Copyright - beware

[dvm27]

I know copyright has been discussed ad-infinitum here but this dovetails into the post by Chuck the other day on pulling photos from the interned and posting them here.

 

There are companies that troll the internet on behalf of photo distributors searching for copyright protected photographs. Once they locate one, they contact the owner and strong arm the offender with threats and a high fee to resolve the grievance.  One of my employees saw a cute photo of a dog with a bandaged leg and put it on our website a while ago. I received a strongly worded e-mail to take it down immediatly and pay them $800 or the fee would continue to rise. I did some research to discover the photo distributor and am in the process of negotiating a settlement, thereby bypassing the heavy-handed third party. 

 

Our web posting protocol has now been heavily modified and, if Chuck seems paranoid about random photos and material, it's because there are people out there looking for such offences and wanting to profit from them. An expensive lesson for me

[dafi]

The same in Germany ...

 

For our german forum we had unfortunately to hide half the building reports and especially the research section for that reason and only can grant access after registration - no remedy but a tiny bit of privacy that makes us less vulnurable.

 

Also NMM requests to always to properly mention the source - as plenty of other sources do. But not just for them, it also makes our own work easier, if one knows where the stuff comes from for further research.

 

Also often pictures from build logs from other forums are used without the source being told. Always unfair to the original maker!

 

Cheers, Daniel

 

http://www.segelschiffsmodellbau.com

Edited January 22, 2016 by dafi

[Erik W]

One good rule of thumb for members of MSW is, if it's not a photo you took yourself, post a link to the photo, rather than the photo itself.  While not as visually pleasing as clicking into a topic with the photos already there, as a viewer you're still only a click away from seeing the photo.  And it saves the hassle of potential copyright issues. 

 

Erik

[CDW]

What a litigious world we live in today. Lots of land mines out there, for sure.

While I'm no lawyer, I wouldn't be surprised if some people/companies use strong-arm tactics to extort money from people whether the law would actually support their claims or not. Just the threat of having to defend yourself in a lawsuit is enough to cause many of us to pay off, just to mitigate the damage.

It is well known there are many such companies out there who will do exactly that.

All that being said, the most sage advice is likely what the previous poster just said...unless you took the picture yourself, don't post it. 

 

Craig

[Chuck]

Very true......I will of course copy and paste this original post by Greg into the topic of Amazing photographs.  We were contacted on two occasions by folks who owned the pictures copied and pasted in their by our members.  Luckily the owner only wanted recognition and we edited the posts to reflect that.

 

We basically have two or three members who just troll the web and facebook for photos and repost them here and it is very dangerous for us.  All attempts to get one of them to stop has been futile.

 

But please do keep this mind.

 

What is socially a fun thing for you to do turns out to be a nightmare for our staff and also frustrates other members who have to look between your posts like this for anything else worthwhile.

 

Chuck

[dafi]

One good hint is that the poster personally can be made reliable for putting up pictures that suddenly get expensive.

 

More easy to claim with a mostly german forum than an international one ...

 

... and it always will stay a hazard for the forum´s crew in especially the owner.

 

Cheers, Daniel

Edited January 22, 2016 by dafi

[Chuck]

To see how funny this isnt.....check out the Amazing Photographs forum......see how much trouble this creates with a recent development that could be costly........

 

http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/2461-amazing-photographs/page-289#entry382024

[overdale]

Very true Chuck.

 

I have found photos of my work lifted from my website (mostly shipwreck models) on other websites. I have no problem with people using them as long as they say where they got them from.

 

I have had requests to use the photos and I always agree as long as there is attribution, but they are mostly from people publishing some sort of report or book where they are already aware of the problems of copyright.

 

Dan.

[Chuck]

Reminder....Official NRG/MSW Policy

 

Photos and plans etc. If you don't own it, or you didn't take the photo yourself........seek permission to post it.  

Or don't post it....  

 

Please give the photo owner credit and post where you got the image from....  If it has a watermark....don't post it unless you include a few words on how you have received permission to post it.

 

If you spot a post that looks like a copyright was violated...please report the post so a moderator can take a look at it. 

Please dont copy and paste photos from other sites without doing your due diligence first.

 

Thank You very much in advance.......repeat offenders will be warned....or worse

 

Kits/Plans/Parts:  If a company/individual is known to have pirated either plans or designs from another source in order to profit from the original authors work...stolen really.  Use of those plans, kits or parts is prohibited on MSW.  Promotion of those pirated plans and or kits and or companies that sell them is also prohibited.  No links may posted to sites that sell or promote pirated products unless approved by admin.

Thank You very much in advance.......repeat offenders will be warned....or worse

[mtdoramike]

There should always be a banner posted on any open forum regarding copyrighted or protected material. People tend to think just because something is posted on the internet, it makes it open season, but it does not, especially when you start quoting people copying and pasting articles and so forth. We like it here and don't want any trouble so's you's guys need to knock it off and either create your own or don't bother.

