uss frolick Posted August 7, 2023 Share #121 Posted August 7, 2023 Seriously. The Cumberland, Boston's "other famous frigate", is very well documented with deck plans, inboard profiles and sail plans as an 1856 corvette-conversion, from the US National Archives (which I do possess.) Even Howard Chapelle called her "magnificent". The last American frigate to go into battle under sail (at Fort Hatteras, 1861), she fought the Ironclad Virginia in March 1862 for forty minutes, and sank with her colors flying and her guns firing. 121 brave sailors lost. Canute, thibaultron and chris watton 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris watton Posted August 7, 2023 Author Share #122 Posted August 7, 2023 Mid-19th Century has little appeal for me, am more of a 17th and 18th Century aesthetic kind of guy! KentM, Blue Ensign, thibaultron and 8 others 11 Vanguard Models on Facebook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Ensign Posted August 7, 2023 Share #123 Posted August 7, 2023 I’m so in tune with that aesthetic Chris, 17th/18th c is my favourite period. Love your idea of a Royal George. One of my most cherished watercolour prints by Derek Gardner, a great subject for a model. B.E. BenD, Rustyj, targa4403 and 11 others 14 Current Build: Medway-longboat-1742-by-blue-ensign-½”-scale Completed builds: HMS Indefatigable-1794-by-blue-ensign-vanguard-models-1:64-scale HMS Sphinx 1775 by Blue Ensign. 1:64 scale - Vanguard Models Queen-Anne-Royal-Barge-circa-1700-by-Blue-Ensign Fifie fishing boat Lady Eleanor Muirneag-1903-–-a-scottish-zulu-fishing-boat-164-scale-based-on-the-vanguard-models-zulu-kit/ HM Cutter Alert 1777 HM Cutter Cheerful 1806 18th-century-English-longboat-by-Blue-Ensign-ms-148-scale/ 18thc English Pinnace by Blue Ensign-Model-Shipways-1:24 scale/ HMS-Pegasus-by-Blue-Ensign-finished-Victory-Models-1:64-scale/ Heller Seventy-four 1:150 scale - modified Le Superbe/Le Glorieux kit after Boudriot, waterline setting with sails. The schooner Pickle, Jotika pob kit 1:64 scale, my interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris watton Posted August 7, 2023 Author Share #124 Posted August 7, 2023 It is a great looking ship, and quite formidable in her time, as the French found out at the Battle of Quiberon Bay (1759). Can't wait to see how much that figurehead will cost me.... Nirvana, Rustyj, markjay and 8 others 11 Vanguard Models on Facebook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris watton Posted August 9, 2023 Author Share #125 Posted August 9, 2023 I have been progressing with a small/medium kit before plunging into another long term development. All designs/laser cut files are done, including three PE sheets, and now I am working on drawings. Once all drawings are complete, I shall start building the model for the manual, and may do a build log. This is the gun brig Adder, of the Acute Class of 1797. My two main sources state it is a 14 gun brig, 12 x 18 pounder carronades and 2 x 24 pounders in the bow - but they may have been 12 gun brigs, as the only way to get the extra two carronades in position is to fill the stern chaser ports. Thukydides, Rustyj, Swinging the lead and 30 others 31 2 Vanguard Models on Facebook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanDavison Posted August 9, 2023 Share #126 Posted August 9, 2023 A intriguing layout. The 24 pounders look as though they would be difficult to control, especially as the breaching ropes either side of the gun would have to be of such different lengths. I can see the gun slewing all over the place when recoiling. Might not the guns be mounted on rails or sledges to stop this? AJohnson, chris watton, mgatrost and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris watton Posted August 9, 2023 Author Share #127 Posted August 9, 2023 (edited) 32 minutes ago, AlanDavison said: A intriguing layout. The 24 pounders look as though they would be difficult to control, especially as the breaching ropes either side of the gun would have to be of such different lengths. I can see the gun slewing all over the place when recoiling. Might not the guns be mounted on rails or sledges to stop this? I thought that, but I still feel this is too early for such carriages, and I suspect later gun brigs changed to sliding carriages as a result of the lessons learned from these 2nd generation vessels. Also, it looks like the second gun port from the front was for the long guns, so they would need to be moved. ETA - Plus the fact that fore deck droops down means