HMS Indefatigable 1794 (prototype) by James H - Vanguard Models - 1:64

[chris watton]

Nope, there is no evidence of chain pumps. I was so sure she had them that I brought in drawings of them into my main Indy file, in anticipation of adding them. But when concentrating on that area, it became clear the old chain pumps were changed for standard hand pumps. I did find this strange, but, absent of evidence to the contrary, I have to follow the contemporary drawings.

Edited December 29, 2022 by chris watton

[James H]

I've coppered the first side and will do an update once I've coppered the opposite side and trimmed it down to waterline level. 

 

Here she is so far.

 

[chris watton]

21 hours ago, Blue Ensign said:

I find it almost inconceivable that a ship the size of Indefatigable did not have Chain pumps, when even humble sixth rates had them.

However, this plan of Indy does appear to show elm tree pumps abaft the Mainmast, I think Chain pumps were shown with rectangular heads to represent the hoods.

This bothers me, as I'm sure it did Chris, could there possibly be an error on the drawing? but even so I understand why he followed the plan.

 

On the bright side the area behind the Mainmast is more or less hidden by the Quarter-deck  so their absence won't be a constant reminder of this conundrum. 

 

B.E.

As I said, I had to go on the only contemporary evidence I had. It was a tough decision, but felt the best one. I know that Pellew had a lot of control when fitting her out, I figured that perhaps he insisted on hand pumps for some reason, instead of the main type. The plans of the two decker Indy shown chain pumps, the plans for the razee do not, I could not ignore that.

 

I do suspect that if I went with my first gut instinct and replaced them with the main type, then people would have pointed out that the plans show hand pumps, so whatever I did, it wouldn't be right to some...

[glbarlow]

I think it’s clear by now, Indy as designed by Chris based on actual existing plans does not have chain pumps. Those that want to re-imagine the historical plans, or as reincarnated in an earlier life sailed onboard the Indy and recall them should add them to the model after they purchase it from Chris. Can we all move on now please and enjoy James’ build log. 

[Seb Martingale]

I have pre-ordered Indy, with pear wood blocks, the maple lasered deck and etched copper plates.

I eagerly look forward to the kits release and despatch.

I crewed on the Sydney based James Craig for a number of years - the photo next to my name was taken from aloft on that ship. Model ship building takes me back to those days - wonderful.

thanks Chris.

Edited December 29, 2022 by Seb Martingale
Addition

[James H]

The original Indy clearly shows the chain pumps fitted, but the drawings made for the razed iteration shows that other changes were made too...one of them being the chain pump omission. The guys doing these plans surely knew what they were doing, and adding the smaller pumps would've been a very unusual move and not one that would've been done without them being specifically requested. That's what the drawings show, ergo, that's how the deck is fitted out.

 

[mugje]

On 12/27/2022 at 9:25 AM, James H said:

I've coppered the first side and will do an update once I've coppered the opposite side and trimmed it down to waterline level. 

 

Here she is so far.

 

Great job James! I'm coppering the Pegasus now and that's quite a job already...can't imagine the amount of work on the Indy! However...I think the copper tape works easier and faster then little plates. What's you're experience with this James?

[James H]

38 minutes ago, mugje said:

Great job James! I'm coppering the Pegasus now and that's quite a job already...can't imagine the amount of work on the Indy! However...I think the copper tape works easier and faster then little plates. What's you're experience with this James?

 

It certainly works faster and is more forgiving. If I get a plate slightly wrong, I can just reposition it or throw it away and add a new one. No more CA gel, but you also don't get the nail marks (if you wanted them). These can be added with a rivet tool from VM or a beading tool.

[mugje]

48 minutes ago, James H said:

 

It certainly works faster and is more forgiving. If I get a plate slightly wrong, I can just reposition it or throw it away and add a new one. No more CA gel, but you also don't get the nail marks (if you wanted them). These can be added with a rivet tool from VM or a beading tool.

Great!

