Syren Ship Model Company News, Updates and Info.....(part 2)

[Chuck]

Same here Druxey...Maybe its just nostalgia but I think I actually prefer my original blocks too.   But in fairness,  I learned so much during the process of trying to perfect block-making over the past year.  I think my original hand-made blocks are even better this time around because of that work.   And you cant beat them for the price.   I dont worry about the strop groove because once the block is stropped you cant see it anyway.   

 

It will take me a little while to make them in all sizes but I am happy report that I have some help this time around.   CNC is very slow....and there is so much more waste in terms of wood use than my old hand-made method as well.  So there are benefits to still making them as well.  This is why in spite of them being made by hand I can offer them up much cheaper.   I outsource the CNC blocks and they can make about 500 blocks max per day at this point.   When I make them by hand I can do around 1200 to 1400 blocks.  How crazy is that?  Especially nice when my son-in-law is making a batch, LOL.

 

Chuck

[Chuck]

A quick question for the group and an important one for what will be very apparent if you continue reading.  And I thought some of you might be interested in the business side of kit mfg and some of the decisions someone like me must make.

 

As you guys know,  I am working on. POF kit of Speedwell…below

 

I designed this kit so that the first two chapters would complete the entire framing and skeleton.  
 

As you can imagine the number of parts needed to fully frame the entire skeleton before planking is substantial.  They are quite thick as well.  Chapter one and two uses 

 

5 sheets of 3/8” thick Cedar

15 sheets of 1/4”

and 7 sheets of 5/16”

as well as another 14 sheets of various thicknesses.  
 

A grand total of 41 sheets of Yellow cedar to complete the first two chapters.

 

That gets you to the point where you can begin planking and adding other details in Chapter 3.  The same point as completing a plank on bulkhead skeleton where you are about to start planking.

 

This is what it looks like after the first two chapters…

 

 

I need to ask those who are very interested in building this kit and would likely purchase the first two chapters a question.  And anyone else who cares to share their input.

 

What Price would you expect to pay for these first two chapters?  Being fair minded and knowing the amount of wood used in these first two chapters and how long it takes to laser cut all those parts.  About one full day to laser cut two chapters for one kit.  Maybe a day and half.

 

What do you think is a fair price to pay for a framing set of these two chapters?    What is the price you would be willing to pay?   the hull is only slightly smaller than the Winnie…about the same exact size as the Vanguard Indi kit.

 

First two chapters and printed plans and instructions…
 

$400

 

$550

 

$700

 

$850

 

more?

 

 

I have started laser cutting the parts to make the first two chapters….

 

I know what my costs are and it may determine how many of these I actually make.  Most likely a limited run because it is sick expensive to make these outside of China or Russia.

 

material cost..???

time to laser and mfg???

time to research and design???

 

Keep in mind that a POB version would cost you about $275 to buy the parts needed to complete the skeleton so you could begin planking.

 

 

[RossR]

If POB is $275 I would guess at least $700.  That is a lot of wood.   I am not your target market for a kit like this since I am still relatively new to modeling, but I like that people like you are making higher end options.  Maybe someday.   

[Tigersteve]

You could easily charge at least $850 for this. I’m not sure what the wood cost is, but I’m sure it’s extensive. Shipping alone will be expensive. Those two chapters really give builders a solid foundation for a great model. People are paying for the quality of your design and kit. (Maybe Mike has a better opinion since he’s built many of your newer kits.)

Steve

Edited October 22, 2023 by Tigersteve

[glbarlow]

I think to answer that fairly it would help to know your material costs. Certainly your time and your design has value but too high a price for the first two chapters without knowing what the eventual full kit cost would be makes for a difficult buyer’s decision. 
 

Not much help I realize. 

[JeffT]

$850 would be fair I think considering other examples of similar kit types available.

