Chris Watton and Vanguard Models news and updates Volume 2

[mugje]

Congratulations on your succes Chris! Working on your Sphinx now...your succes doesn't suprise me when I see the quality of it in comparison with the more traditional manufacturers, but take care in managing you and your wife's energy  

Edited November 4, 2023 by mugje

[chris watton]

Cheers guys

 

Of course, I cannot please everyone all the time, and will always have someone not happy. Here is a snippet of an email I received earlier this week:

"I have now decided on the Sphinx kit and the kit was delivered today from a German dealer. I have to be honest but very surprised that the cannons are included in the kit in plastic. For a kit that costs 1000, - €, this is really not acceptable. Is this how the kit is delivered by you? Also, the anchors in plastic do not correspond to the otherwise flawless level of the kit."

 

Well, I did initially offer metal cannon and anchors for Alert. The problem was that the cannon were actually oval in shape, and the monogram just a blob, and the anchor was rectangular in profile, rather than square, plus the hole for the ring was no longer a hole, and both had mismatch. Also, the octagonal winch for the Alert shrunk so much, it no longer fitted, plus that too was 'squashed'. I threw the whole lot away and initially went for cast resin, followed by 3-d printed resin. I guess the customer thinks that 'plastic' is a cheap and quick way to rip off the customer, rather than a new technology to more accurately represent the original parts, with zero shrinkage, no mismatch, and every hole perfect. The 9-Pounder cannon for Sphinx takes 3.5 hours to 3-d print 5 kits worth. In that same time, 100 kits worth can be produced if cast. Same applies to the stern decoration, which takes 7 hours to 3-d print, and you keep all the definition that is on the master file, rather than a blob of metal that wouldn't even pass muster for a children’s Clair's Accessories shop.

 

On a personal note, I really have never cared too much about the material used for parts, as long as the end result looks right.

 

I did originally sub contract the cast and 3-d printed resin parts, which was far from cheap. For example, a single 32 pounder cannon barrel cost 1 Euro. I think some do not differentiate between high volume injection moulded plastic and much lower volume cast or 3-d printed resin. 
 

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by chris watton

[Blue Ensign]

Obviously someone  not up to speed in the latest developments in ship modelling, or who read any of the blurb before buying.

 

I imagine that those fine craftsmen of the 18th century would have been highly delighted with plastic and resin had it been available at the time, at least for some of their  requirements, they used what was available.

 

B.E.

[Thukydides]

26 minutes ago, chris watton said:

On a personal note, I really have never cared too much about the material used for parts, as long as the end result looks right.

I am of the same mind. In fact I often prefer plastic to represent metal as it is easier to get things to scale and then I can paint it to look like metal.

 

You are doing a great job Chris, I have nothing but good things to say about your kits speaking as a first time builder. I am glad to see that you are having so much success as demonstrated by the high demand for your kits.

[glbarlow]

I actually found the old cast metal cannons the cheapest part of older kits, they never looked at all good. The new technology “plastic” ones finish so much better primed, painted with acrylic, and weathered, and much more realistic fitted out properly.  
 

As you said, can’t please everyone, especially the uniformed.

Edited November 4, 2023 by glbarlow

[Toolmaker]

Ignoring any issues about import and export when buying model ships I think Chris has done more recently than anyone to retain newcomers to the hobby. A few years ago I cut my teeth on a number of Vanguard kits and whenever I see that question about suitable kits for beginners I always advise starting with a Vanguard kit. It makes even more sense if your this side of the Atlantic pond, hence my opening line.

Chris has taken top quality materials and used the latest technologies to provide the best chance of fulfilment. Together with those fab instructions put together by James H and you have a truly winning combination. I hope he continues to have belief in himself and in his decision making. 
Believe it or not, I don’t work for Vanguard 😂. In fact, I don’t build their kits these days but without them I don’t believe I would have got to what I am building now.

Cheers Chris, keep going, it’s a fine legacy.

 

Thanks

Paul

[JeffT]

1 hour ago, chris watton said:

Cheers guys

 

Of course, I cannot please everyone all the time, and will always have someone not happy. Here is a snippet of an email I received earlier this week:

"I have now decided on the Sphinx kit and the kit was delivered today from a German dealer. I have to be honest but very surprised that the cannons are included in the kit in plastic. For a kit that costs 1000, - €, this is really not acceptable. Is this how the kit is delivered by you? Also, the anchors in plastic do not correspond to the otherwise flawless level of the kit."

 

 

 

Well why not put cannons in the box that actually fire?