that it must have been designed that way specifically for carriage mounted guns, presumably to lessen the recoil. Edited August 9, 2023 by chris watton CiscoH, Canute, mtaylor and 7 others 10 Vanguard Models on Facebook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uss frolick Posted August 9, 2023 Share #128 Posted August 9, 2023 Seems more likely that they would have cut an additional pair of ports aft the main-chains, than to permanently arm the stern ports. mtaylor, Canute and thibaultron 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realworkingsailor Posted August 9, 2023 Share #129 Posted August 9, 2023 50 minutes ago, uss frolick said: Seems more likely that they would have cut an additional pair of ports aft the main-chains, than to permanently arm the stern ports. I dunno, given that this appears to be a ship designed for a specific task/roll, (get a lot of guns into shallow waters, close to shore), it’s quite possible that some of the conventions that we’re familiar with don’t apply. Just my observation. Andy Canute, egkb, mtaylor and 3 others 6 Quando Omni Flunkus, Moritati Current Build: USF Confederacy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris watton Posted August 10, 2023 Author Share #130 Posted August 10, 2023 (edited) If I added an extra gun port aft of the main channels when every plan of the Acute Class (and there are a lot of them) does not show this, then it would no longer be an accurate (or as near as damn it) representation of an Acute Class gun brig, but fantasy. As Andy points out, it seems the fore deck was designed specifically for carriage guns, to minimise the recoil of the carriage. The drop down at the fore deck is significant. Having said that about the plans, they did 'Troll' me in one area, the main channels and mast. On the main profile the main mast is a couple of feet forward of where it is indicated on the deck and cutaway profile plans. I always use the main profile for the hull and major fittings and the deck for the deck fittings positions) . However, when I fitted the fore most main channel to my model, which secured just one chainplate, I realised this single channel was too far forward (just aft of the side steps) of the main mast (how did I miss this when drawing the parts..). The deck and side cutaway profile chainplates/channels are not the same as the main lines plan. Easy enough fix, though, I just had to re do the aft most main channel to incorporate and extra chainplate slot. The rudder appears to have two tillers, the lower one I assume was fitted with the tackle for the wheel, running under the upper deck, and the upper tiller having an auxiliary role Edited August 10, 2023 by chris watton Canute, ccoyle, AJohnson and 5 others 8 Vanguard Models on Facebook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
druxey Posted August 10, 2023 Share #131 Posted August 10, 2023 The deck 'droop' at the bow was called - wait for it - camber. (Deck beams and decks 'round up'; decks do not camber across.) The usual reason for this forward droop was so that the cables came aboard above the deck without the hawesholes being placed to interfere with either headwork or a wale. In this case it would help control recoil. Chuck Seiler, thibaultron, Canute and 2 others 5 Be sure to sign up for an epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series http://trafalgar.tv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris watton Posted August 10, 2023 Author Share #132 Posted August 10, 2023 Here are the channel changes, from one plan to the next, plus the downward 'camber' at the bow. Ronald-V, mtaylor, ccoyle and 9 others 12 Vanguard Models on Facebook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnl Posted August 10, 2023 Share #133 Posted August 10, 2023 It looks like the stern chase guns would impede the tiller range of motion. Also one view seems to show a tiller and a wheel while the side view shows only a tiller, and one that seems to be raised for convenient use. thibaultron, chris watton, mtaylor and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realworkingsailor Posted August 10, 2023 Share #134 Posted August 10, 2023 58 minutes ago, mnl said: It looks like the stern chase guns would impede the tiller range of motion. Not as much as you might think. The effective range of a ship’s rudder is somewhere in the nature of 30 to 35 degrees port or starboard. Any further and the rudder begins to act as a brake, and any gains in turning speed is offset by more dramatic