 

 

mike 

[Chuck]

Thank You....

 

Also keep in mind that "borrowing" photos from Flickr or facebook is never a good idea.   See this link.  

 

Link removed because topic was deleted as planned...

 

Slowly scroll down the page.  You can see how many that are now broken and not doing anything positive for MSW.   You were a busy beaver Crackers.

 

Remember also that this is how photographers make their money.  Its no different than any other business.  Respect the copyrights of others!  Just ask for permission.  99% of the time they will be fine with it.  Just dont be afraid to spend the time to get permission.  

 

Thanks again 

[Cathead]

Here's another reason to be careful reposting pictures: those photos are still hosted on the original server. That means, whenever someone loads a MSW (or any internet) page with a linked photo, the computer goes and grabs it from the original server, creating traffic for that site. Sometimes, reposting a photo that a whole bunch of people see means really elevated traffic for the original site. Great, right? No. Because some sites, especially smaller or personal ones, have bandwidth restrictions based on what they pay for hosting. If a photo on that site suddenly starts getting a ton of traffic, it can bump that site out of its paid bandwidth, and either shut the site down for overuse, or cause the site's owner to get a bill from the hosting company for extra service provided. As someone who manages his own site for business purposes, and has a lot of photography there, this is a real potential problem.

 

The internet is often compared to a plumbing system. In this case reposting photos is a bit like tapping into someone's water line to taste their water. In small doses it often doesn't matter, but 1. it's still stealing, 2. if you add that straw and lots of other people start using it, you're really stealing and driving up their water bill, and 3. it doesn't benefit them because the other drinkers don't realize whose awesome water they're drinking.

 

We all do this from time to time, it's too easy not to. And sometimes it's from a site that really is public domain or otherwise not a problem. But thanks to Chuck for helping us all think about how and why we do it.

[mtdoramike]

I love that analogy cathead.

 

mike

[Jack12477]

Crackers, many years ago I had the opportunity to attend a employer sponsored week-long  R&R type seminar. One of the many speakers was the Chairman of the Copyright and Patent Law department at Columbia University Law College. His talk was on Copyright and Patent law.  He started his talk by giving us the legal definition of Copyright; then to help us understand it better he gave an example. The example was this:

 

"You're a teenager at summer camp,. You go to the camp store, buy a postcard and stamp; on one side you place the stamp and your parent's address, on the other side you write 'Hi Mom and Dad, having a great time at summer camp. Food is great. Love Joey" and you mail the card to your parents."

 

He then explained that what had been written on the postcard was Copyright because it met the definition.  To further illustrate he gave a second example

 

"You go on vacation with your family to one of the National Parks and while there take lots of photographs. When you come home, you take your film (this was pre-digital photography) to the drug store to be developed and printed"   Your printed photographs are now Copyright.

 

He further explained that the circle-C symbol or the word Copyright does not have to be emblazoned on the work - all tho it enhances the protection. The protection exists from the moment you place the work into a media and publish it. And the work does not have to be registered with the US Copyright office - altho that is the best protection - to be Copyright.

 

By his explanation, every photograph, every note to Mom & Dad, every finger painting your kids ever did - all are immediately protected by Copyright.

 

Now I've given a very simplistic example of Copyright but be wary - someone somewhere owns the Copyright - even our own build logs and photos of our models are protected by Copyright - ever notice that Dirk (Dubz) explicitly stamps his photographs with "Copyright Dubz 201x"

 

Now there is the Fair Use Act under Copyright law but that I will leave that to the members to research for themselves.

[flyer]

How about using scanned cut-outs from books?

 

Occasionally I used in a discussion here such parts of books illustrations to  emphasize one point or another. Although I always wrote what book the illustration came from I never had explicit permission from the author. I always thought that I was doing free promotion for those books but I believe now, that I may also have violated copyrights.

 

How do you see that?  

 

peter        

[Jack12477]

Peter, simple answer is it falls under Fair Use Act - Do a Google search on Fair Use Act Copyright Law - it's complicated but you are allowed to make copies for your own use to critique a book, or do research, etc.

 

Example closer to home - you buy a set of ships plans that you intend to use to build a model. You take the original plans and make two copies. You place the original in protective package, you take 1st copy and glue it to build board, you take 2nd copy and cut-out various parts to use as templates. That's permitted under Fair Use. It's for your personal use (note emphasis).

 

BTW I am NOT a lawyer this is a layman's understanding - As an amateur photographer who did publish my photos I did study the topic.

 

On other note I'm talking about United States Copyright Law - other countries are signatories to International Copyright Law and I don't know how it applies outside the United States.

 

For more information on the US Fair Use Act under Copyright Law see this Columbia University link

Edited January 23, 2016 by Jack12477

[Jim Lad]

Just to make life more interesting, remember that this is an international forum - although copyright is recognised world wide, the copyright laws of individual countries vary in detail.