[Clark]

2 hours ago, chris watton said:

Cheers guys

 

Of course, I cannot please everyone all the time, and will always have someone not happy. Here is a snippet of an email I received earlier this week:

"I have now decided on the Sphinx kit and the kit was delivered today from a German dealer. I have to be honest but very surprised that the cannons are included in the kit in plastic. For a kit that costs 1000, - €, this is really not acceptable. Is this how the kit is delivered by you? Also, the anchors in plastic do not correspond to the otherwise flawless level of the kit."

 

Well, I did initially offer metal cannon and anchors for Alert. The problem was that the cannon were actually oval in shape, and the monogram just a blob, and the anchor was rectangular in profile, rather than square, plus the hole for the ring was no longer a hole, and both had mismatch. Also, the octagonal winch for the Alert shrunk so much, it no longer fitted, plus that too was 'squashed'. I threw the whole lot away and initially went for cast resin, followed by 3-d printed resin. I guess the customer thinks that 'plastic' is a cheap and quick way to rip off the customer, rather than a new technology to more accurately represent the original parts, with zero shrinkage, no mismatch, and every hole perfect. The 9-Pounder cannon for Sphinx takes 3.5 hours to 3-d print 5 kits worth. In that same time, 100 kits worth can be produced if cast. Same applies to the stern decoration, which takes 7 hours to 3-d print, and you keep all the definition that is on the master file, rather than a blob of metal that wouldn't even pass muster for a children’s Clair's Accessories shop.

 

On a personal note, I really have never cared too much about the material used for parts, as long as the end result looks right.

 

I did originally sub contract the cast and 3-d printed resin parts, which was far from cheap. For example, a single 32 pounder cannon barrel cost 1 Euro. I think some do not differentiate between high volume injection moulded plastic and much lower volume cast or 3-d printed resin. 
 

 

I'm also busy with the Sphinx at the moment, or rather it's keeping me busy. The cannons are of excellent quality and can be perfectly restored to their 18th century condition with enamel paints and a little powder.

 

[usedtosail]

Chris, congratulations on your success and the growing pains that go with it. I am sure you will be able to get them all worked out. I hope you can get back to the design tasks, as I have the feeling those are your real passion. And I can't wait to see the new designs. Your kits are so much fun to build.

[Vane]

5 hours ago, chris watton said:

Cheers guys

 

Of course, I cannot please everyone all the time, and will always have someone not happy. Here is a snippet of an email I received earlier this week:

"I have now decided on the Sphinx kit and the kit was delivered today from a German dealer. I have to be honest but very surprised that the cannons are included in the kit in plastic. For a kit that costs 1000, - €, this is really not acceptable. Is this how the kit is delivered by you? Also, the anchors in plastic do not correspond to the otherwise flawless level of the kit."

 

Well, I did initially offer metal cannon and anchors for Alert. The problem was that the cannon were actually oval in shape, and the monogram just a blob, and the anchor was rectangular in profile, rather than square, plus the hole for the ring was no longer a hole, and both had mismatch. Also, the octagonal winch for the Alert shrunk so much, it no longer fitted, plus that too was 'squashed'. I threw the whole lot away and initially went for cast resin, followed by 3-d printed resin. I guess the customer thinks that 'plastic' is a cheap and quick way to rip off the customer, rather than a new technology to more accurately represent the original parts, with zero shrinkage, no mismatch, and every hole perfect. The 9-Pounder cannon for Sphinx takes 3.5 hours to 3-d print 5 kits worth. In that same time, 100 kits worth can be produced if cast. Same applies to the stern decoration, which takes 7 hours to 3-d print, and you keep all the definition that is on the master file, rather than a blob of metal that wouldn't even pass muster for a children’s Clair's Accessories shop.

 

On a personal note, I really have never cared too much about the material used for parts, as long as the end result looks right.

 

I did originally sub contract the cast and 3-d printed resin parts, which was far from cheap. For example, a single 32 pounder cannon barrel cost 1 Euro. I think some do not differentiate between high volume injection moulded plastic and much lower volume cast or 3-d printed resin. 
 

 

The content of the kit is clearly explained at the website so that customer hasnt read what he is buying....

However, I think he just had gotten the wrong idea what Vanguard is all about. Shipmodelling has for decades been very traditional. Plywood, walnut and cast metal that many times looks quite bad. Even though a metal barrel might feel more genuine.. its not like you are going to fire them. As I understand, Vanguard is about re-inventing shipmodelling, using new materials and solutions in order to make models more accurate and also more easy to build where most companies just give you instructions how to carve out things from rectangular wooden blocks. I cant say I like all of your soilutions. But I definitely enjoy seeing the constant new designs. And when it is time to buy a new kit, I cant really see me going for something else than a Vanguard kit again.        

