Chris Watton and Vanguard Models news and updates

[chris watton]

3 minutes ago, Oldsalt1950 said:

The price will not be a problem, space for the finished ship, and the time for building it will.

I have said before, I am always tempted to do Caledonia, a 120 gun First Rate, just to see the expression on my wife's face as the hull is built!

[Oldsalt1950]

Do you have a suit of armor in the closet??

[BobG]

4 hours ago, chris watton said:

I have said before, I am always tempted to do Caledonia, a 120 gun First Rate, just to see the expression on my wife's face as the hull is built!

🤣 

All joking aside though, is the Caledonia actually a possibility sometime in the future? It seems like the Indy will be the crowning achievement of the Vanguard line of models once it is released. Do you have plans for expanding and/or diversifying your lineup further in the years to come? 

[AJohnson]

On 5/5/2022 at 10:10 PM, BobG said:

🤣

All joking aside though, is the Caledonia actually a possibility sometime in the future? It seems like the Indy will be the crowning achievement of the Vanguard line of models once it is released. Do you have plans for expanding and/or diversifying your lineup further in the years to come? 

Or one of the Lively/Leda Frigates? - "Macedonian", "Shannon", "Trincomalee", just saying (hoping!) one year.... 😁 🤞

Edited May 7, 2022 by AJohnson

[chris watton]

24 minutes ago, BobG said:

🤣

All joking aside though, is the Caledonia actually a possibility sometime in the future? It seems like the Indy will be the crowning achievement of the Vanguard line of models once it is released. Do you have plans for expanding and/or diversifying your lineup further in the years to come? 

It is all dependant on sales. If Indy is successful, then of course, I have quite a list of what I want to do. After Indy, there will be a couple of medium size kits developed (in size, between Speedy and Sphinx), plus Bristol.

 

Eventually the 'Flagship' is to be a First Rate, Royal George of 1756 - but again, all dependent  on how things go, as this will be a two year development at least.

 

14 minutes ago, AJohnson said:

Or one of the "Lively" Frigates? - "Macedonian", "Shannon", "Trincomalee", just saying (hoping!) one year.... 😁 🤞

I do have a 38 earmarked, two, in fact (one is of Spanish origin) , but I will do a 36 (Phoebe Class) before then, as a 36 hasn't been done in kit form yet, as far as I know. I very nearly decided to go for the 36 before Indy, but the latter just pipped it at the post.

 

But right now, and for most of the rest of the year, I shall be concentrating on Indy.

[BobG]

3 hours ago, chris watton said:

Eventually the 'Flagship' is to be a First Rate, Royal George of 1756

Wow! The Royal George would be an incredible model! 

[mtaylor]

At this rate, we're all going to need a bigger house.

[BobG]

1 minute ago, mtaylor said:

At this rate, we're all going to need a bigger house.

...plus some sort of life extension as well...

[Nirvana]

32 minutes ago, mtaylor said:

At this rate, we're all going to need a bigger house.

Or a separate house......

Someone wise said, "Happy wife, happy life" 

But sometimes you just have to take command and charge.... because I want to be happy too...🙂

 

[Blue Ensign]

13 hours ago, chris watton said:

- and the quarter galleries have simple seats of ease!

 

 

Does that mean the Qtr Galleries will be properly structured, with the option of having the doors open, allowing light to filter thro' from the  Great cabin?

This improves the look of the galleries no end in my opinion.

 

B.E.

[Nipper]

9 hours ago, chris watton said:

It is all dependant on sales. If Indy is successful, then of course, I have quite a list of what I want to do. After Indy, there will be a couple of medium size kits developed (in size, between Speedy and Sphinx), plus Bristol.

 

Eventually the 'Flagship' is to be a First Rate, Royal George of 1756 - but again, all dependent  on how things go, as this will be a two year development at least.

 

I do have a 38 earmarked, two, in fact (one is of Spanish origin) , but I will do a 36 (Phoebe Class) before then, as a 36 hasn't been done in kit form yet, as far as I know. I very nearly decided to go for the 36 before Indy, but the latter just pipped it at the post.

 

But right now, and for most of the rest of the year, I shall be concentrating on Indy.