losses in forward movement, a critical factor in turning a square rigged ship to be able to miss getting caught in stays. Andy mtaylor, Kevin, Canute and 8 others 11 Quando Omni Flunkus, Moritati Current Build: USF Confederacy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris watton Posted August 10, 2023 Author Share #135 Posted August 10, 2023 (edited) The upper tiller was an auxiliary, as there is another tiller arm that runs below the upper deck (which is operated with the ships wheel). So the upper tiller arm may not have been fitted in place if not required. Edited August 10, 2023 by chris watton mtaylor, Canute and thibaultron 3 Vanguard Models on Facebook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
druxey Posted August 10, 2023 Share #136 Posted August 10, 2023 Presumably for emergency use only if the wheel were disabled. mtaylor, thibaultron, Canute and 1 other 4 Be sure to sign up for an epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series http://trafalgar.tv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris watton Posted August 10, 2023 Author Share #137 Posted August 10, 2023 9 minutes ago, druxey said: Presumably for emergency use only if the wheel were disabled. That is my thinking. I am also thinking that perhaps the chasers had some kind of 'chock' along the bow that touched the front trucks/wheels. Oboship, AJohnson, thibaultron and 3 others 6 Vanguard Models on Facebook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vane Posted August 10, 2023 Share #138 Posted August 10, 2023 I cant say its a beauty like the Speedy, but its good to have some more odd kits to build as well. I was always thinking you might do a Bomb vessel at some point, but this gun brig is definitely unique and it will be really interesting to see how it turns out when finished! chris watton, AJohnson, Canute and 3 others 6 Current builds: HMS Victory (Corel 1:98), HMS Snake (Caldercraft 1:64), HMBV Granado (Caldercraft 1:64), HMS Diana (Caldercraft 1:64), HMS Speedy (Vanguard Models 1:64) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris watton Posted August 10, 2023 Author Share #139 Posted August 10, 2023 2 minutes ago, Vane said: I cant say its a beauty like the Speedy, but its good to have some more odd kits to build as well. I was always thinking you might do a Bomb vessel at some point, but this gun brig is definitely unique and it will be really interesting to see how it turns out when finished! Funny you say that, I have considered more than once whilst developing this if it's worth continuing, and abandoning the development, as it's not exactly a looker... Vane, Canute, Oboship and 4 others 7 Vanguard Models on Facebook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJohnson Posted August 10, 2023 Share #140 Posted August 10, 2023 Beauty is in the eye of the beholder! 😜 If ever I bought from another manufacturer, cough, 😱 it would be for an unusual ship like a mortar/bomb vessel. Partly why I leapt at the Trial when it came out, just something different to the usual suspects we see built. If you can make these “oddballs” commercially viable all power to you Chris, I like seeing them being developed. chris watton, mtaylor, thibaultron and 6 others 9 Andrew Current builds:- HM Gun-brig Sparkler - Vanguard (1/64) , HMAV Bounty - Caldercraft (1/64) Completed (Kits):- Vanguard Models (1/64) :- HM Cutter Trial , Nisha - Brixham trawler Caldercraft (1/64) :- HMS Orestes(Mars), HM Cutter Sherbourne Paper Shipwright (1/250) :- TSS Earnslaw, Puffer Starlight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vane Posted August 10, 2023 Share #141 Posted August 10, 2023 The first kit people buy is usually something they find to "look good" on the shelf. However, the more they build the more they start to look for doing something different. From a general selling point of view, I think you will benefit from having a variarity of Royal Navy kits to offer your customers. And so far I think you have managed that quite well! And it is always exciting to see what comes next. Canute, hollowneck, AJohnson and 5 others 8 Current builds: HMS Victory (Corel 1:98), HMS Snake (Caldercraft 1:64), HMBV Granado (Caldercraft 1:64), HMS Diana (Caldercraft 1:64), HMS Speedy (Vanguard Models 1:64) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris watton Posted August 10, 2023 Author Share #142 Posted August 10, 2023 (edited) Even my wife loves the Trial Cutter. So much so that she said it can be displayed in the living room, and that;'s where it is. Adder does have a couple of things going for it, it has a nice flat stern, so easy to plank there, and I have done my best to make adding the pre cut bulwarks around the bow as painless as possible - plus you get two full fat 24 pounders! It seems these were not coppered straight away, but on average a year after launch, so I will do the bottom white. Edited September 12, 2023 by chris watton DB789, Vane, druxey and 10 others 8 3 2 Vanguard Models on Facebook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vane Posted August 10, 2023 Share #143 Posted August 10, 2023 (edited) I think your wife will put the adder in the garage... or in your mancave! 