[DB789]

Chris, as a relative newcomer to the hobby (a year and a half and almost seven boats built, all Vanguard and mostly fishers), I’m certain I’d not have got into boat building without your superb range of kits and indeed Jim’s excellent instructions and build logs. I will always be very grateful and I can’t see why I’d ever buy a kit from another manufacturer and risk almost certain disappointment. It’s fantastic to hear how well your business is going. 
 

I think your kits are absolutely excellent and clearly differentiated from competitors. Personally, I’d happily pay significantly more for them, I appreciate that not everyone can afford to and there’s always a tricky balance between price and volume of sales. I probably won’t be popular on MSW for saying it, but possibly increasing prices, reducing volumes sold and growing your margin could give you a similar level of profits and free up some of your time from manufacturing so you can design new kits. 
 

Dan

[chris watton]

Again, thank you so much for all of your kind comments, they do mean a lot to me, and helps reaffirm my enthusiasm for the hobby. I know that my products and business live or die based mostly on word of mouth, they are very low volume compared to the main players, as it takes much longer to produce each kit, and the pear is not as plentiful as standard kit wood, always having to order 2-3 months in advance for the quantities I need.

 

Anyway, another thing I forgot to mention is that I have produced a few sets specifically for 18-gun brigs, and only because at some point, I shall produce my own 18 gun brig. I have a set of armament, 16 x 32 pounder carronades (1795-1815), with laser cut pear carriages, 3-d printed barrel and carriage wheels (like on Indy, Grecian and Trial Cutter), and 2 x 6 pounder long guns (Blomfield). No etch to go with them, but I could include the small copper eyelets. If there's any interest in this set, let me know.

 

I added a 32nd scale cannon crew set to the product list, as I do plan to produce a cannon diorama at some point.

 

Finally, Midwest Model Shop emailed me late last night, with a link wo a first impressions review of our diminutive Saucy Jack (Not sponsered by me, he ordered and paid full price just like anyone else - I didn't even know he was doing this until be sent the link):
 

 

 

Edited November 7, 2023 by chris watton

[Blue Ensign]

Nice one, I think Chantelle is going to need some extra help packing all those extra orders you will hopefully receive.👍

 

B.E.

[AJohnson]

7 hours ago, chris watton said:

Anyway, another thing I forgot to mention is that I have produced a few sets specifically for 18-gun brigs, and only because at some point, I shall produce my own 18 gun brig. I have a set of armament, 16 x 32 pounder carronades (1795-1815), with laser cut pear carriages, 3-d printed barrel and carriage wheels (like on Indy, Grecian and Trial Cutter), and 2 x 6 pounder long guns (Blomfield). No etch to go with them, but I could include the small copper eyelets. If there's any interest in this set, let me know.

 

I added a 32nd scale cannon crew set to the product list, as I do plan to produce a cannon diorama at some point.

Hi Chris, now that is interesting, I have in my stash an old Caldercraft HMS Snake that I intend to kit-bash into HMS Scylla c.1830.  I am mostly just doing research at this stage and had been thinking about the armament amongst other things, so yes, I would be interested in that and any other 18 gun Brig accessories that might become available when you develop your kit in the future.  All of this could be completely derailed depending on when your HMS Surprise appears! 😆

Edited November 7, 2023 by AJohnson

[goetzi73]

On 11/4/2023 at 1:42 PM, chris watton said:

Cheers guys

 

Of course, I cannot please everyone all the time, and will always have someone not happy. Here is a snippet of an email I received earlier this week:

You shouldn't care. It's some kind of "typical german" behavoiur: Nagging all the time.

[allanyed]

On 11/4/2023 at 2:23 PM, Vane said:

Plywood, walnut and cast metal that many times looks quite bad. Even though a metal barrel might feel more genuine.. its not like you are going to fire them.

This is very well said.  There are few, if any, kits that have the correct gun pattern for a given date/nationality but to have the tooling to cast them in metal in all sizes and scales would cost a fortune.  With 3D printing all one needs is a drawing that is accurate in pattern, and size.  Details like the cypher are easy to include that are correct for the era and nationality.  Another common error is that the lengths are often the stated length, ie: 8 foot, 9 foot, etc, rather than the correct overall length which is longer.

 

I understand the use of plywood for some things including bulkheads, false decks and similar parts but not where the laminations can be seen such as the keel, knee of the head and similar parts.  Walnut may be more tradition in kit models even though it is porous, often brittle, and generally looks awful compared to very nice tight grained species that some kit makers such as Vanguard are using.  It also may be a matter of cost as well as, or instead of, tradition.