Chris

I wish you every success with Indy and I'm really looking forward to what your next project will be.  When I've finished my Sphinx - I'm anticipating another 18 months mininmum of pleasure before that event! - I'm thinking of doing one of your lovely little fishing boats, which will look so good alongside the bigger craft.  And by that time we'll know what further treats are in store.  Personally, I'd be delighted if you choose something from the mid-eighteenth century - this time was the epitome of beauty, in the lines of the frigates in particular.

Nipper

[chris watton]

1 hour ago, Blue Ensign said:

Does that mean the Qtr Galleries will be properly structured, with the option of having the doors open, allowing light to filter thro' from the  Great cabin?

This improves the look of the galleries no end in my opinion.

 

B.E.

I have made them in a slightly different way, but not too different to how I normally do them - but yes, the door can be left open to allow light to filter through. 

[chris watton]

46 minutes ago, Nipper said:

Chris

I wish you every success with Indy and I'm really looking forward to what your next project will be.  When I've finished my Sphinx - I'm anticipating another 18 months mininmum of pleasure before that event! - I'm thinking of doing one of your lovely little fishing boats, which will look so good alongside the bigger craft.  And by that time we'll know what further treats are in store.  Personally, I'd be delighted if you choose something from the mid-eighteenth century - this time was the epitome of beauty, in the lines of the frigates in particular.

Nipper

Thank you!

 

Mid to late 18th Century is my favourite period for ships, with the 1770's being the sweet spot for form and function. Amazon Class 32's and Swan Class sloops being perfect examples.

[Blue Ensign]

Thanks Chris,  on Sphinx it was the solid middle gallery pattern that gave me trouble, effectively blocking the gallery at mid height and preventing the installation of the  seat of ease.

I seem to recall from somewhere that only one gallery (Portside) was fitted with  a seat of ease, the other being used for storage of the Captains gear, or even used as small office if big enough.

 

B.E.

[Vane]

The Indy looks amazing and its way larger than the rest of the kits you have. I just love those photos with several ships next to eachother. I think you should  do a "family photo" with the whole ship range!   

To be honest, I do think the price can become an issue for the larger kits if you are aiming for the highest quality standards as the smaller ones. Of course, we all want to see an 120 gun ship in 1/64 with millions of parts but in practice it is perhaps not what the market really wants. Its so easy to think with the heart when discussing possible ships, but from a pure business point of view I would say that you need to have a range of kits where they are spread out evenly. And where the price goes up a step as the ships get larger and there is little bit for everyone and you can gradually go for more and more difficult and more costly builds. Size is not everything! As you know, I have several builds going on, but the smallest one Speedy is still my favourite. Hope to post some new photos of the latest progress soon... 


       

 

 

 

[chris watton]

The problem is, Vane, that if I made the larger models less detailed to try and maintain the same amount of materials (and used lesser materials, too) and cutting times I use for the smaller ones, then the kits would be absolutely no different from other kits of similar size from other larger manufacturers. Anyway, adding less to larger kits isn't what I am about, the price will be whatever the price will be. I develop how I would want my own kit to be, and then work out the price.

 

I have now developed 11 kits, the largest being Sphinx up to now. Indefatigable is my 12th development , so it's not like I have jumped off the deep end immediately. This is my third year.

 

The 'HMS Fly size' kits will come after Indy - a little smaller than Sphinx, but noticeably larger than Speedy.

[Glenn-UK]

I go for quality over cost every time. I am lucky that I am now in a position to buy these fantastic kits regardless of the price.

[Oldsalt1950]

We are blessed here to have two great designer/manufacturers of ships to build in Chris and Chuck Passaro. Their kits are not inexpensive, but the quality is magnitudes ahead of the rest of the competition. When you buy from them you aren't going to the additional trouble of discarding and buying additional bits and pieces to replace the sub-par bits. which bring the cost of the less expensive kit up. Replacing castings and rope to get a really nice build adds up  and you are also left waiting for materials to be delivered. With Chris and Chuck we get to see the build of the ship in question, and can determine from what we see if the build will be what we really want. We also have the luxury of being able to interact with the designer/manufacturer directly to get questions answered. Try doing that with the big manufacturers!

[Dave_E]

Forgive me if I missed it, but after reading 6 pages of your site on MSW… what scale is the Indy? Estimated OAL and height with rigging?

[chris watton]

4 minutes ago, Dave_E said:

Forgive me if I missed it, but after reading 6 pages of your site on MSW… what scale is the Indy? Estimated OAL and height with rigging?

All my kits are 64th.