 

John

[overdale]

"How about using scanned cut-outs from books?"

 

 

 

It's a very confused subject Peter. I think there is a clause in copyright means you can reproduce for your own personal use, but it's not that clear.

When I was at art school we had an entire day devoted to teaching us the copyright laws. None of us left that classroom any the wiser.. (Not that we were particularly wise to start with!)

 

I have noticed at my local Staples that when I ask for something to be photocopied from a book I own they sometimes ask 'is it my drawing', did I write the book?'  all sorts of bizarre questions that clearly indicate they don't understand the copyright laws either.

 

Dan.

Edited January 23, 2016 by overdale

[CDW]

Now here is another layman's take on it...if the original artist or owner does not take action to stop illegal use of their copyright material, they can actually lose their rights to it. At least that's what I've been given to understand when asking why it's so hard these days to find some of the original company logo decals for particular types of scale models. The mfg. must get permission from the company who owns the rights to whatever it is. Ford, Chevrolet, etc.

[Jack12477]

Dan, get a copy of the Fair Use Act and wave it under their nose and tell them it falls under that.

The key test under Fair Use seems to be 1.) is it a reasonable number of copies requested, 2.) is it for your own use in research, or critiquing an article or work of art, making a model, 3.) are you the purchaser of the copyright piece (e.g., book).

 

But as Jim Lad points out this is an international forum and international copyright law may differ from US Copyright law - so be careful and when it doubt get legal advice from a Copyright lawyer.

[Jack12477]

Now here is another layman's take on it...if the original artist or owner does not take action to stop illegal use of their copyright material, they can actually lose their rights to it. At least that's what I've been given to understand when asking why it's so hard these days to find some of the original company logo decals for particular types of scale models. The mfg. must get permission from the company who owns the rights to whatever it is. Ford, Chevrolet, etc.

 

That applies very heavily to Trademarks and company logos are generally Trademarks which is a different protection under Copyright. And yes they must be vigorously defended. Famous case is Refrigerator - lost it Trademark protection. That's why Xerox keeps publishing ads telling people not to say I'm going to xerox something but rather say make a Xerox copy or photocopy something.

 

I'm not sure if mere Copyright is that vigorous but I'm way out of my league on that nuance.

[Jack12477]

Shiloh, see this link on length of Copyright Protection

Edited January 23, 2016 by Jack12477

[Matrim]

K, tidied up the digression into the 'copier return' as it was not on topic and the op removed their original post (perhaps for obvious reasons).

[Jack12477]

Per, in an earlier post [now deleted] you described an issue you had with a photo processing lab's clerk refusing to print digital images from a memory card you had, even tho the photos were your own.

 

My Pentax DSLR has a feature that will store a Copyright in the Properties section of the digital image, it clearly shows the word COPYRIGHT followed by my name.  See if your digital camera has that feature; some of the smaller point-and-shoot digital cameras do not have it {my Canon Powershot is one]. It will prevent a similar issue in the future. The information stays with the digital image even when transferred from camera to computer or Thumb-drive.

[shiloh]

Don't care who you are, copyright protection should never exceed the effort and expense that the holder has placed into making a claim of protection. Really think the word copyright, will have any meaning more than ego when everyone has those words or a symbol automatically placed on everything they do. Reaches a point where it becomes graffiti. Making the effort required to obtain a patent, the same for obtaining a copyright that is in recorded in the public record, should provide defensible protection for a period of 20 years, no longer. Does not take long for anything that is overdone to become useless, so change the laws so copyrighting is more than just hoping for a windfall or a method of saying hooray for me. Been shot at and had rocks thrown at me, 'let the games begin', my opinion on this matter is embedded.

jud

[mtaylor]

Jud,

 

Given the way things are, laws trump opinion.   So we gotta' deal with the laws.   

[Chuck]

If you didnt create it....you have no claim to it .....and you shouldnt profit from it.  If you want to use it...you must pay the person who created it or ask their permission to use it...simple rules in society.   Period

 

Unless you reach out to the creator, and make amends for not having the skills or creativity to think it up yourself.  Otherwise its no different than you breaking into my home and stealing from me.    Those people are called parasites and thieves with small brains unable to innovate on their own.   I personally loathe these self-serving, greedy individuals...

 

...and anyone who thinks otherwise because they might be too cheap to pay for the original or two lazy to ask permission....the willingness to support these parasites is just as bad.....and the law is not on their side thank heavens...at least not in this country...you could however move to China.

 

Locking this because its just going round and round.....and remember, even though we do have international members on this forum, it is based in the good ole U. S. of A.    

 

This topic was not created to open a discussion on copyrights.  It was created to define the NRG Policy.  The NRG will always protect the rights of the creator  and their wishes and not those of the profiteer. Members can have a different opinion but understand that all members not adhering to the policy and choosing to post or use copyrighted material obtained without proper compensation or permission from the authors...... will be warned and then finally banned if repeatedly in violation.

 

Chuck