 

Allan

 

  

[Mercator]

Indeed plastic offer more details than metal casting, 3D printing can be costly and time consuming. There is a plethora of paints to reproduce metal, from Vallejo to Alclad (one of my favorite being lacquer based). Those paint applied with an airbrush produce much better result than any cast metal canons . 

I have build a couple of Vanguard fishing boats, a nice way to get into wood ship building. Now I have almost finished the Duchess of Kingston, someone nervous about starting on the ratlines (there are so many of them). So taking a break and working on a 1/8 scale of Joan Of Arc figurine, I am use Alclad magnesium for the armor, very happy with the result. They recommend to prime first but I sprayed  over the resin parts without problems (it is a 3D figurine available in 1/16, 1/12, 1/10, 1/8 and 1/4 scales).

Keep up the amazing work Chris, there will always be someone complaining about something that is the downside of running a business, you learn to have a thick skin.

[Oboship]

4 hours ago, goetzi73 said:

You shouldn't care. It's some kind of "typical german" behavoiur: Nagging all the time.

Soo true...🙃

[Oboship]

12 hours ago, chris watton said:

Again, thank you so much for all of your kind comments, they do mean a lot to me, and helps reaffirm my enthusiasm for the hobby. I know that my products and business live or die based mostly on word of mouth, they are very low volume compared to the main players, as it takes much longer to produce each kit, and the pear is not as plentiful as standard kit wood, always having to order 2-3 months in advance for the quantities I need.

 

Anyway, another thing I forgot to mention is that I have produced a few sets specifically for 18-gun brigs, and only because at some point, I shall produce my own 18 gun brig. I have a set of armament, 16 x 32 pounder carronades (1795-1815), with laser cut pear carriages, 3-d printed barrel and carriage wheels (like on Indy, Grecian and Trial Cutter), and 2 x 6 pounder long guns (Blomfield). No etch to go with them, but I could include the small copper eyelets. If there's any interest in this set, let me know.

 

I added a 32nd scale cannon crew set to the product list, as I do plan to produce a cannon diorama at some point.

 

Finally, Midwest Model Shop emailed me late last night, with a link wo a first impressions review of our diminutive Saucy Jack (Not sponsered by me, he ordered and paid full price just like anyone else - I didn't even know he was doing this until be sent the link):
 

 

 

Chris' kits could not be recommended any better; since I know the contents and quality of the four Vanguard kits I have, I fully agree to the video's description of "Saucy Jack". Can't wait to see further Vanguard kits!

[allanyed]

4 hours ago, Mercator said:

3D printing can be costly and time consuming

My only experience with 3D printing is for cannon.  I emailed drawings to a one man print shop in another part of the US and had 20 perfect barrels for $15, including freight, in a matter of days.   I am curious to know what other parts would lend themselves to 3D in addition to barrels and maybe anchors where metal would have been used in reality.  I cannot see myself using 3D printed resin for anything that would have been made of wood though.

Allan

 

 

 

[chris watton]

A little update:

 

I am still very busy, and have just completed another batch of Sphinx laser cut parts. After that was complete, I moved onto the new cannon and carriages (including carronades), which I am almost finished laser cutting and 3-d printing. I will paste the full list of cannon and carronades I will offer below - the carronades are now sold in pairs, instead of singles.

 

Once these are done, I need to produce more Indy stuff, as we are now getting very short of some parts. And after that, I can finally produce my laser cut part for my little kits, so I can get those prototype models finished. I have already completed all of the plans for them, but cannot continue until I have cut the prototype laser cut parts.

 

Here is the full list for cannon and carronades I now offer (I am still waiting for the PE for the early 12 pounder carronade, which will be back in stock as soon as the sheets arrive):

 

New and updates cannon and carriage kits - Cap Square now integrated with carriage sides

All Sets are priced per pair and all 1:64^th Scale. Laser cut pear and 3-D printed barrels