 

Cannot tell you final length and height, as I am yet to draw the masts and bowsprit. It will be around Agamemnon size, taking around 30mm off the height, but add about 120mm to overall length, as I shall do Indy with a Flying Jibboom

[chris watton]

10 minutes ago, Oldsalt1950 said:

We are blessed here to have two great designer/manufacturers of ships to build in Chris and Chuck Passaro. Their kits are not inexpensive, but the quality is magnitudes ahead of the rest of the competition. When you buy from them you aren't going to the additional trouble of discarding and buying additional bits and pieces to replace the sub-par bits. which bring the cost of the less expensive kit up. Replacing castings and rope to get a really nice build adds up  and you are also left waiting for materials to be delivered. With Chris and Chuck we get to see the build of the ship in question, and can determine from what we see if the build will be what we really want. We also have the luxury of being able to interact with the designer/manufacturer directly to get questions answered. Try doing that with the big manufacturers!

I remember spending £547 on Sovereign of the Seas 30 years ago now. This was two years worth of hobby time (worked in a castings foundry at the time), but I did spend almost the same again on better materials, and a lot of the time was spent correcting (as best as I could) the shortcomings in the historical detail, even to the point of altering completely the deck and side sheers. But, as a hobby and the enjoyment from all the extra research, it was still a bargain.

[Vane]

Personally I really like that Vanguard is aiming for high quality kits with perfect fit, new inventive solutions, Royal Navy, only 1/64 scale, better materials and better wood than the walnut approach. Ever since I started to work with boxwood I will likely always buy that seperately if the wood is visable and not painted black. 

 

From a price point of view, all customers will be able to buy kits in the 100-200Euro range, no issue at all. 300-500 Euro is also kind of standard when it comes to ship kits. People that are into the hobby will definitely be able to pay a few 100 extra for the extra quality. I justify the cost for myself simply by thinking of build hours and not by the ship itself. Its just ricurlous to buy "a ship" as some decoration for several hundreds euros. But considering the hundreds of hours you spend on a kit, its kind of a cheap hobby per hour. A few extra bucks per hour is not that big of deal if it makes your hobby better. 

 

However, once you reach the 1000euro mark and above there is kind of a psycologal barrier.  You really need to be into the hobby then. So I would guess that the market for those kits are probably much smaller. 

 

 

[BobG]

2 hours ago, chris watton said:

I develop how I would want my own kit to be, and then work out the price.

I'm so glad that this is your approach to developing your models. I think the larger, and consequently more expensive models, appeal primarily to to modelers who are looking for exactly what you are doing by making historically accurate kits that have outstanding materials, plans and instructions. What you are doing with is a breath of fresh air.

 

There's already enough large, expensive model kits on the market that have frustratingly poor materials and instructions and cut corners on historical accuracy. They can be built into wonderful models by dedicated modelers but they often require extensive modifications and scratch building to rectify their shortcomings. I'd gladly pay a higher price to not have to deal with that. Heck, I even think there's a place in the market for much better versions of kits for some of the most famous ships in history that are currently made by other companies that have been on the market for years but have never been upgraded and improved. 

[BobG]

3 hours ago, chris watton said:

I remember spending £547 on Sovereign of the Seas 30 years ago now. This was two years worth of hobby time (worked in a castings foundry at the time), but I did spend almost the same again on better materials, and a lot of the time was spent correcting (as best as I could) the shortcomings in the historical detail, even to the point of altering completely the deck and side sheers.

This is exactly what I was talking about when I made my previous post saying that I believe that there is a place in the market for newly updated and improved kits of famous ships that will always be popular with modelers. A newly designed, historically accurate kit of the Sovereign of the Seas with high quality materials and excellent plans and instructions is a perfect example and I think it would be more popular than the existing kits on the market that have so many shortcomings. 

[hollowneck]

On 5/5/2022 at 12:24 PM, chris watton said:

Tomorrow I shall start on the various cleats for the bulwarks and decks, and then move onto the bow area.

Chris, how 'bout rails - especially ekeing - in a 3D print?

3 hours ago, chris watton said:

I develop how I would want my own kit to be, and then work out the price.

Impressive, über-detailed model. Impressive über moolah. Cheers. What will be, will be.