[Keith_W]

I would happily pay $2000 for this and consider it reasonable. 41 sheets of pre-cut wood is much more than what some kits which are slightly less expensive will give you. I am working on one of those kits at the moment! However, from my recent order with you, I know that shipping to Australia will add substantially to the cost, and I will not want to buy the kit in instalments. I will wait until you have finalized and released more chapters before ordering. 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Keith_W

[RossR]

Any chance you would offer it as POB and POF.  At my current skill level I would be interested in POB, but I wouldn’t be up for the cost of POF.   I hope you do get enough interest in the POF to move forward with the project.  I think the hobby is better off with high end offerings like you are putting together.   Good luck and I hope we see this model in some form soon.  
 

and following the build logs will be enjoyable and educational.  
 

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by RossR

[mtaylor]

From watching you develop your past kits and also scratch building and also one of Chris's kits, I daresay your first two chapters are most costly chapters.  So all in all, I go along with what the others are basically saying.... don't short change yourself.

 

It's a pity you can farm out the cutting work for the first two chapters and maybe speed up the process and number of kits.  And no... I'm not talking about have some Chinese Pirate company do the work.   

[knightyo]

It almost feels like someone who is confident enough to tackle a POF would also be the type of person who would loft and cut their own frames.  I'm thinking you might have a larger pool of potential customers if you don't supply the wood, but do offer all of the templates needed for someone to cut their own frames, with very detailed instruction on how to cut/shape the difficult areas  (full-color photos/instructions, sexy book cover, etc).  I'll bet you could net out higher if you sold books at 300 bucks a pop (and low time investment in printing) instead of full kits at 2 grand (and a lot of time burned in creating material).. I could also see a lot of modeler's requesting a book (or set) as a Christmas gift from their spouse at 300 bucks a pop, but would not have success in asking said spouse to drop a couple grand for a kit.  If you found the right publisher and right mailing list, you might hit the jackpot. I've got a number of expensive books in my collection, but have no intention on creating the models; I just love having the books, looking at the photos, and knowing I could build the model some day if I ended up with an unexpected bonanza of free time.

 

If I were to tackle a POF, I could see myself paying for instructions/templates, but not the actual wood that I could cut/sand/shape myself.  The wood type is a limiter as well.  There would probably be people who might be interested in the kit, but only if it's in swiss-pear, etc. At this point in the game, if it were me, I'd create one or two kits and market them here and on your website, knowing that they would probably eventually sell, and then just replace them in stock one at a time as they do sell, so you could eventually recoup your investment, and also have a nice, random income source for as long as you want.  I think that in theory, with the right marketing, you could go either way; it would just be far less time consuming to create books than kits. 

 

EDIT: I would also absolutely offer this as a POB kit. 

 

2nd EDIT: Also as a miniature navy board project. lol 

 

Alan

Edited October 22, 2023 by knightyo

[Blue Ensign]

I love the stuff you produce Chuck, my Cheerful and Queen Anne Barge are two of my favourite models, and the Longboat which I have yet to complete.

To put things in perspective, I am currently building the Vanguard Indy at a cost of around $2000, and I’ve spent way over that in additional timbers, and other associated costs.

I am able to indulge my interests, but even so a completed cost of $2300 seems perfectly reasonable for such a special pof model, and my younger self would buy it in a heartbeat.

I think it would look very nice simply as an ‘in frame’ model, all that beautiful timber work to display.

I think you would also have great success with a pob version.

I can’t commit to a purchase as I’m in the twilight years of my modelling career, but then I did buy Indy, never say never eh.

 

B.E.

[Beckmann]

Hi Chuck,

in my opinion, the costs of a single chapter are more important than the total cost of the whole model. I never counted together, what I payed for all the chapters of the Winchelsea, because it does not matter. But I always had a look on the price of the next chapter + tax + delivery. So for most of the people it is probably best to not make a chapter more expensive than 250 to 300 $. You probably need 750 to 850 $ for the framing, so you better make 3 chapters for the framing and there will be many folk able to afford it. I am shure, everybody wants to build this model.

Matthias

[navarcus]

What about a lift version of this model as seen in the Speedwell book?

The sweet smell of Alaska yellow cedar while carving and sanding the shape. 