Armstrong 3-Pounder cannon (Barrel overall length - 24mm) - £4.20

Armstrong 4-Pounder cannon (Barrel overall length - 29mm) - £4.40

Blomefield 4-Pounder cannon (Barrel overall length - 29mm) - £4.40

Armstrong 6 pounder, 6 ½ feet length (Barrel overall length – 34.4mm) - £5.00

Armstrong 6 pounder, 7 ½ feet length (Barrel overall length – 39mm) - £5.30

Blomefield 6-Pounder, 6 feet length (Barrel overall length – 31.4mm) - £5.00

Blomefield 6-Pounder, 7 ½ feet length (Barrel overall length – 38.5mm) - £5.30

Armstrong 9 pounder, 7 feet length (Barrel overall length – 37.2mm) - £5.80

Armstrong 9 pounder, 8 ½ feet length (Barrel overall length – 44.4mm) - £6.00

Blomefield 9-Pounder, 7 feet length (Barrel overall length – 36.5mm) - £5.80

Blomefield 9-Pounder, 8 ½ feet length (Barrel overall length – 43.6mm) - £6.00

Armstrong 12 pounder, 7 ½ feet length (Barrel overall length – 40mm) - £8.30

Armstrong 12 pounder, 9 feet length (Barrel overall length – 47.2mm) - £9.00

Blomefield 12 pounder, 7 ½ feet length (Barrel overall length – 39.1mm) - £8.30

Blomefield 12 pounder, 9 feet length (Barrel overall length – 46.25mm) - £9.00

Armstrong 18 pounder, 8 feet length (Barrel overall length – 42mm) - £8.30

Armstrong 18 pounder, 9 feet length (Barrel overall length – 47.8mm) - £9.00

Blomefield 18 pounder, 8 feet length (Barrel overall length – 41.8mm) - £8.30

Blomefield 18 pounder, 9 feet length (Barrel overall length – 46.6mm) - £9.00

Armstrong 24 pounder, 9 ½ feet length (Barrel overall length – 50.6mm) - £11.00

Blomefield 24 pounder, 9 feet length (Barrel overall length – 47mm) - £10.50

Blomefield 24 pounder, 9 ½ feet length (Barrel overall length – 49.3mm) - £11.00

Armstrong 32 pounder, 9 ½ feet length (Barrel overall length – 51.2mm) - £12.50

 

 

New Carronade kits (includes 3-d Printed wheels) Now sold in pairs and all to 1:64^th Scale

Laser cut pear and 3-D printed barrels and wheels

Carronade – 12-Pounder (Barrel overall length – 18mm) - £7.00

Carronade – 18-Pounder (Barrel overall length – 20.5mm) £7.50

Carronade – 24-Pounder (Barrel overall length – 22.5mm) £8.00

Carronade – 32-Pounder (Barrel overall length – 24.8mm) £8.50

Carronade – 42-Pounder (Barrel overall length – 27.3mm) £9.00

[Keith_W]

Chris, you need to press gang your kids to work for you so that you can free up some time to get back to what you are really good at, which is designing models! Are you working on anything new right now? 

[chris watton]

6 hours ago, Keith_W said:

Chris, you need to press gang your kids to work for you so that you can free up some time to get back to what you are really good at, which is designing models! Are you working on anything new right now? 

I do have the gun brig Adder and another small kit that will soon be released in the new year (All they need is the prototypes building and then manual completed, as everything else is done, designs, cut files, plans etc.) -  and yesterday I did make a small start on my 17th kit.

 

ETA - This year hasn't been so bad, with Indy released in March, followed by Grecian and Trial cutter, plus the Speedy rework, which was no small job.

Edited December 5, 2023 by chris watton

[navarcus]

A 17th century kit -- something Sam Pepys may have sailed in?

Something single-footy with ribs showing and gold gilt?

Still no kits out there now for a duffer to do this. 

 

 

[chris watton]

I will do a Restoration Era warship at some point, but because it would be a two year development and also expensive, not for a while, and not while I have a 36 gun 18 pounder Napoleonic frigate itch that needs a desperate scratch at some point before then.

[AJohnson]

2 hours ago, chris watton said:

not for a while, and not while I have a 36 gun 18 pounder Napoleonic frigate itch that needs a desperate scratch at some point before then.

I remember you mentioning that in your bucket list a few months back Chris, are you any closer to deciding which one to do first Phoebe / Amphion or another?

[chris watton]

12 minutes ago, AJohnson said:

I remember you mentioning that in your bucket list a few months back Chris, are you any closer to deciding which one to do first Phoebe / Amphion or another?

Has to be sweet Phoebe, a frigate that seen a lot of action during her career. Almost did this before Indy.

[AJohnson]

Phoebe would be great, goodness knows the hobby needs an alternative kit to the venerable Diana!

[chris watton]

2 minutes ago, AJohnson said:

Phoebe would be great, goodness knows the hobby needs an alternative kit to the venerable Diana!

Around the same size as the Artois Class too, give or take a foot or two.  And being a 36, she would have been armed with the long 18's, whereas the 38's had the short, in general..

 

I always imagined Hornblower's fictional 36, Lydia to be Phoebe Class....

[ASAT]

Chris, any news on Bristol?