[yvesvidal]

After coppering the massive hull of the Bellona, I swear by the Copper Tape and the rivet tool (wheel). The tape is flexible enough to accommodate all the slight imperfections and you do not have to use CA glue. I taped 2400 plates after stamping them with the wheel (9600 passes). Finally, the cost of the tape is about 1/10th the price of the copper tiles.

 

Yves

[James H]

49 minutes ago, yvesvidal said:

After coppering the massive hull of the Bellona, I swear by the Copper Tape and the rivet tool (wheel). The tape is flexible enough to accommodate all the slight imperfections and you do not have to use CA glue. I taped 2400 plates after stamping them with the wheel (9600 passes). Finally, the cost of the tape is about 1/10th the price of the copper tiles.

 

Yves

 

I must admit that the thought of running a rivet tool, freehand over the hull, would fill me with dread. If I opt to rivet the hull, I think I'll do one plate at a time with a beading tool. I'm quite used to that method for adding rivet lines to large 1:32 airframes. 

[hollowneck]

1 hour ago, James H said:

 

I must admit that the thought of running a rivet tool, freehand over the hull, would fill me with dread. If I opt to rivet the hull, I think I'll do one plate at a time with a beading tool. I'm quite used to that method for adding rivet lines to large 1:32 airframes. 

I am not familiar with “beading tool;” can you (or another MSW member) post a photo of the tool? thanks!

 

[wernerweiss]

1 hour ago, hollowneck said:

I am not familiar with “beading tool;” can you (or another MSW member) post a photo of the tool? thanks!

 

A beading tool is in principle a nail with a grip......see Google 

[James H]

This is a beading tool. Used by jewellers for making indent patterns etc.

 

[hollowneck]

53 minutes ago, James H said:

This is a beading tool. Used by jewellers for making indent patterns etc.

Wow. This tool looks absolutely Medieval.

2,400 copper plates with 9,600 indents made by this tool one at a time? It does involve torture!

James, you're a better jeweler than I...😂

[chris watton]

21 minutes ago, hollowneck said:

Wow. This tool looks absolutely Medieval.

2,400 copper plates with 9,600 indents made by this tool one at a time? It does involve torture!

James, you're a better jeweler than I...😂

Or you can use this:

 

Rivet Maker tool – VANGUARD MODELS

 

A lot quicker!

Edited December 31, 2022 by chris watton

[GrandpaPhil]

A similar tool to that rivet maker is what I use for the indents on the coppering for my models.

 

It works supremely well.

Edited December 31, 2022 by GrandpaPhil

[yvesvidal]

1 hour ago, hollowneck said:

Wow. This tool looks absolutely Medieval.

2,400 copper plates with 9,600 indents made by this tool one at a time? It does involve torture!

James, you're a better jeweler than I...😂

 

Hollowneck,

 

I did not use that medieval torture tool for the Bellona. I used a pouncing wheel, driven by a ruler to mark each tile (25 mm x 8 mm) one time on each side: 

That was not too bad, in retrospect.

 

Yves

[James H]

***Please note***

 

Any further posts regarding chain pumps will be deleted from hereon in. It's superfluous to the discussion and serves only to derail what I'm trying to achieve here. I've even received PMs demanding to know why I removed member's posts after me needing to cull my topic (for the third time!). It must stop. Now.

[Sizzolo]

Hopefully a picture says 1000 words (see attached pic). This is my solution (in progress) to the nail pattern. 

I started by watching this YouTube clip:

 

I found the exact dimensions from a great article on the plates on USS Constitution. 
https://www.academia.edu/358814/The_Introduction_and_Use_of_Copper_Sheathing_A_History
 

Then I had to find wheels with the right width and space between prongs. I found only one - in China, that was a set of 5 different wheels. I needed 5 copies of one wheel from the set but unfortunately they aren’t sold individually so it cost me quite a bit to get 5 sets. At least now I know I can use it for thousands of plates for all future builds though. 
 