And the sure knowledge that no supernatural talent is needed to get to the finish line.

[Chuck]

Thanks for the feedback.  It was very helpful.  I will be making just 5 of the POF kits.  That is it.  It is sure to become a collectors item.  After talking to many kit mfg’s about the economy and current sales trends this is the best option.  Maybe in the future there will be another run of 5 kits.

Please send me a PM to

reserve one as a pre-Order reservation.

 

The cost for the first 2 chapters is $800.

Beyond that, each chapter will be considerably less with the completed kit costing around $2300.

 

 

This will be a fully rigged model.

 

Chuck

 

 

[Jim Rogers]

1 hour ago, Chuck said:

Thanks for the feedback.  It was very helpful.  I will be making just 5 of the POF kits.  That is it.  It is sure to become a collectors item.  After talking to many kit mfg’s about the economy and current sales trends this is the best option.  Maybe in the future there will be another run of 5 kits.

Please send me a PM to

reserve one as a pre-Order reservation.

 

The cost for the first 2 chapters is $800.

Beyond that, each chapter will be considerably less with the completed kit costing around $2300.

 

I will however begin work on a POB Version.  This will be considerably cheaper.  The starter package costing about $250.  No reservations required.

 

This will be a fully rigged model.

 

Chuck

 

 

Email sent. This will probably be the last model my old age permits me to build.

[dvm27]

It might be helpful to know if the $2300 includes the cost of the carvings Chuck. These amazing pieces, alone, have to be quite costly!

[No Idea]

I think that the first 5 builders of the POF model are getting a very good deal here.  Having scratched a frame in Castello I would estimate that the wood alone cost at least £300 ($400).  This is the real deal and what a lovely ship this is going to be to build   Not only that you know that its going to go together perfectly and also get the back up of the manufacturer right here.  In fact I think the first 5 builders will be more than lucky and I can't wait to see their builds on here!

[glbarlow]

I’m still a year or two from completing Winchelsea, the design and quality of parts are second to none. I don’t think I’d be a buyer of the POF model. Not because of price, the work required for framing isn’t something that appeals to me. Not that I don’t fully admire the work of those that do. I will however be very interested in a fully rigged POB model. Is there a chance it might be 1:48, I’m running out of prime display space for very large models, or at least my wife says I am. 

[Chuck]

8 hours ago, dvm27 said:

It might be helpful to know if the $2300 includes the cost of the carvings Chuck. These amazing pieces, alone, have to be quite costly!

Yes indeed it does Greg

 

And just to clarify...when I say POB it isnt the traditional POB.  I have known for some time that few would ever pay this much money for a quality POF kit.   I have planned for the last year to make sure that I could recoup my initial investment.   I have had a design in POB made and ready to go for a while now.  Just in case.

 

Forget everything you know about previous POB designs.   This version will look identical to the fully framed version.  But it will let you fully detail all of the interior.   It is basically the same kit with less than half the frames.

 

 

[Jim Rogers]

11 minutes ago, Chuck said:

Yes indeed it does Greg

 

And just to clarify...when I say POB it isnt the traditional POB.  I have known for some time that few would ever pay this much money for a quality POF kit.   I have planned for the last year to make sure that I could recoup my initial investment.   I have had a design in POB made and ready to go for a while now.  Just in case.

 

Forget everything you know about previous POB designs.   This version will look identical to the fully framed version.  But it will let you fully detail all of the interior.   It is basically the same kit with less than half the frames.

 

The only difference is the number of frames and they are even more simplified.   They will also be made from Basswood.  This will allow me to charge around $250-$275 for the same two chapters in this version and it will look identical.  The only difference being you will need to fully plank the external hull.  This is very much like the original contemporary model and will in fact look almost identical to it.  All frames will still have to be made giving those who build it a good idea of what a fully framed model entails.   Chapter 3 onward will be exactly the same.

 

I will also need a volunteer to receive the first two POB or dare I say the cheaper Fully Planked chapters to prove out the modified design...All of the parts will be yellow cedar or Boxwood except for the frame components and jigs which will be basswood and ply.

