw and and small cheap and cheerful rotary tool.

Good luck with your quest and be sure to let us know what your first scratch build will be😉

[CPDDET]

Thanks to Dave-E for asking this question. I too am a kit builder who plans on moving to scratch building once my Bluenose is finished.

 

 

[mtaylor]

4 hours ago, Dave_E said:

“What scroll saw do you guys use? Table saw? Recommendations?

 

Thanks Richard 👍😀

My scroll saw is from the big box hardware place locally (Lowes).   My little table saw is a MicroMark.  I've had both for about 10 years or longer and both are still  going strong.  I would love to have a Byrnes but at my age I just can't justify it.  I'm also of the "wear it out, use it up" belief.

 

BTW, do look around as there are deals for used.  Not just Fleaby but local yard sales and estate sales and auctions  many times have power tools on sale for little money compated to new.  Also, keep an eye on our Traders, Dealers section as members offer stuff regularly.

 

 

[Nirvana]

I am done with power tools; I have what I need as my arsenal was completed last weekend when my Admiral picked up a Craftsman 9 bandsaw for 50 dollars at a nearby estate sale.

Bandsaw

Byrnes Table saw

Byrnes Thickness sander

Byrnes Disc sander

Generic scroll saw
Dremel corded and re-chargable drill

Dremel Lathe

Ender 3 V2 3d printer

Airbrush

 

And yes, I do use all of them.

[CPDDET]

I do have a byrnes saw, byrnes disk sander, sherline mill, sherline lathe and Wen jig saw. Of course many hand tools. Since I plan on using precut lumber, do think I'll need a thickness sander or band saw.

[Jaager]

Dave,

What you write indicates that you intend to build POB.  That is an absolute 11 footer for me, but I offer the following:

 

Long ago I bought the MM low end scroll saw.  I found it unacceptable from the beginning.  It is under powered, the blade clamps do not hold all that well,  The up/down cutting action has the stock wanting to chatter.  It just takes up shelf space and collects dust. 

IF you buy a powered scroll saw, going as high a quality as you can afford will save you endless frustration.

I do significant scroll cutting of frame timbers, but a rough close enough is good enough is all that I need. What I cut is often 1/4" Hard Maple.  There is no way the MM scroll saw could handle that.  I use a generic 9" bandsaw with a Carter Stabilizer..  That saw is adequate for that job, but not much else.  

For POB and having to cut out a central spine and molds every couple of years or so,  you may be better served using a high quality Knew Concepts hand scroll saw.

 

I find the combo 1" belt sander/5" disk sander to be mostly junk.

Unless you are going to sand plastic , the Byrnes disk sander is as good as it gets.

 

If you have to ask, a 10" table saw is probably a bad idea.  It is the least efficient and most dangerous way to mill scale timber from lumber.

For getting planks and deck furniture from scale thickness stock,  a Byrnes table saw is a magnitude better than its nearest compare.

[CPDDET]

One thing I don't own is chisels. Have no idea what sizes I would need.

[Jaager]

40 minutes ago, CPDDET said:

Since I plan on using precut lumber, do think I'll need a thickness sander or band saw.

By precut, do you mean 8x4, 4x4, 3/4" lumber?

A bandsaw will get you close to final thickness, but even the finest bandsaw blade will leave a surface that needs additional treatment.

A thickness sander does that and the Byrnes model is the best.

 

A 9" or 10" bench top bandsaw is a source of frustration for serious resawing.

An under powered 14" bandsaw with unreliable tracking and low quality guides is something you do not want.