Final step is to build a jig for the nail barrel so that I can just slot in the copper tape and pull it through. 
 

Hope u all have success at this too!

Loving this build Chris/James. Has really inspired me. Thank you. 
 

 

(V brief edit added on 5 Jan 2023: Possibly a good way of coppering one’s Indy kit hull might be to copper after planking, and then heavily mask over all the copper and remove the masking as the last step in the build. The copper can get easily affected (aged) by fingerprints and scratched by fingernails. Only guesswork from me as I haven’t got to that stage yet and I’m only hypothesising).

 

Edited January 5, 2023 by Sizzolo
Additional thoughts

[James H]

I'll do a proper update this weekend, but here's a quick phone photo of the coppered and trimmed hull.

 

Other work I've been doing is finishing up the 24' cutter, painting the timberhead rails and building channels...as well as many other things. She will come together pretty quickly, but I do need to protect this copper from tarnishing.

 

 

[Kevin]

what will you use to prevent tarnishing?

[Oboship]

That picture alone would make for a museum display or modeling contest! What a beauty!

I envy your skills and craftsmanship! What is your principal profession? Are you a watchmaker or a "vascular surgeon"?😉

[James H]

6 minutes ago, Oboship said:

That picture alone would make for a museum display or modeling contest! What a beauty!

I envy your skills and craftsmanship! What is your principal profession? Are you a watchmaker or a "vascular surgeon"?😉

 

I work as a Senior Tech in local government.

[yvesvidal]

17 hours ago, James H said:

Other work I've been doing is finishing up the 24' cutter, painting the timberhead rails and building channels...as well as many other things. She will come together pretty quickly, but I do need to protect this copper from tarnishing.

I have had some success with Future Floor on the Bellona hull. After a few months and multiple manipulations, the copper is taking its natural course with very little tarnish.

 

 

I do not know if you can find that chemical in the UK. Most likely.

 

Yves

Edited January 6, 2023 by yvesvidal

[James H]

23 minutes ago, yvesvidal said:

I have had some success with Future Floor on the Bellona hull. After a few months and multiple manipulations, the copper is taking its natural course with very little tarnish.

 

I do not know if you can find that chemical in the UK. Most likely.

 

Yves

 

I do have several bottles of that stuff, but I'm thinking something that imparts an eggshell finish and is more suited specifically to copper. Future is a gloss finish, and not too much for scale.

[DelF]

I used this car lacquer on Speedy. I was worried it might be too glossy, but it dried with a nice sheen, and has kept the copper tarnish free:

 

[mugje]

Looks even bigger with the copper! Cool 😁

 

I understand for the final box photos the copper needs to be clear and even. Personally...i like when it immediately gets its own patina, it gives a nice weathered look. 

 

 

[DocRob]

12 hours ago, James H said:

I do have several bottles of that stuff, but I'm thinking something that imparts an eggshell finish and is more suited specifically to copper. Future is a gloss finish, and not too much for scale.

I use Pledge/Future a lot for clear coating. I alter the shininess with the addition of Tamiya's flat clear acrylic. Never add more than 30% flat clear, as it appears milky/cloudy above this rate and spray in fine layers.

I add a link which explains ehat you have to expect with different mixing ratios. It originates from the very talented designer and builder fichtenfoo and meets my experiences.

 

Clear Coats with Future Floor Acrylic – FichtenFoo

 

Cheers Rob

[James H]

5 minutes ago, DocRob said:

I use Pledge/Future a lot for clear coating. I alter the shininess with the addition of Tamiya's flat clear acrylic. Never add more than 30% flat clear, as it appears milky/cloudy above this rate and spray in fine layers.

I add a link which explains ehat you have to expect with different mixing ratios. It originates from the very talented designer and builder fichtenfoo and meets my experiences.

 

Clear Coats with Future Floor Acrylic – FichtenFoo

 

Cheers Rob

 

That's real useful info. I might just go with that!