 

 

I’m in. Reserve me one, either version.

[knightyo]

Chuck, just brainstorming here, but I loved the look of the framing/shadowbox you had on the Confederacy.  If you provided that as an option on the POB, that might appeal even more to builders, as it could still have the look of a fully framed model as well.  Kind of the best of all worlds for a lot of modelers.

 

Alan

[scrubbyj427]

I bet your material costs alone come close to or exceed $550. I think $800 is a bargain for this model considering laser time, design time, packaging… and at a final cost similar to Winnie which produces just as nice of a model but framed is a steal. A POB version at 1/48 would be nice as well.

[gjdale]

Just thinking out loud here Chuck, but since you have done all of the design work and presumably all of the laser cutting is a “file”, would it not be possible to produce the POF kits “to order”? That would mean that you wouldn’t need to keep an inventory of either kits or raw material in stock until someone placed an order - that order being on the understanding that there would be a certain lead time before the kit was ready for dispatch. And if the cost of materials goes up, then so does the kit price. Just seems to me to be low risk (for you) while providing a degree of certainty for the would-be buyer.

[Chuck]

2 hours ago, scrubbyj427 said:

I bet your material costs alone come close to or exceed $550. I think $800 is a bargain for this model considering laser time, design time, packaging

Remember that is just for the first two chapters....although I have been discussing with Joe my wood supplier and we have come up with a plan to make things a lot more plausible. Yes its about $500 my cost for those first two chapters after its all said and done....Plans, Licensing fee, packaging, laser time and wood.   This doesnt include the design time or time to write the instructions etc.  Its really not a smart business decision...its more of a labor of love and I really wanted to build it for myself.   So there is that satisfaction.  

 

2 hours ago, gjdale said:

would it not be possible to produce the POF kits “to order”?

That is pretty much the only way to do it.   I couldnt possibly ask Joe to mill the hundreds of sheets of wood needed at one time.   So I will be making just one or two chapter sets at a time as my wood supply allows.   I will of course make the initial 5 sets of chapters one and two to start.   I already have two sets laser cut....three more to go.

 

Chuck

[JacquesCousteau]

This question probably betrays my lack of knowledge about kit design, but would a cross-section kit be feasible? 

[Chuck]

There are so many cross sections out there already…good…bad…and ugly and everything in between.  
 

Two chapter one sets almost complete

 

 

If I only sell 5 of these that will be fine…if I sell more, thats great too.  
 

But I am not gonna worry about it too much unless the Admiral finds out how much $$$ I lost on the project,  LOL

 

I might just push ahead with the POF only and just cut my losses…and move on to another project once this is done.

 

That would be the smartest thing to

do.  LOL

[mtaylor]

11 minutes ago, Chuck said:

If I only sell 5 of these that will be fine…if I sell more, thats great too.  
 

But I am not gonna worry about it too much unless the Admiral finds out how much $$$ I lost on the project,  LOL

 

I might just push ahead with the POF only and just cut my losses…and move on to another project once this is done.

 

That would be the smartest thing to

do.  LOL

If it comes down to it, just tell her your business needed the tax write off.  I've heard that many business types use this reason.

[glbarlow]

I’m definitely interested in a 1:48 POB version if that’s on the table. 

[Chuck]

Its sadly not…that would be an entirely different model needed to be started from scratch.

 

Just to let folks know because that request comes up a lot.  Not just of me but I see folks ask other mfg’s as well.

 

You just cant increase or decrease the size.  Any change in scale requires quite a bit of redesign…as if you were starting from the beginning.  Wood thicknesses and sizes will get too screwy and you couldnt use nominal common sizes.  It would be such a headache.

 

[Rustyj]

Hi Chuck, Sorry I was away yesterday and didn't see the posts until this morning so I couldn't contribute. Your decision is sound, and I feel your pricing is very reasonable.  You could easily ask more and I'm sure more than 5 people would gladly pay it. I know I would.