[chris watton]

14 minutes ago, BobG said:

This is exactly what I was talking about when I made my previous post saying that I believe that there is a place in the market for newly updated and improved kits of famous ships that will always be popular with modelers. A newly designed, historically accurate kit of the Sovereign of the Seas with high quality materials and excellent plans and instructions is a perfect example and I think it would be more popular than the existing kits on the market that have so many shortcomings. 

There are only a very few I would revisit, as I do like to do new subjects. I don't like Sovereign enough to dedicate 2-3 years of development, and the many thousands it would cost. I would however like to do a Restoration 50-70 gun ship at some point, I think that would look very nice.

[hollowneck]

3 hours ago, chris watton said:

All my kits are 64th.

 

Cannot tell you final length and height, as I am yet to draw the masts and bowsprit. It will be around Agamemnon size, taking around 30mm off the height, but add about 120mm to overall length, as I shall do Indy with a Flying Jibboom

Yikes. I'll need to find a new spot for my 1/64 HMS Ardent from Chris (Caldercraft Agamemnon)...A fully-rigged 64 looks like this in my home's hallway entrance. I'll also need to consult with my Wealth Management Investment advisors.😂

[chris watton]

1 hour ago, Vane said:

Personally I really like that Vanguard is aiming for high quality kits with perfect fit, new inventive solutions, Royal Navy, only 1/64 scale, better materials and better wood than the walnut approach. Ever since I started to work with boxwood I will likely always buy that seperately if the wood is visable and not painted black. 

 

From a price point of view, all customers will be able to buy kits in the 100-200Euro range, no issue at all. 300-500 Euro is also kind of standard when it comes to ship kits. People that are into the hobby will definitely be able to pay a few 100 extra for the extra quality. I justify the cost for myself simply by thinking of build hours and not by the ship itself. Its just ricurlous to buy "a ship" as some decoration for several hundreds euros. But considering the hundreds of hours you spend on a kit, its kind of a cheap hobby per hour. A few extra bucks per hour is not that big of deal if it makes your hobby better. 

 

However, once you reach the 1000euro mark and above there is kind of a psycologal barrier.  You really need to be into the hobby then. So I would guess that the market for those kits are probably much smaller. 

 

 

When first thinking of developing Sphinx, I agonised for weeks about the best way to approach this. Do I keep costs down and spend just a couple of weeks on designs and make a simple block type model like most others on the market, with a fraction of the laser cutting and a lot less PE, or go all out and have a product that stands out, and risk it not selling due to the cost.

 

I did take a chance and went with the latter option (in truth, my heart wouldn't have it any other way), and so far, despite the cost (although not so bad when all time and materials included are taken into account), Sphinx has outsold everything else by quite a margin. I was so relieved, as I had just given up my day job in order to spend all of my time producing the kits.

 

This is when I knew there is a market for such kits, and this gave me the confidence to go all in with Indefatigable - although all such developments are risky. I sometimes think it's all worth it just to see these lovely hull likes in the flesh, even at development stage.

46 minutes ago, hollowneck said:

Chris, how 'bout rails - especially ekeing - in a 3D print?

Impressive, über-detailed model. Impressive über moolah. Cheers. What will be, will be.

I have given thought to this, and there are just too many variables for such 3-d printed parts, as no two models are going to be the exact same - but I am yet to work on this area (next week I start)

39 minutes ago, hollowneck said:

Yikes. I'll need to find a new spot for my 1/64 HMS Ardent from Chris (Caldercraft Agamemnon)...A fully-rigged 64 looks like this in my home's hallway entrance. I'll also need to consult with my Wealth Management Investment advisors.😂

Great looking model! I remember doing the designs for that on graph paper in my own home, and in my own time back in 1999!

Edited May 6, 2022 by chris watton

[BobG]

48 minutes ago, chris watton said:

There are only a very few I would revisit, as I do like to do new subjects. I don't like Sovereign enough to dedicate 2-3 years of development, and the many thousands it would cost. I would however like to do a Restoration 50-70 gun ship at some point, I think that would look very nice.

Fully understandable.

 

Wishful thinking but a lot of us Yanks would be over the moon if you ever decided to tackle a couple of famous America ship models. Just sayin'... 😜

[chris watton]

4 minutes ago, BobG said:

Fully understandable.

 

Wishful thinking but a lot of us Yanks would be over the moon if you ever decided to tackle a couple of famous America ship models. Just sayin'... 😜

Well, as almost half of my total customer base is from the US, I must do something in the future to show my appreciation!