😛 Edited August 10, 2023 by Vane thibaultron, Oboship, mtaylor and 4 others 2 5 Current builds: HMS Victory (Corel 1:98), HMS Snake (Caldercraft 1:64), HMBV Granado (Caldercraft 1:64), HMS Diana (Caldercraft 1:64), HMS Speedy (Vanguard Models 1:64) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uss frolick Posted August 10, 2023 Share #144 Posted August 10, 2023 I recall reading the Admiralty Court of Enquiry for the loss of HMS Levant, 20, in 1815 when she and HMS Cyane fought the USS Constitution, that the crew was unable to shift their two long nine pounders to the stern chase position, because the sloop was unable to steer with them in place. This was after the Cyane had surrendered, and the shattered Levant was trying to escape. Chapman, mtaylor, Canute and 3 others 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanDavison Posted August 11, 2023 Share #145 Posted August 11, 2023 Chris, From something I recently read, these gun brigs were rowed when inshore in shallow water. Perhaps the tiller was used to steer when rowing? The wheel being used when under sail in deeper water and using the drop boards. You might consider providing a set of oars in the kit, as this would make an interesting display, what do you think? thibaultron, AJohnson, mtaylor and 3 others 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris watton Posted August 11, 2023 Author Share #146 Posted August 11, 2023 (edited) Oars would add a little more expense, as they would be a whole sheet of pear, and the pear sheet count is already very high for what I hope was a £240 kit. It is something I have thought of, however, so will see. I still may put it on hold anyway. Edited August 11, 2023 by chris watton Canute, Guyuti, Ronald-V and 3 others 6 Vanguard Models on Facebook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris watton Posted September 17, 2023 Author Share #147 Posted September 17, 2023 Just thought I would mention on here - Vanguard Models will be shut From Saturday 23rd September until 7th October. The last date for kit orders is Tuesday 19th September and for small package postal orders, Thursday 21st September. Orders made after closure will be processed upon re-opening. I am being made to take a two week vacation, first in 8 years! hollowneck, Blue Ensign, GrandpaPhil and 24 others 27 Vanguard Models on Facebook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn-UK Posted September 17, 2023 Share #148 Posted September 17, 2023 Enjoy your well earned holiday, you deserve a break dunnock, chris watton, mtaylor and 4 others 7 Glenn (UK) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glbarlow Posted September 17, 2023 Share #149 Posted September 17, 2023 Yay! Enjoy the time off! mtaylor, thibaultron, hollowneck and 3 others 6 Regards, Glenn Current Build: Don't know yet. Completed Builds: HMS Winchelsea HM Flirt (paused) HM Cutter Cheerful, Lady Nelson, Amati HMS Vanguard, HMS Pegasus, Fair American, HM Granado, HM Pickle, AVS, Pride of Baltimore, Bluenose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hollowneck Posted September 17, 2023 Share #150 Posted September 17, 2023 17 minutes ago, glbarlow said: Yay! Enjoy the time off! Here! Here! thibaultron, mtaylor, Canute and 2 others 5 Ron Director, Nautical Research Guild Secretary/Newsletter Editor, Philadelphia Ship Model Society Former Member/Secretary for the Connecticut Marine Model Society Current Build: Grace & Peace (Wyoming, 6-masted Schooner) Completed Builds: HMS Grecian, HMS Sphinx (as HMS Camilla) Ongakuka Maru, (Higaki Kaisen, It Takes A Village), Le Tigre Privateer, HMS Swan, HMS Godspeed, HMS Ardent, HMS Diana, Russian brig Mercury, Elizabethan Warship Revenge, Xebec Syf'Allah, USF Confederacy, HMS Granado, USS Brig Syren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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